Final update on the JetBrains Toolbox announcement | Hacker News Reader

Final update on the JetBrains Toolbox announcement

blog.jetbrains.com

189 pointsazurelogic47 comments

Earlier post on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10170089

430 points & 495 comments (many not very nice)

Now everyone is quiet? How about some love here. This is awesome. MS is going with an "All your data is belonging to us" model; we all complain; nothing changes. Out of the blue, Google shuts down another service; we all complain; nothing changes.

JetBrains, good on you. Way more than you had to do, and did it with class. Three cheers for JetBrains!

My thoughts too, 7 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10239008 not many comments either. Come on, you were mad because you didn't like it, and now? I assume the silence means you are happy, come on! Show some love.

Why praise someone for doing the thing they should have done in the first place? That's like congratulating a cop for not beating up a random pedestrian.

Actually, that's not even completely accurate - it's more like praising a car salesman for not charging you that extra $2,000 that you caught him tacking on.

People should be praising themselves for complaining so loudly that they affected a positive change.

What I am praising is the fact they listened to their customer feedback, and came back with a plan that they feel is "better" and addresses many of the issues their customers had.

I am not sure what you mean by "doing the thing they should have done in the first place", What was the thing "they should have done"?

They did their own market analysis, they did what they thought was right at the time, their userbase disagreed, they incorporated feedback and adjusted.

This is exactly what I want companies I support to do.

If you are mad at them for not reading your mind as to how you want them to run their business, that seems a bit silly.

I'm not mad at all. I just disagree that they should be praised for seeking rent and then reversing their decision. Where is the merit in that?

The move to subscription has not been reverted. What's been done is adjustments to address some concerns customers had. And this has been done in response to customer concerns.

Yeah, they did reverse it because now you can own the product after paying for a year's worth of rent.

That's completely different from only being able to rent the product. But either way, there's still nothing praise-worthy here.

Seems like a reasonable model, but I'm still surprised at how bad the previously announced strategy was. I think it's great that they listened to their customers in this case, but the fact that so many people at the company were in favor of the previous strategy still does raise some concerns for me.

Consumers, for the most part, genuinely don't give a shit what happens to their data. It's sad but true. There was barely a blip when iCloud was hacked, just as one of many examples. The outcry was the minority there.

As for Google shutting down a service: that's probably because it was a free service and wasn't making them any money. Was it stupid to shut it down instead of charging for it? Probably. But Google makes stupid business decisions pretty regularly, and they have the right to do so.

In this case, the majority of people crying out were JetBrains customers. This isn't impressive, it's just baseline common sense.

This post has only been up for an hour on HN, but there are 800+ comments on the blog post itself.

Yay?!

I didn't have a problem with the way they were pricing before. It matched nearly every other service I use, and it would have cost less (I guess webstorm cost a whole $20 more a year!). I just assumed that all of the people who were complaining before were the standard "Let's complain about things on the internet" people.

Hence why they aren't showing up here to celebrate... they didn't actually care. Every dev I know IRL that uses JB software didn't care. 90% of them have it purchased for them by their company. I'm one of those who owns his own license, and I still don't care.

In a place that is so startup-centric, I can't believe that there is so much pushback against startup-like pricing.

In the other threads I'd have worried about being down-voted, but those individuals are likely busy creating controversy in some other thread.

Exactly! This had to be one of the stupidest manufactured controversies I had seen.

It's cool they listened and changed it I guess, but the subscription hate thing is ridiculous. Maybe some of these developers should step back and look at their own companies offerings before they start screaming... almost all of us are working on subscription software.

> In a place that is so startup-centric, I can't believe that there is so much pushback against startup-like pricing

That would only makes sense if JetBrains were a startup. No one likes startup-like pricing for the sake of it- even on HN. Do you want 'startup-like pricing' for your car? I for one didn't like the pricing regime because it was retrogressive and changed what I understood to be a purchase into a short-notice rental.

Given JetBrains has been around for 15+ years, and given that it was a change in the model in moving to subscription, it was aimed to make the transition as smooth as possible for existing customers and that is why they get the 2nd year free.

