There has been some discussion around the safety of the heating elements themselves, specifically what happens when the metals get vaporized and enter the lungs/blood stream [0]
[0]http://www.abc15.com/news/local-news/investigations/are-e-ci...
Edit: also worth noting that cheap no-name ones are frequently soldering iron elements housed in random plastic or wood cases and have no consideration for this whatsoever.
In general its probably quite a bit safer than combusting plant material, assuming the person that made the BHO did it correctly.
Most of the usage is done with a glass bong, with the metal "nail" used as a method of pressing the wax to the heated glass.
From the perspective of your lungs it's most certainly more healthy.
There are numerous studies indicating that THC could be a neurotoxin, such as this[1] recent one (conversely there is evidence to suggest that CBD may be a neuroprotector). Vaping marijuana typically results in higher dosages of cannaboids, especially with paraphernalia such as a volcano.
A logical deduction of the two shows that THC could be extremely unhealthy if vaped. There is no evidence one way or another to suggest that CBD may or may not specifically counteract the neurotoxicity of THC, but I have myself stopped vaping sativas and only vape the cheaper stuff.
I think most people who have this sort of free-market disposition are moderate enough to think that labeling an arsenic apple is reasonable.
Moreover, and far more importantly, it seems evident that, once government starts making these sorts of decisions, it quickly makes them only for its own interests.
I'm not asking tricky questions here, your position is like saying the Earth is flat. I mean, due to the example we're using, apple with arsenic in them but labelled with this information, it's like a very extreme position. Normally it would be a straw man - nobody would seriously suggest that this is okay.
Comparing a reasonably widely-held, studied, and written-about economic model to the flat earth society? You give me nothing to go on here. Perhaps you're young and haven't read much yet - I don't know. I suggest a history of economics course in college.
As for your very first question: the government's interests aren't terribly hard to identify, especially in the case of the USA, where the government is a hegemonic empire. It seeks to enrich its corporate sponsors, expand its capacity to exact violence against its detractors, and find equilibrium in its body politic via panem et circenses. It's reasonably transparent I think.
As for your slippery slope bit about being able to sell unlabeled arsenic: I like what works. The current system clearly isn't working for most people for most purposes. My understanding is that drug overdoses were at record lows during the period after the Pure Food and Drug Act but before drug prohibition. I take this, and other data like it, as evidence that this configuration is a decent balance.
obviously no one wants the status quo to change to that. (not even you, even though you aren't sure.) like, literally nobody. (even people who say they do, don't actually want to have to start reading labels on their fruit to make sure they won't die.)
there's almost nothing to go on in this discussion, we're talking - only - about such an extreme viewpoint.
Anyway what interests of the "hegemonic empire" does the fact that I can eat an apple without reading its label and not die, serve? You can't say "oh that's easy - the hegemonic empire doesn't want its stormtroopers - that would be its population - to die, because they can't fight for hte hegemonic empire or pay their taxes" because if that were the case it would ALSO be in the interests of the "hegemonic empire" to ban grossly unhealthy foods so people don't die of heart disease - the U.S. has the lowest life expectancy among rich countries in part for this reason: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe... But they don't do that, or many other things.
there's just no answer to why my grocery store isn't allowed to sell arsenic-laced apples as long as they're labelled, except the COMPLETELY OBVIOUS one that the government does its basic job and protects people from this thing. there's just no other answer. the mental contortions you would have to go through to believe that they're "seeking to enrich their corporate sponsors" and that's why you can't sell arsenic-laced apples is just - I mean, come on.
The reason you would have to put "some thought" into answering my questoins - even though they're super simple - is the same as why a flat-earther would have to put "some thought" into answering the question of why someone can broadcat an image of a spinning, round, Earth, from space. This requires some explanation, because the idea that the Earth is actually flat is so obviously untenable.
