Comment by patio11 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by patio11 | Hacker News Reader

I'm a twenty-seven year old computer programmer. I mention this so that you don't think I'm biased when I say: twenty-something male techies are some of the worst customers on the face of the earth. I don't know why we spend so much time trying to sell to ourselves.

It is not my intention to criticize any person as an individual here, but let's review: pre-orderers of this product have five dollars on the line. That will not even buy you a value meal at McDonalds these days, but people appear to have gone ballistic that the company they married (i.e. gave five dollars to) might -- wait for it, massive betrayal approaching -- charge money for products they had not previously announced.

The people who cause me the most amount of difficulty are poorer customers (I get a few, mostly older folks on fixed incomes), because a) they assume everyone is out to cheat them and b) any difficulty they have with a $25 transaction represents a Catastrophic Life Event to them whereas people with a bit more in the bank account just put it on the checklist of minor things to address today.

Twenty something techies are a curious bunch, with the purchasing power of employed professionals and the money sensibility of peasants in the middle of a famine. It is madness: we spend our days talking about XYZ got a $N million round of funding and investment advice for the $20,000 made last month and, wait, WAIT, PAY MONTHLY?! I DON'T PAY MONTHLY! Except for my $600 iPhone ($100 a month), Internet access ($60 a month), $15 a month for WoW, $15 a month for Netflix, etc etc but you want me to PAY MONTHLY WTF BBQ.

I was once cheated out of $15 by a phone provider. I spent $500 and a lot of time and went to court to get the money back, which I did. I also got my costs recouped. I have spent more than $500 on karaoke in Asia without blinking. Money does not matter to me, but nobody fucks over Max. I'll chase it down till I get my money back. To quote Arnold: nobody gives me a raw deal.

It has never been about the money.

Story:

At one point, I realized I was fighting a lot of battles over principles that were taking time away from me that could've been used on objectively much better pursuits.

Despite realizing this, I had a hard time cutting it out.

So, I put a post it note on the wall in front of my desk, with big letters - "WIN"

Anyone who came across it misunderstood. They thought it was something competitive. Nuh-uh, just the opposite. Whenever I saw the note, I was forced to ask myself, "Well, what is winning? Is it winning an argument? Or is it spending my time building the best life possible for myself?"

So I got a particularly unjust parking ticket, total BS, for like $60 in Los Angeles. And I'm getting pictures, and all gearing up for a fight, and then I think - "What the fuck am I doing? I could make a couple hundred dollars in the time it takes me to fight this BS." And so I gritted my teeth, paid it, and went and made a couple hundred dollars instead, doing enjoyable work for good people, and then I had more money and less stress.

Yeah, the jerks get $60 of revenue they don't deserve, but my goal isn't to make them lose, it's for me to win. Spending three hours fighting California for $60 is not winning. I understand principles, I'll never let a betrayal or extortion attempt work, but making a fuss over $5 when presumably you could freelance yourself at $35+ per hour is... well, what is winning? Everyone answers the question differently. But it's worth some serious reflection on when there's actions that advance every conscious life goal you have more than whatever the petty nonsense du jour is.

my post-it says "what are you optimizing?"

Righteousness, while a virtue in Confucianism, is seen as performing an act of self-interest in Taoism.

Indeed,

I would recommend Game Theory Evolving by Herb Ginitis. Human beings have a strong, repeat strong bias toward retaliating to maintain fairness. Varies culturally to only a small extent.

Anything that raises the possibility that you'll just be taking off with their money is going to create a strong reaction.

The mistake was taking pre-orders. Never take pre-orders if you're to delay shipping. You'll piss Max (and me, and everyone) off.

I am not twenty-something, btw

Money does not matter to me, but nobody fucks over Max. I'll chase it down till I get my money back. To quote Arnold: nobody gives me a raw deal.

Except they still do. They wind up stealing your time; the most valuable commodity we all have.

I'd say there's a difference between letting someone harm you (including taking up your time) and letting them benefit from harming you.

I agree, but only in situations where that party can harm you again or repeatedly in the same way (e.g. the government, monopolies, polluters). If you can throw a chargeback on some vendor you don't have to patronize ever again (or just accept a small monetary loss), it's worth it if it saves you wasting a ton of precious time.

The slipped schedule and monthly charge for additional features were not the main source of the uproar. The announcement implied that the online reporting advertised as included with the purchase price was now only available at additional cost.

The letter was interpreted as, "Hey, we're running late, sorry. Oh yeah, we're also charging for the sleep report separately now; so, we'll make up for the delay by throwing in some free months that you already were planning on getting and then charging you for the latter months you also thought would be free. You're welcome!"

People felt duped, it's not about the dollar amount it's about trust. WakeMate have since clarified that basic reporting will remain free.

This is spot on. I purchased the WakeMate with the understanding that it was planned to be released in Jan. I am 100% OK with the fact that manufacturing issues is causing a delay in meeting their Jan 25 commitment. Shit happens. And for a 10% commitment on my end, I don't feel at all betrayed due to the push back on date.

It's the whole "Premium Analytics Features FREE for EACH month their delivery is delayed" that rubbed me the wrong way. When I read that, my first reaction was "Wait, did I miss something?". I then went to the wakemate site and saw no mention of this paid plan. That's when I realized I was being taken for a ride. Bait and switch anyone?