I'm burnt out. The change was horrible, and now they've walked it back -- yay, I guess, but why did they do something so customer hostile in the first place?

JetBrains lost my trust, and I'm going to keep an eye on competitors.

That's a funny way of looking at it. "I'm sorry baby, I'll never hit you again!" You know the old saying: There are no victims, only volunteers.

As Mr. Stallman would say, proprietary software is for suckers. You guys using it are volunteering for such abuse. Nevermind the sweet promises. It will happen again. It always does.

I'm glad they found a way to not buckle on the subscription model. I think having an option to get started on intellj for $10 for a month will really help build their customer base long term. No more $200 sticker shock.

And since I'm going to upgrade yearly either way, I don't mind it getting cheaper...

My only issue with their new licensing was the lack of perpetual license, now that they added it even being 1 year behind is a good compromise if I ever have to stop paying, but considering the discount of 40% after the 2nd year it becomes even cheaper than the previous model (at least for intellij).

I'm glad they listened, and modified.

One thing that should be heartening to Jetbrains is that people like their products enough to really care about licensing. Its betters than having everyone just quietly walk away to another product.

With the perpetual license, this isn't really that different than the old model for people buying one year at a time. For me, it addresses the main issues I had with the previous plan (IDE no longer working after you stop payment or without Internet connection), albeit with some of the most complex license terms I've ran across.

I'd say it's pretty different than before. You used to buy a license and it came with 1 year of updates and you had a perpetual license to the current version when your updates ran out. Now you pay for a year+ of updates and then you get a perpetual license for a year+ old version.

Having to downgrade at the end of the subscription sounds like a huge PITA. I really want to like subscriptions, but the overhead from declaring taxes on so many $10 invoices is annoying as well. :( I'll just wait for IDEA 15 and then stick with my current (paid) license.

You can purchase annual subscriptions also.

If you pay ahead of time, you're getting a one year license with one year's worth of updates and a perpetual license. This is exactly the way it works now.

You misunderstood what they said then.

(With the new plan) If I purchase a 1 year subscription, then I get a perpetual license for the version AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. Any upgrades I get during the year go away if I don't subscribe for more time.

Here is a link to help you understand: https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/204784622

It seems like a fairly reasonable compromise that addresses the concerns of both parties -- JetBrains needs a recurring revenue stream to support updates (fixes to version at time of purchase/subscription) and upgrades (new versions), while the customer needs the right to continue to use the software they purchased.

Yes, the customer doesn't get to keep the latest version if they stop their subscription, but JetBrains needs some reasonable hook to cover support costs, and quite frankly, their software is relatively cheap in the commercial market and generally works as expected.

It also addresses the concerns of those who claim "they'd be willing to pay more". If you decide to stop your update subscription, you have the option of getting a perpetual license for the latest version at that point by simply buying a year's worth of updates.

If there's a better option that keeps JetBrains in business and customers happy, I'm sure many would like to hear it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no guarantee that the version you'd be downgraded to would be able to read project files from the current version, right? So if JetBrains decides to up the subscription price by a huge amount, you'd potentially still have to pay for a year at the new, extortionate price in order to be able to continue to build your existing code - and worse, they could remove the option to actually buy the version you're using altogether before you get the chance to do so.

I believe most of the concerns you raise here are addressed in the blog post.

The better option would be to simply disable further updates at the end of the year instead of forcing a downgrade.

People who wanted future improvements would still be incentivized to pay for them, Jetbrains would be incentivized to continue improving the software so that people would want to keep purchasing, and nobody's current working setup would be held hostage at the end of the year!

As I said, this seems like a reasonable compromise; JetBrains needs some sort of hook to support the development of newer versions.

Otherwise, JetBrains incurs the cost of producing a new version, but then has no revenue stream to support it.

In addition, if you keep upgrading every year, they give you a lower price than you would have gotten before. However, if you don't stay current, then yes, you'll pay more than you used to.

JetBrains hasn't really raised their prices in five years and meanwhile the cost of living has gone up. Things can't be completely in favour of either party; there has to be a meeting in the middle.