I was on the debate team in high school, out of these two statements: "Resolved: the Earth is a flat disc, not a round sphere-like object in space" and "Resolved: it ought to be legal to sell apples that are or might be arsenic-laced and deadly to consumers as long as a label is affixed to them informing consumers of this fact" it is absolutely easier to argue the affirmative of the former. It's just sooo easy, all you have to explain is a few images from space, everything else people don't have any personal experience with. Even the bible is on your side. There are people who believe this http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Flat_Earth - on the other hand, everyone has purchased apples. You won't find anyone who would have been okay with them being arsenic-laced, as long as there is a label on them. It's just not something anyone can actually argue - which is why you go off on this totally irrelevant tangent about enriching corporate sponsors.
this entire thread with me discusses nothing but why the government shouldn't deregulate selling poisoned food. That's it. it's obvious. completely obvious.
Excuse me if there is some vitriol, but I'm not okay with someone arguing a position that I have to start reading labels on my fruits to make sure I don't die. It's not a position you can take. It's why you had originally gotten downvoted when you asked "in theory, why not". me dying of fruit is not a small price to pay for your right to test some alternative economic theory. you're arguing for my death. (or massive, massive personal inconvenience.)
you know, you can just admit you're wrong. Why not just reply and say: "You're right, it's obvious to me why labeling fruit shouldn't let you lace them with poison. I was really just thinking about other cases, my apologies." in other cases, sure you could be right.
Just a couple quick things and then I really have to dip from this thread, at least for now:
* You are using the word "strawman," but I don't think you actually mean strawman. I think you are trying to describe a slippery slope. Strawman is a fallacy wherein one debater misrepresents the position of another, and then uses this weaker misrepresentation as the basis for a response. In fact, it's exactly what you are doing when you say "oh that's easy - the hegemonic empire doesn't want its stormtroopers - that would be its population - to die, because they can't fight for hte hegemonic empire or pay their taxes" - this is a position I didn't take, don't hold, and which weakens your position to argue against. You are talking to a wall.
* You say:
> I'm not okay with someone arguing a position that I have to start reading labels on my fruits to make sure I don't die.
...and I'm just given pause because it's almost like you aren't living in the same world as the rest of us.
You do need to read labels. There are poisons in food. People do die from food - quick, sickening deaths like from e-coli in fast food and, in much greater numbers, slow, miserable deaths from obesity and diabecity. Do you not realize that these are the main causes of death in our society? I mean... is it possible that this just hasn't occurred to you? You made direct reference to it in your comment, but the points seems to have been lost on you.
So, on one hand, the FDA has failed to stop toxic food from becoming the biggest cause of premature death in society.
On the other hand, the FDA, along with its state counterparts, have stopped low-cost, healthy food from entering the food supply and threatening the quasi-monopolies held by a few small, giant corporate agriculture sponsors.
To pull out just one example - but you can find more every day across the country - just down the road from where I sit in Michigan: the Michigan Dept. of Agriculture actually forced a farm co-op to dump hundreds of gallons of milk and to destroy over a thousand free-range eggs because they were deemed for 'sale' instead the property of the co-op:
http://www.wnem.com/story/26116053/farmers-forced-to-dump-pr...
I want to give you the benefit of the doubt here; maybe you just didn't realize these things were happening. But it's bad. The food is bad, and it's mostly various arms of the government that are making it so.
And please, bottle the acid with your stormtroopers bit. It's much simpler than that, of course: it's about money. There's no complex shroud of intent here. Huge agricultural companies pay the government to make their products the only game in town. It's really not much more complicated than that.
This is par for the course; there is no example in history of government making the food supply safer, and even less so in the center of empire. As a habit, empires push unhealthy food and drugs on their own populous and that of their colonies. This is the basic dynamic of the opium war, of alcohol prohibition, and of drug prohibition today.
At the end of the day, I prefer that it be legal for people to sell ridiculous, snake-oily products, even unto properly labeled arsenic apples, then to have to choose between subsidized poison and scarce real food.
Arsenic apples are not a threat to food security. Nobody will even try to sell them. And if they do, nobody will buy them. Hill High Dairy being shut down is a threat to food security.