This is the response I got last night before any of these HN threads started:

http://twitter.com/wakemate/status/8102380070

It's disingenuous to tell me you have new features when I don't know what your existing features are.

So, I guess we'll see what we end up with.

Actually the site seems to indicate that whatever analysis they do will be made available for free:

"After a night's data is collected, it is automatically uploaded to our servers, analyzed, and made available on the WakeMate Analytics platform."

This implies that the analysis is made available, and no mention of a charge usually implies it's made available for free.

The worst customers you could possibly have are those that have paid a trivial amount (say less than $10) of money.

Just like there is a price-elasticity that has shows a curve that says that any price at all is a drawback to adoption, the customers that pay $100 for something are most of the time not such jerks as the ones that pay $5.

For $5 everybody somehow expects stellar personal service and attention, whereas people that spend $100 are a bit more mature and more likely to see both sides of a story.

In fact, they may simply wait until you are ready to ship.

The fun thing here is that even though both parties are 'in the right' in demanding they get top notch service you may not be able to deliver that service at a pricepoint that is too low. Even for a pre-order you have to make that calculation.

That's why it is a good thing to research your support costs before you commit to a certain price.

At a $5 pre-order you are simply asking for trouble, the barrier to entry is so ridiculously low that you will get a large number of people that will simply cross the threshold that might not have bought your product at full list price at that moment in time.

You essentially sell a promise for $5, if you are not 100% sure of your ability to deliver on that promise you are setting yourself up for a pretty nasty fall.

You essentially sell a promise for $5

Even worse -- you're selling a blank slate, into which the customer gets to inject whatever hopes and aspirations they have about your product. Then, when you don't deliver on the things you never promised anyone and had no clue were expected, you're a dirty lying thief.

Compare this to the experience of the guy who bought the $250 Nook earlier today. He got put through one of the worst CS wringers I've ever read about and kept coming back to get the issue resolved successfully for months prior to snapping. But if you've got $5 (refundable!) skin in the game it had better cure your sleep apnea, make you the heart's desire of all women, toast bread by radiating pure awesome, and cost no more than $1.47 or you'll be on Twitter about it in five seconds of reading the email.

Here's that Nook piece for future reference: http://blog.fsck.com/2010/01/dont-buy-a-nook.html http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1071138

While I agree with your overall sentiment, I think the issue with this particular situation is that Wakemate was not being totally candid about their pricing intentions. Even after the recent announcement, nowhere on their site do they inform the user of the possibility of premium monthly subscriptions. If I were to have just visited their site for the first time, it would be sensible for me to assume that I am getting the entire product/software package for $50. Go see for yourself. I imagine people who did go for the pre-order did so under that now false pretense; so it's perfectly expected to see this sort of reaction. You are promised "the WakeMate, the cell phone accessory wristband that lets you sleep less and feel better!" with a barebones feature tour and that's it. Had they been more direct initially, I doubt we'd see this negative response.

I'd like to also add that there is absolutely no way for me to reach their recent announcement from the Wakemate website. Pricing is a serious issue and yet announcements pertaining to such are being made on a Heyzap founder's posterous page? Put that on the front page of your site else this problem will persist and customers will purchase your product not fully knowing what they're getting into.

You're right, and Daniel Tenner is right. That happens sometimes.

Yes, Hacker News is not a great market to extract money from. Yes, most of the people here don't want to pay for software.

But Wakemate did screw this up. Simple example: there's some form I'm supposed to go fill out now. What? If I don't, where's my $5 going?

I think Max Klein's gone a bit over the edge on this one (I understand the perception that buying v1 is going to get you v2, I totally believe Wakemate played into it, and I don't care --- people should get used to paying for added value).

But I think Max Klein's point about getting this stuff straightened out on Hacker News before straightening it out with the broader market is very well taken. Worse favors have been done to companies than to give them a Model Irrational Customer to practice on.

I'd like to know what happened to my pre-order, Wakemates.

I dont think its about the $5 a month. If you read a lot of posters, WakeMate simply got the whole announcement wrong. It ended up being very ambiguous (no exact date, free service for EACH month that it's delayed, what are the new features- take 10 extra minutes to explain those, etc) which was bound to piss people off.

I am also a 27 year old computer programmer, and I resemble that remark (sans the $100 Iphone). I am super cheap, and I can't imagine trying to sell something to myself. I deffinitely appreciated your comments.

It's not about the 5 bucks. It's about not being up front with your (future) customers. By paying the 5 bucks we commit to WakeMate, as silly as that may be. We no longer have the choice to get a fitbit because we already promised to buy a WakeMate.

We no longer have the choice to get a fitbit because we already promised to buy a WakeMate.

I don't understand the comparison at all; they're completely different devices that serve different purposes. Additionally, you don't have to buy the WakeMate; I'm sure they'll refund you the $5. Even if they didn't, if that $5 is the clincher, then you're only proving Patrick's point.

As a twenty something male techie who had no idea about the controversy on Hacker News, I was quite happy with the email I got from Wakemate and I thought they handled the entire situation quite well.

People were confused and annoyed. They expressed that to help wakemate.

That said, your rant about money is absurd and misses the point. It's not about money; it's about expectations.

Penny wise and pound foolish.

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