Comment by chimeracoder | Hacker News Reader

Comment by chimeracoder | Hacker News Reader

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> I don't mean hardcore enforced-total-equality Socialism, I mean nice Socialism like the kind Bernie Sanders has been raving about.

It's taboo to point this out, especially on HN, but I'm feeling bold today:

You can't discuss the socialist policies of Western European countries without addressing their wealth. And you can't discuss the current wealth of Western European countries without acknowledging the process by which they acquired that wealth.

The "nice socialism that Sanders has been raving about" is the kind that is practiced in countries with a long history of colonization and slavery[0]. During this timeframe, they "earned" a massive amount of money by extracting resources from people that they literally enslaved. This started before the 17th century and continued into the 20th century.

Those people who were colonized and enslaved (and their countries) are still feeling the effects of that today, and they would not be so quick to describe that kind of socialism as "nice".

[0] Denmark and Sweden are the two that Sanders has called out specifically by name.

Many countries in Western Europe have been destroyed and rebuilt multiple times since the 19th century when slavery was practiced.

> Many countries in Western Europe have been destroyed and rebuilt multiple times

This doesn't change the fact that the current economic status of Denmark and Sweden today is directly linked to their status as colonial powers and slaveholders from the 17th-20th century.

> since the 19th century when slavery was practiced.

This entire subthread began with the claim that being "low-class" in the US is tantamount to slavery. If that's the case, there should be no problem with accepting colonialism, as it was practiced by Sweden into the late 19th century and Demark into the early 20th century, as a form of slavery, since it resembles slavery far more closely than being a member of the working poor in the US.

So perhaps you can explain why, whatever this wealth was providing Denmark's 'economic status' the Nazi's didn't plunder it when they occupied it during WWII?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark_in_World_War_II

AFAICT, Denmark (and Germany, Japan, China, Singapore, South Korea, and everybody else) have whatever 'economic status' they have due to a lot more to what happened during the post WWII years than to colonial times.

Yes, and attributing Sweden's wealth to slave trade is disingenuous. Attributing it to WWII years and selling ball bearings to Nazis is more relevant - but then, who in their position wouldn't have done that? I.e. stay out of the nasty war and trade, if it helps to keep peace on borders.

Late 19th century, early 20th, Sweden was one of the poorest countries in Europe. The wealth of Sweden was accumulated post-WWII when the rest of Europe stood in ruins and needed to be rebuilt, not by being a colonial force to be reckoned with (it never was).

> Late 19th century, early 20th, Sweden was one of the poorest countries in Europe. not by being a colonial force to be reckoned with (it never was)

I mean, yes, if you compare Sweden only to the really lucrative colonizers, it'll look "poor" by comparison. But all you're really saying is that Sweden was less effective as a colonial power than its neighbors who were even "better" at it (England, France, etc.). That doesn't change the original point. If you look beyond simply Europe at where Sweden was with respect to the rest of the world, especially the regions that were colonized and enslaved, it's clear where they stood, and clear how much they benefited by being the ones who colonized, as opposed to the ones who were colonized.

The point is, you can't just look at "nice European socialism" in a vacuum and ignore the reasons why that philosophy has succeeded in Western Europe and why that exact same philosophy has been an empirical disaster in countries that were previously colonies of Western European powers and are still impoverished enough that they cannot export the working class down the economic chain any further (the way Western European powers - and the US as well - have).

I think you're just really really attached to the idea that colonialism explains the modern world.

Over the course of the 20th century, the Ottomon and British empires crumbled. World War II happened. The US and Soviet Union became superpowers, there was a Cold War, and the Soviet Union split apart. The US pursued aggressively open trade. Western Europe unified to a common economic zone. World power structures have been reorganized several times over since colonial times.

For example, how does your theory explain Singapore going from a British colony, occupied by Japan during WWII, to US$56,319 GDP per capita in 2014?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Singapore

> you're just really really attached to the idea that colonialism explains the modern world.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything of the sort.

I said that one can't understand Western European socialism (the kind which OP appears to advocate) without understanding this aspect of those countries' history. The implication is that calling such socialism "nice" is ignoring and whitewashing the negative side, both historical and contemporary.

In any case, I know better than to seriously engage in a discussion about this on HN; it's really not the forum for these sorts of conversations.

For the record, I didn't say you said that directly, which "putting words in my mouth" would imply.

It's my interpretation of your viewpoint.

I'm sorry to inform you that slavery is alive and well in Western Europe: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/16/lithuanian-guil...

No, you just linked to an article proving that it's illegal and prosecuted when it occurs.

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