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Comment by nraynaud | Hacker News Reader

There is some kind of genius in the propaganda around the gas thieves. They are stealing stuff, but let's paint them even darker by saying their trucks are unsafe. You know what's probably more unsafe? a policeman with a gun. But the prosecutor is elected, every case is more than a legal case, it's an election campaign PR operation, you have to win indictment, the trial and the reelection with every case.

I just love it, nobody can state anything objectively and with detachment anymore, everything is politically overloaded, even stuff that could be even as consensual as thievery.

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> They are stealing stuff, but let's paint them even darker by saying their trucks are unsafe

These things are literal rolling bombs. Diesel is not as critical (it doesn't emit explosive vapours and you need higher temperatures to get it to burn, and unless you vaporize it it will just burn and not explode), but take one of these trucks with 1 ton of petrol in plastic tanks and you got yourself a pretty nice fire/explosion hazard. Not to mention that ordinary plastic gets attacked by the petrol and thus will be weaker than the same tank filled with water.

All this needs to go off is a single drunk driver slamming into such a truck. To those who still think "ah that's harmless, just a fire", go visit your local fire department at an exercise session and watch how powerful just a liter of burning petrol is, then scale this up to a 1-ton-payload truck spewing the stuff everywhere.

There's a reason why ordinary fuel trucks are heavily regulated (e.g. in Germany, they're not allowed on roads in environmentally protected zones, must carry a number of fire extinguishers, have a speed limit of 60 km/h on country roads and 80 km/h on Autobahns, the drivers must be specially licensed).

Speed limits and road restrictions are all well and good, but if a tanker catches fire those extinguishers are not going to help. They may help prevent some external fire from propagating to the tanker, but if the tanker itself is burning ... run.

Diesel might seem better, but there are issues. Gas will burn/evaporate away and be gone. Diesel gets into soil and lingers, creating more environmental damage than if gas was left to burn away. The driver is safer hauling diesel, but the environment is safer if he hauls gas. This conflict is more dramatic with propane trucks (bigger fire risk, but no real chance of soil damage).

We are not talking about Europe, we are taking about the US, there is no real safety regulation on the streets, and people heavily mod cars on the war tank model (rigid box for everybody). It's not 30 sketchy tanks in a State the size of Germany that will add any significant risk. Every single handy US guy will weld his own tank instead of buying a plastic one because it's manly and DIY. And they love gas: for the home generator connected to the AC in the summer when the electricity is out, because in the wild everything works with gas engines, because of boating, for preparation to the apocalypse etc. So many reasons to make your own welded gas tank.

> Every single handy US guy will weld his own tank instead of buying a plastic one because it's manly and DIY.

All the more reason to be fucking afraid. One bad weld and the entire tank ruptures when slammed into (or it might just fail from ordinary vibration!). Or it leaks either gas or a sloppy weld on the top side vents fumes - the OP actually mentions a driver lighting a cigarette, causing his truck to explode.

Welding together a truck might cause it to fall apart. Welding a tank might cause a disaster.

I've never seen or known anyone to make a welded gas tank. Nor an a/c on a generator. And yet I've known a lot of "handy" people, including specifically welders. Where in the US are you referring to?

Only people I know to do that are motorcycle customizers.

Wouldn't the cost for the metal be more than the cost of an equivalent commercial plastic tank?

Isn't California the wealthiest State of the US? people buy war vehicles (MRAP) as week-end toys there. Money is not an issue at all. You just have to find 30 wealthy weirdos with a welder to drawn those trucks.

And frankly, maybe I would do it too in some circumstances, it's DIY, the tank has exactly the size and shape you need and you live only once, so I might rationalize the risk (on the other hand, I don't think I would ever do a custom roto-casting or blow-molding of a significant size, that looks like a pain in the butt and a lot of tooling for a one-off).

We are not talking about the US, we are talking about Los Angeles County, there is no real regulation on the streets ...

I don't want to drive anywhere near someone with 1,000 liters of fuel stored in a weak shell. If that ignites and catches fire, anyone nearby could come to a horrendously, horrendously painful death.

Legit oil carrying trucks are everywhere, and they are no real different appart that they hold way more gas in them. As far as I know every single accident involving a volatile liquid carrying truck has led to a fire. There is no real push for double hull or stuff like that in the oil trucking industry. The only safety is segmented tanks, but as far as I know they don't really stop fire propagation (but they stop waves, so they are tremendously useful anyways).

edit: of course, you'll have the prepper, the boat enthusiast, the car or truck modder, the american wild lover, and a bunch of other people carrying sketchy home made gas tanks everywhere around you in the land of freedom.

> they are no real different appart that they hold way more gas in them

Steel tanker trucks must be able to withstand more of an impact without issue than a plastic bladder in a van, no?

no, plastic is generally safer. One of the most important safety innovation in cars is the plastic gas tank (as a side note, we are looking for something as transformative for batteries in electric cars), it bends way further than steel before leaking.

Normal trucks are not stupid, it's just that past a certain size, only steel can hold the static force of the liquid. There are contradictory factors, you want the cargo to be held firmly in place when you brake, but you want the tank to be accepting a lot of deformation before breaking. I'm not sure, but a secondary concern might be contamination, I'm not sure you can switch liquids in a plastic tank, while you can clean a steel tank.

Bigger tanks also flex more. So they need something that won't fatigue as quickly. If it spends its life bouncing down roads, plastic will begin to show cracks at flex points long before steal.

There's a major difference: driving one of the legitimate tanker trucks requires a special class of driver's license, which one can't get without extra training and a good driving safety record.

(Also, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about every single accident leading to fire. Fender-benders and low-speed collisions do happen.)

For starters, you can see the legit truck carrying flammable payload and steer clear, if you have concerns about your safety. "Bladder trucks" are specifically disguised to prevent you from spotting them.

A 10 gallon fuel cell in a race car or a 1 gallon portable gas tank sitting on a boat aren't the same as a 500 gallon homemade bladder stuffed into an overloaded passenger car. I honestly can't tell if you're being facetious here. Also, a guy bringing gas home for his lawnmower is doing something useful that justifies the risk somewhat. These guys are purely motivated by greed. There's no good reason to drive these trucks around.

-These trucks have no HAZMAT signs to alert first responders to the dangers within.

-There is no separation between driver and cargo, so things like smoking or even electrical sparks could ignite the gasoline.

-These bladders don't appear to be commercially engineered or fit for this purpose. They could easily leak.

-The trucks pictured are running well over their rated payload capacity and are 10+ years old. 500 gallons of gasoline weighs 3125 lbs and even the large Excursion shown is only rated for 1500-2000 including driver and legitimate fuel.

-The drivers are incentivized to run away from police at the scene of an accident and their insurance won't cover criminal activity. If a commercial fuel truck catches fire and someone gets injured due to burns, they'd have to pay.

-The drivers aren't properly trained for handling hazardous materials. They could do things like stall on railroad tracks and kill hundreds of people.

To me, the risk seems much higher than a hobbyist with a custom hot rod or a legitimate tanker truck.

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