Hacker News Reader

Comment by Matsta | Hacker News Reader

I think what people outside New Zealand don't realise is that not many Kiwi's really give a damn about the new flag at all.

There's definitely a few people that voice their opinions about it, but the majority of them don't really care.

I think regardless of what flag gets chosen, people will still use the old flag and it will take literally years before flags get updated on websites, or it will get completely ignored and we'll end up reverting back to our current flag down the track.

Another thing to note, is that we don't have the same level of Patriotism that America has. You don't see NZ flags wherever you go, maybe outside some government buildings, but it is rare to see a flag in a residential area in someone's front yard.

View on HN

Speaking as a NZer who's parents have a flag flying high outside their house (rural, with B&B), I disagree. My parents love countries where the flag is flown proudly - Canada being a great example where it's everywhere to be seen, Bhutan even more so. But my parents don't feel the same, mostly because they don't feel particularly patriotic about the current Kiwi flag. They partly fly it because they wish there was some sort of patriotism associated with it and they feel that flying it might help that, but partly just because it helps guests find their house when they're staying at the B&B.

Given the NZ flag's Union Jack and very close resemblance to the Australian flag I can understand why people don't feel too strongly about the current state of affairs. There's nothing evocative, nothing that feels distinctive to NZ. How many NZ flags do you see being waved at sporting events compared to silver ferns and the like? Almost none. Based on that alone I think it's high time we shrugged off the flag's colonial roots and changed it to something that's uniquely NZ. It might take a while for people to adjust to the change (after all, people generally don't like change), but in the long run people will support it just because it's truly ours.

The comment you were replying to didn't examine why people don't fly flags in front of their houses merely stated that they don't. I can't see how you could disagree with that - it's very self evidently true. He also stated that most New Zealander's don't really care about the flag. Poll data also strongly backs this up.

In terms of subjective opinions, however, OK yes you might feel that it would be nice if people in New Zealand flew their flag more and/or were more patriotic generally. You're definitely entitled to your opinion. Personally as a kiwi the common sense lack of patriotism and/or nationalism is one of the things I like best about the place. It relates to a general no-nonsense pragmatism that I find a breath of fresh air after years in the united states where simply pointing out that maybe the US could learn a thing or two from other countries (in certain areas, not including pizza, software or spaceflight of course) is met with emotion instead of rationality.

I don't get the resemblance to the Australian flag because nz registered its flag years before australia did. So technically the Australian flag resemblabes our own.

Regardless as a kiwi I wish they would leave the damn flag alone. This is as bad as wanting to give the north and south island official names. Instead of just calling them the north and south island.

They also don't give a damn about the old flag at all, which really is the problem. My parents had a flagpole and they never once flew the NZ flag on it. I think a little patriotism is deserved: NZ is a pretty good place to live. We don't need to go overboard but we're one of the few places on earth that struggles to work up enthusiasm in the first place so we're in no danger of being a little America.

Which makes the current selection of silver ferns and red peak the most tragic thing of all about this. It has just enough veneer of democracy to mislead people into making it a left/right war and the end result is that we'll have to wait another 20-30 years to do something that gets support from across the board, regardless of our two previous PMs being in favor of changing our defaced ensign.

The same is true of most countries.

This being said, NZ should change their flag, as should all countries with the Union Jack in the canton. Simply to be more inclusive; NZ is a 'melting pot' country, and the Union Jack represents only one demographic. The current flag design is also a little too complex to be a good flag. It doesn't need the levels of near-hysteria that some people get to in any flag debate, but a change should be on the cards.

It's just a pity that all the contesting options suck, including the 'latecomer'...

Possibly after a crescent, the Union Jack canton is represented in one of the most diverse sets of national and regional flags, and once flew over a quarter of the earth's surface. Hard to think of a flag to better represent a melting pot!

That's like saying the Nazi flag is a great flag to represent European unification, because once it flew over most of Europe.

That's ridiculous and not at all analogous. The British Empire is not without its faults, but countries such as New Zealand were enthusiastic British subjects for decades. The Third Reich enjoyed few French supporters and only for a few years at that. (Having said that, I don't entirely agree with the 'melting pot' comparison either.)

Ah. We're moving the goalposts from "a quarter of the earth's surface" back down to "the country of New Zealand". Gotcha. And if length of time spent is the deciding factor, why isn't a Maori design used, given that the Maori have been there since the 13th century? Given that the Maori managed to fight the world's superpower to a standstill over that land, I'd count that as 'enthusiastic' as well.

I'm not shitting on the UK and it's age of empire. I'm saying that the Union Jack is no longer relevant for (most of) the countries that have it in their canton. The argument of "Hey, the UK used to own a lot of places a long time ago, NZ included!" is a pretty weak reason to keep the jack on the flag. Kiwis should have a flag that represents them - all of them - without a section that refers to an obsolete political structure from the literal other side of the planet.

Look, I agree that the union jack is a poor representation of NZ, and that it should probably be changed, and that it's unfair to represent a colonial legacy and little else, including Maori culture.

But the analogy to the Third Reich just doesn't work. Some countries didn't hesitate to throw off British imperialism - but the white majority of Canada, Australia, NZ and other Commonwealth countries valued their British identity. That never occurred under Nazism, because German colonists never really existed, and certainly never formed a majority.

Including the union jack on the NZ flag is bad, but it's utterly incomparable to including the swastika flag on the French Tricolore.

Bringing up countries formed by British descendants as examples of how the British Empire was harmless is like saying that countries such as Austria and Czechoslovakia were enthusiastic German subjects. What does that have to do with the majority that weren't?

Most countries that fly it are either inside or still part of a club called the Commonwealth that celebrates their shared heritage, and many maintain the UK royal family as their head of state.

People tend to flip the bozo switch on people using Nazi analogies because generally they're ludicrous.

About that Union Jack in the canton - should Hawaii change its flag too?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com