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Comment by humanrebar | Hacker News Reader

You didn't actually cubano's point. You're straight so you weren't attracted to any of the guys who approached you. cubano was saying it would be different if you were approached by a woman you were interested in. Perhaps the indirectness would seem coy instead of creepy.

Then again, maybe not, but I'm not sure how to objectively measure this phenomenon. People are fickle and attractiveness is sort of a squishy concept. The confusion in this is the underpinning of certain subgenres of romantic comedy like Bridget Jones's Diary and Pride and Prejudice.

Besides, a lot of people are creepy when approaching members of the opposite sex because nobody cares to coach them on how to do it properly. And nobody cares to help them figure out the 'who's, 'where's, 'when's, and 'how's of approaching prospective partners.

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You've got a point. I'm sure being physically attracted to someone enhances or diminishes the effect of their actual approach. Additionally, attractive people are more confident, and confident people tend to not behave in as many creepy behaviors.

That being said, the underlying theme of cubano's comment was blaming women for (shockingly) responding positively to flirty men who they find attractive, and responding negatively to flirty men who don't stop even after it's clear that the women just aren't into them. The subtext of cubano's comment was that it wasn't the guy's fault for being creepy, after all that was only because the woman wasn't attracted to him! He acted just the same! These guys think that you can evaluate the behavior independent of the context, which is of course ludicrous.

I think you're jumping to some conclusions there.

Most "creepy" men are socially awkward and can't do anything about it, or at least they haven't been able to do anything about it yet. To villainize them out of hand isn't helpful either. Some of them undoubtedly have social disorders, so coming down on them seems unfair as well. Maybe there are some people that are creepy on purpose, but I suspect that is a very small number of incidents.

People have a responsibility to learn how to respectfully approach potential partners, but the rules on that are vague and there's no authoritative resource on what they are. But there's absolutely a bottom line, that we should aspire to make sure everyone feels safe and respected.

But, on the flip side of the coin, people have some responsibility in learning how to learn how to reject someone clearly but respectfully. Walking to the other side of the room and talking to your friends about the creepy guy is literally the stuff of other peoples' nightmares.

I think we agree more than we disagree! I agree with you that a lot of them are simply awkward. I'm trying not to make them into villains, and I apologize for striking a somewhat harsh tone. I think that is deeply unfair as well!

Conversations like this are important because, as you say there's no authoritative resource on the topic. If we don't talk about how to act people will continue to walk around clueless.

That being said, if someone's boundaries are being crossed it incredibly unfair to say "he isn't doing it on purpose, he just doesn't know better". It still sucks to the person who's on the receiving end of that, they deserve fair treatment just as much. Unfortunately justice in that sort of situation is going to leave someone hurt, and it's better that the hurt person be the person breaking the social contract.

I have to say, I've met a number of socially awkward guys who flirt in a cute way, and a number of socially smooth guys who are super creepy. And some people are creepy on purpose -- negging, pushing boundaries, looking for the weak one in the herd or the woman who can't say no because of her own internal algorithms. They are often not socially awkward, either.

I think Captain Awkward and Dr. Nerdlove have done some excellent writing on how not to be creepy when approaching someone.

Going back to the point of the article, the poster says she hasn't had many bad experiences in tech and so she continues with confidence. She wants to show these good experiences to encourage others. This is a good idea. When it comes to rejecting people, for instance, women hear so many stories or have so many experiences of men taking rejection very badly that they often feel they must reject indirectly to preserve their comfort or safety. http://thoughtcatalog.com/christine-stockton/2014/12/bitches...

I get the sentiment of the thoughtcatalog link you posted, but aren't those exchanges either an extension of people taking advantage of either the relative anonymity provided by the internet/social media or private text conversations where no one else will likely ever read the messages?

I have never seen a guy get turned down by a woman in the real world and disparage her in such a way. Not at the bar, not anywhere else. The exchange is often over as quickly as it started. Any guy who responds to rejection in such a way and using such mediums of communication is spineless. I've come to see the terms "b---h" and "a--hole" in a dating context as words people use to describe others who won't give them the time of day.

At any rate, I think with dating today, people who are uninterested tend to just cut off all contact. It sucks to have somebody just ignore you, but they if they weren't an absolute "yes" to dating you or going on a date, then what's the point?

I have never seen a guy get turned down by a woman in the real world

You may not have, but it happens. I have read support threads where women talk about being punched in the face for rejecting a guy in a bar. I'm sure if you talk to a bouncer at any popular nightclub they'll give you loads of stories of women being assaulted by creepy dudes.

It is true that it is easiest to provide transcripts of written conversations.

How are you going to see such disparagement in the "real world" though? First, the women are all already using indirect rejection to head that off, or wearing fake rings or saying, "Sorry, my boyfriend wouldn't like that" whether a boyfriend exists or not, or giving out a fake phone number. Those are all standard tactics for a soft let-down designed to avoid conflict.

Second, how would you hear about it? Usually a guy who responds poorly doesn't flip a table, he just says, Well yeah you're ugly anyway, or something like that. Why would you hear that? Are you sitting so close that you'd hear the whole conversation? These are generally not loud conversations, and most women are shrinking in their seats trying to de-escalate and just make it/him go away. No one wants to cause a scene.

For an authoritative and peer-reviewed source (/s) check out the reddit accounts here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/20xdni/what_is_th... Most of these reactions are things a nearby guy wouldn't ever notice.

Walking to the other side of the room and talking to your friends about the creepy guy is literally the stuff of other peoples' nightmares.

Unfortunately, some people never leave high school.

I don't think that's what cubano was implying. Nobody would blame women for responding positively or negatively to attractive or unattractive men - that's just taste, and it's completely natural.

However, it's become acceptable and fashionable to shame unattractive men as "creepy" - that is unacceptable to me (unless the person is actually creepy, e.g. a stalker etc.), and women (and whoever else is doing it) are to blame.

Edit: We can compare being "creepy" with being "a slut". It's OK to not be attracted to women (or people) who are "sluts" - you're entitled to whatever taste or compatibility criteria you want in a partner. But it's definitely not OK to shame women for being sluts.

"You didn't actually cubano's point. You're straight so you weren't attracted to any of the guys who approached you. cubano was saying it would be different if you were approached by a woman you were interested in. Perhaps the indirectness would seem coy instead of creepy."

Maybe the women that cubano observed were not attracted to any of the guys that cubano saw approach them either? Maybe they weren't attracted to them because they were actually creepy?

I have never seen a woman treat a friendly guy who approached her as creepy just because the guy wasn't "attractive" to her, unless that guy was only being "friendly" in his own mind and actually acting very sleazy.

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