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Comment by loceng | Hacker News Reader

Some stream of consciousness writing: I would add to that that the body, brain, mind are in part pressure-based systems and normally if all systems are functioning and energy is flowing as it needs to - then pressure in one or multiple areas won't rise, however if those energies aren't flowing for whatever possible causes - then problems can occur and worsen over time as the brain has its natural systems that will keep evolving and applying pressure; if "you" understand Qi (chi) and how energy can become stagnant in the body, this may be easier to comprehend -- stagnant energy, blocks or buildups, in my experience leads to actual pain sensations in the body, and a simple acupuncture session can help alleviate or eliminate the pains (until perhaps the energy buildsup again); this doesn't necessarily mean it will reduce the baseline of existing causes, that would require more work.

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And here we find direct evidence of the effects of over-consumption of cannabis.

I laughed. No, just a very vague, disconnected, unreferenced part to a much bigger construct that I'll eventually have time to write out - so it will at least appear a little more grounded in reality, and science.

President Obama, Carl Sagan, all of your favorite musicians, etc, etc, etc.

Have what? Over consumed cannabis? Probably not.

Qi does not exist.

So, that's your theory?

Can you prove that? There is evidence to the contrary.

The Wikipedia article for it shows only skepticism regarding it, with no professional sources arguing for its existence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi#Scientific_view

Could you show the evidence to the contrary?

Also, potentially beneficial effects of acupuncture do not imply anything about the existence of qi.

Depends on what you mean by existence? Detectable by modern instrumentation? What if Qi is an extremely useful system of mental organization, allowing practitioners to fine-tune their own body's operation. There is plenty of evidence that this is possible (see mindfullness / trancendental meditation) which have concrete isomorphisms (so to speak) to the concept of Qi.

Qi doesn't exist the same way that software doesn't exist. It's an abstraction that labels an emergent phenomenon. Software is made up if zeros and ones which actually don't exist but are labels we give to certain states of organized matter and energy. The same goes for Qi. It's the perception of a composite of the various aspects of a body's state as well as mental awareness of that state, such as relaxation in a specific part of the body. It's more detailed than explained here, but that's the jist.

Qi is neither necessary nor sufficient to explain or describe any physical, emotional, cognitive, social or "spiritual" phenomena. It is certainly not emergent (nor is software). To paraphrase Dawkins, you already don't believe in homunculi, aether, or many other previous attempts to explain our experience of being ourselves. Qi is just another thing to not believe, try it.

> Qi is neither necessary nor sufficient to explain or describe any physical, emotional, cognitive, social or "spiritual" phenomena

Care to be more specific? How do the terms "necessary" and "sufficient" come into play? It's not a binary "all" or "nothing" distinction. If something helps you even a little bit, then it's valuable. An easy to grasp model of your body's state can help you maintain awareness of that state, and thus improve it.

Also, what do homunculi, aether, etc have to do with Qi? Qi is a useful abstraction. I've never claimed that it exists as an objective property of the universe.

Hi there.

Sure --

"Necessary" and "sufficient" are technical terms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency

You described Qi as "the perception of a composite of the various aspects of a body's state as well as mental awareness of that state". I'm saying Qi is neither necessary nor sufficient to perceive these things.

Similarly, I could say "Aether carries the mental awareness of my body's state". Or "Tiny homuncli exist in my brain, and it's the job of one of them to make me aware of my body's state". These things are neither necessary nor sufficient to explain awareness of ones own body. Consequently they could detract from explanations that may be genuinely useful.

It seems difficult to point to exactly what Qi is, and how it's different from similarly vague postulations.

Whether your idea of Qi helps you or not wasn't mentioned in your previous comment, so I wasn't responding to that.

If Qi is simply an "abstraction" then we can call it whatever we want. Why call it Qi?

If Qi is not "an objective property of the universe" is it entirely a subjective property of whoever believes in it? If that's the case, I'd struggle to understand how "useful" it is.

Certainly, I can see that things like self-awareness, relaxation, mindfulness, stillness and so on are "useful". They can be potent, restorative, healthful, etc, and we can demonstrate those effects through experiment. Unfortunately concepts like Qi tend to unravel in the light of experiment because they are so indefinable. Or more accurately: the definition constantly seems to shift.

Not everything is definable, of course. I have no issue with finding beauty, wonder and awe in life. In fact -- that's probably one important element in living well.

Ultimately I don't particularly mind if you believe in something called Qi, although I find it odd, and I hope you have a happy life :)

This sort of thing is taught to school children in China, but completely foreign to Western audiences. We might test if these associations vary across cultures. Might Chinese people smoke more yet have a lower incidence of psychosis?

You also have to look at the person's beginning state of health - all aspects of their health, not just physical and some general overview of emotional/mental state. Perhaps knowing the differences of how they approach health-concerns is important as well - even looking at their diet.

I don't know of any tests that would adequately determine the holistic health of someone. You have to define what health means as well.

Psychological flexibility is a term that may come into the mainstream more in the future - the ability for the mind to be more fluid between states; all-or-nothing thinking vs. "I'm happy and sad [at the same time]."

Perhaps psychoactives lead to expanding the capabilities of ones' mind, expanding ones' ability to think, creating new connections - which includes opening up their creativity. If there is some block, whether it is a coping mechanism or other, then what happens when a coping mechanism in a brain that's been developing further for a decade or longer with that mechanism in place - and then you change the environment suddenly? Whatever that coping mechanism was helping you cope with is all of the sudden potentially broken or removed -- what will happen to the rest of the systems and pathways? Many systems will potentially all of a sudden experience something they never have experienced before - perhaps with schizophrenia being on the extreme side of fluidity of mental energy being more rigid - so certain systems shutdown and become rigid and which would be on a spectrum of rigidness of course.

Neural pathways will have a normal rate of connecting throughout the brain, all of the sudden changing that will cause unexpected connections. Some of those connections could have been missing because of the coping mechanisms that were in place. Most coping mechanisms protect from perceived emotional pain or physical pain and are learned because "I did X and felt Y - so I will no longer do X [or keep it in my awareness, e.g. conditioning]" - which where the understanding could be wrong. This would put a person more in all-or-nothing thinking instead of a fluid state that having more than 1 possibility in your mind would allow for.

Perhaps it is certain thinking structures are learned as rigid then this will evolve into problems, and depending on which and how many structures are more rigid will determine what issues they will have and how severe they impact behaviour. It could be genetic for what thinking structures are possible or it could a coping mechanism from whatever situation occurred. Autism for example can be seen as a developmental delay or block, and depending where one is at on the spectrum, different therapies can have a substantial impact on unlocking the developmental block and allowing the child/person to continue their natural development evolution.

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