These are not hypotheticals; these are the actual choices we have to make about the role, if any, for government to play in assisting adults in securing healthy food.
you've written a lot just now - but it completely moves the goalposts. You think we're discussing something more, or different, than what we're discussing. We're discussing selling arsenic-laced apples. You're discussing something different now, but here's why I said you were acting like a living, breathing, moving straw man upthread:
Let's say I were debating government regulation of food with someone, and I said: "There are people who say '"it's OK to sell an arsenic laced Apple as long as it has a warning on it.", writing "Of course I can. If it's labeled, why not? Maybe somebody wants an arsenic apple; I don't know.". I would now like to address this point...."
Then my opponent would interrupt me: "Objection! Wait! Nooooo, that is a straw man! Nobody on Earth seriously believes it's okay to sell arsenic appples as long as they're labelled. I didn't say this! Nobody said this! This is not a position anyone has. You are arguing against a straw man! You're arguing against a wall."
Yet, here we are. I quoted you stating that position. That's what we're discussing. Whether it's okay to sell arsenic-laced apples "as long as they're labelled."
--> Perhaps we're agreed that it's not okay, and that this shouldn't suddenly be legal?
You've raised interesting points about e coli, about unhealthy foods that cause a slow death. Personally, I haven't said anything in this thread about regulation and labeling of these things, except perhaps that the government isn't currently doing it. (not a normative statement.)
You gloss over this as if it weren't kind of a huge deal.
This assumption is breaking a lot of systems in society.
If you think this assumption leads to bad outcomes, pick up a tort law book and read the details of historical cases from when an 'anything goes' mentality was predominant.
I studied this to a non-trivial degree in college during undergrad, though of course not on the level of graduate economic theory or anything. My understanding is that the major markers (such as drug overdose) were at record lows following the Pure Food and Drug Act, a relatively non-intrusive measure that required labeling and some rudimentary testing and inspection, but preceding the FDA and drug prohibition and all the rest.
This seems to comport with the world I watch around me.
Am I wrong about this?
Second, the reason smoking is increasingly banned everywhere is not because we don't allow adults to make up their own mind about smoking but because of the effects on people who decide not to smoke.
I don't want to see a ban like pot or other drugs on vaping. I laugh at vapors, but as long as they are free to do so, I can sleep a little better.
I would prefer it if the companies where regulated on what chemicals they could add to the liquid.
The FDA openly proposes to regulate e-cigarettes and "certain dissolvables that are not 'smokeless tobacco'" http://www.fda.gov/TobaccoProducts/Labeling/ucm388395.htm
Curiously the Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_tobacco_by_the_U... makes no mention of the term "drug delivery system".
We're not talking here about chemicals in general, we're talking about a specific chemical, diacetyl (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacetyl). And we know long-term exposure via inhalation to that chemical can cause life-threatening respiratory conditions, such as the "popcorn lung" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronchiolitis_obliterans) that workers who made microwave popcorn toppings that included diacetyl came down with from inhaling it in their workplaces.
Do you seriously think the presence in a product intended to be inhaled repetitively over long periods of such a chemical does not warrant, at minimum, some kind of warning?
> Should they ban adults from making up their own mind?
How many adults, when presented with the word "diacetyl" in tiny print on a product's label, do you think are sufficiently educated to be able to accurately judge the risks of inhaling that product?
Are we really supposed to take a "do your homework, good luck!" approach to products that, when used as the maker intends, will expose the user to significant health risks?
I want an informed, even evangelical society when it comes to comsumption. I want people to be allowed to choose how they live their life, at least privately. If you can be a functioning meth-head, do so. If you can't, die without harming others on your way out.
I know that is a harsh view, but look at the alternative: the present system. We incarcerate individuals for safely smoking a meriad of drugs in the backyard, apartment or stoop. We spend, speaking as an American, $60-80k a year to confine these people. Even if one makes the argument that drugs keep people on welfare, welfare is far cheaper and freer, in the rights sense.