For what it's worth, I have no affiliation and I had let my license to IntelliJ lapse so was one of the aggrieved parties when they first announced the new pricing. This announcement however satisfied me enough that I decided to renew.

From your link:

"You will receive perpetual fallback licenses for every version you’ve paid 12 consecutive months for."

Look at the third example. This seems to be about on par with what is offered now. Depending upon how much their release cycle changes and how many features make it into each major version.

Edit: spelling!

This is how a company should do things. Good on you JetBrains for listening and responding.

Can't argue now :-)

While I don't like that model, from a business standpoint, it worked extremely well for Adobe (someone pulled a chart the other day showing Adobe revenue skyrocketing since the introduction of creative cloud and the subscription model).

It's no surprise many more businesses selling desktop software might be tempted to do this in the future.

Whatever makes the most money is the correct thing to do. How often do we hear something to this effect? :-(

Also, creative cloud, creative cloud, creative cloud:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaR2jR-RpYo

This makes me very happy. I've been a JetBrains user since as far back as 2005 when IntelliJ was by far the best option for Java development. I've continued on with RubyMine. Worth every single dime.

this is a very good system, now I wish Adobe did the same: it would definitely not be feasible to give you a full license for PS+LR after a year of $10/mo however they could easily do something like

- every software has a 'price', your monthly subscription gives you credits, which you can redeem for 'permanent' versions of the software you want at the same version as when you started subscribing (so downgrade, same as here)

- if you own a previous version of the software (say you own full CS6) then you get a discount so that after a year of monthly subscriptions you get a perpetual license for the version when you started the subscription (making it the same as if you had bought a boxed upgrade)

this kind of model I think would make it a lot more palatable for people to get onboard with SAAS as you always have the choice of keeping to pay to be with the latest and greatest or stopping to pay and staying with a previous version if it works for you.

The only issue I see is that there has to be really good forwards compatibility between the versions, because if I am subscribing and am on V2 and save my project, then end the subscription and get a permanent V1, I should be able to open my V2-saved-work without issues.

It's not great that when you stop paying monthly, your product reverts to version it was 1 year ago. I feel like that's a bit underhanded.

Your product reverts back to the version you've fully paid for via subscription.

Amazing the amount effort they put into their products - even Google didn't want to compete with them and instead built Android studio on top.

I loved the model since as a Developer who gots a Laptop and only gets the most necessary tools (which are paid) and IntelliJ isn't necessary cause of other Options.

I need to buy it for my self (i own the laptop). And know I can afford JetBrains since I can pay monthly, which I couldn't.

Thanks JetBrains, And thanks for the offline option :)

P.S.: I love this one: > If you’re paying on a monthly basis, the software will > need to perform checks to validate the license using > JetBrains Account. If it cannot connect to the Internet > for MORE THAN 30 days, it will show you a message and > provide a grace time for connection.

I hope you don't make more checks and 30 days Offline is enough for me :)

Very confusing transition, but https://www.jetbrains.com/toolbox/ is really useful to figure out what you will pay.

I think it works out in the end. For me, initial cost would be $250 for the initial two years, $149 for the third year. So I would pay $50 more over three years (and every year onwards) to have access to ALL their products. I think this is a good step. I've previously been in the awkward spot where I chose between PyCharm and PhpStorm because otherwise I'd have to pay in full for both and didn't want the swiss knife IDE.

Thanks, Jetbrains!

Said it on the post about this last week, but thanks for listening. I was one of the vocal critics of the original subscription plan, this new one is something that I can live with.

This is great. I think the option to revert to a perpetual license will be a nice amount of market discipline for the team and keep them from stagnating.

I actually appreciate the subscription model and I hope that it will enable them to support new frameworks more quickly. Front-end development is moving so quickly that yearly upgrades are not fast enough. For example, JSX is just now available in TypeScript, but WebStorm 10 doesn't support it and WebStorm 11 is still in EAP.

Great news for those that had an issue with the plan!

I was fine with paying the monthly fee but am happy the company listened.

I think this is an excellent compromise.

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10239008

Forcing people to downgrade instead of just disabling updates sucks. It sounds like a frustrating hassle. After their previous announcement, I switched to Atom and I've actually been pretty happy with it.

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