So too this drug. Label it, warn, perhaps even tax, but don't let it be an excuse to prevent vaping. States, in my opinion, are itching for a reason to block this new product. Stop them now. Otherwise how can we innovate to an alternative for tabacco?
Right.... because the heaps of information that gets dumped on you whenever you receive a prescription drug or go in to surgery is oh so helpful.
You are basically advocating for an expansion of this. If a vaporize contains 100 different chemicals, and all of them come along with pages of information, the user won't be able to grok it all and realize that one of them is probably going to seriously screw them in a few years.
I don't know what you expect an informed consumer to look like, but having a person reading a booklet of medical jargon to determine health risks for each drug they take is extremely unrealistic.
So, the government is right here. We need to ban certain chemicals because there is no other way. Life is too complicated as it is.
I think in general adults should be able to make up their minds about ingesting chemicals that might hurt them. However, it makes sense to make an exception -- if the chemical has addictive properties and empirically is likely to have network effects (i.e. in practice it tends to spread through the community), it seems reasonable for the government to step in and regulate the substance in more substantial ways than enforcing disclosure. I'd argue adults don't make choices with respect to these chemicals out of their own free will, but are coerced into consuming them through biological/social rewards mechanisms, and I think it's the government's responsibility to step in.
For example, regulating psilocybin seems like an obviously bad idea (it doesn't seem to be addicting and doesn't devastate communities), where as regulating crystal meth is an obviously good idea.
I don't know where the line is (e.g. what about cocaine? it's addictive and has propensity to spread, but isn't nearly as bad as meth), but that doesn't mean there aren't obvious extremes. I also don't know what the government can do about it (making distribution illegal doesn't seem to work), but philosophically, I don't think it's unreasonable for the government to step in if it can be effective.
Does it? What result are you trying to produce by this legislation?
If you're trying to produce the result that fewer people use X harmful substance, then it absolutely does not make sense to regulate the substance itself. Evidence suggests that regulation merely makes selling the substance more profitable and buying the substance more "edgy", making the substance more dangerous. Instead, it makes sense to provide better programs for treatment and education around the substance, which results in lower usage, higher recovery rates when someone does use it, and less incentives for people to traffic the substance.
But if you're trying to produce profits for prison corporations and further militarize law enforcement, by all means, let's make all substances illegal.
As for being considerate — yes, obviously it's good to be considerate, but that's kind of a platitude until you get into the nitty-gritty details. We all do things that are inconsiderate in some ways. For example, if you eat meat in public, there are might be vegetarians around who find the sight and smell offensive, but I doubt you consider yourself inconsiderate for doing so. I'm not sure exactly where vaping falls in the "doing this in public makes you a jerk" spectrum, but I lean towards thinking it falls closer to wearing heavy perfume than to smoking (since its effects seem to be more similar to that).
I'd just like to see a requirement that all products have a label which lists every ingredient, even if that label is only available online or by mailing the manufacturer. And "natural and artificial flavors" is not an ingredient. "Meets the flammability requirements of the California Bureau of Home Furnishings" is also not an ingredient.
However, labeling doesn't really help people exposed to second-hand whatnot. The smoker/vaper(/perfume-wearer) may find the ingredients to be acceptable, but what about all the people around them? And unfortunately, smokers are not the most considerate bunch.
If every product had to disclose this, then ideally you could recursively query for every component chemical. At that point, not only would banning e-cigs be discussed but also probably many building materials and cleaning products. And we'd be able to ban on a granular level, e.g., any product emitting more than 10 ppm diacetyl.
I very much want to live in a world where the public debates issues from a position of knowledge, rather than positions of deliberate ignorance motivated by tribalistic passions. :(
What I don't want is expanded government. I am honestly tired of adults being treated as children. "Do this. Don't do that. Can you read the sign?" in the words of the song. Teach, inform, foster communication, but don't control a private life.