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Comment by Udo | Hacker News Reader

When I took a test drive of the Model S recently, one thing that struck me about the autopilot was that it's not (in my opinion) sufficiently clear what mode the car is operating in at the moment. Semiautomatic mode should be a glaringly obvious UI change, but instead it's just an icon. It reminds me of certain fatal plane crashes that led to improvements in cockpit layout and operation. Are we about to make the same mistakes with cars?

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In particular, I think Aeroflot Flight 593 [0] is representative of this sort of problem. Autopilot control of the ailerons was accidentally disabled without clear feedback of the change in mode, this led to overcorrection by the autopilot using other control mechanisms as it attempted to restore the aircraft's heading and within a minute the plane entered an uncontrolled dive and crashed.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593

This is an old video, but I love watching these airline pilot saftey presentations. This video in particular covers a lot of these automation issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN41LvuSz10

Your comment made me realize it would be a great idea to provide external signs as well, showing to people outside that the car is operating in autonomous mode. It could be lights for examples, a bit like when the car is going to move backward, only less powerful and with a different color.

This should also be standardized in a way across manufacturers.

Absolutely. I would suggest that cars have two other standardised lights in addition to turn signals:

a) Brake light on the front of the car

So that when you turn across traffic on a yellow light you can see that the oncoming car is braking.

b) Thank-you light on the back of a car. Maybe blue.

We can already express displeasure, but wouldn't it be nice to express pleasure with other road users.

> b) Thank-you light on the back of a car. Maybe blue.

I still wonder why those aren't popular:

http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/d138/

Is there a regulatory reason against placing something like it behind your rear windshield?

If not regulatory, then it's certainly a cultural thing. Many cars and buses in parts of the middle east (certainly Iran, Syria and Egypt, but my memory has blurred which countries in particular, it was some years ago) had some crazy extra lights in their rear windows.

As it says, it violates a few state laws. Mostly, it is seen as a distraction to the driving of others.

Blue in most jurisdictions is reserved for the police. Police are red-white-blue but often just red-blue, fire/ambulance are red/white and service vehicles are yellow.

I wonder if anyone here knows what purple lights are reserved for? A purple light on a car is thing all drivers are meant to know.

> I wonder if anyone here knows what purple lights are reserved for? A purple light on a car is thing all drivers are meant to know.

Apparently for anything, from funeral service to escorting oversized vehicles to HAZMAT response to whatever you feel like - depending on which country you live in :).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_vehicle_lighting

a) brake lights - at least of same color - in front will not happen - because you instinctively know - especially in poor visibility) to follow red lights and avoid the bright white ones - which is oncoming traffic...

b) in most of europe the thank you is done with a momentary press of the hazard button - thats why its generally so easy to access on most european-targeted cars.

I like the idea of a second subtle horn that sounds like clearing your throat. That would be better way to remind someone that the light turned green or that they're blocking you.

I always thought the brake lights should flash or get brighter during rapid braking. Sometimes it's hard to tell how fast cars are slowing down.

That's a good idea. Motorcyclists are taught to rapidly close and open the brake, in order to flash the rear brake light for extra visibility when stopping.

Thats already a feature in most modern cars. Seen it plenty of times on the Autobahn. It's really helpful/a life saver to know if the car in front of you just slows down or is doing an emergency brake.

>>> a) Brake light on the front of the car so that when you turn across traffic on a yellow light you can see that the oncoming car is braking.

Brake lights /= stopping, or even slowing down. They indicate that the brake pedal has been depressed 1/8th of an inch. They do not mean the other car sees you, is about to stop, or can stop. The lights you suggest would create a false sense of security, leading only to more danger. Do not ever pull in front of an oncoming car on the basis that you think it sees you and will stop. Wait the extra 2 seconds for it to actually stop.

Why? As a driver of another car, what exactly am I expected to do when I see a car in some kind of autonomous mode? It's not like reversing lights or turn indicators, which give a hint about what the driver is about to do.

If the 'autonomous mode lights' are meant to be some kind of warning, then that's just telling me that an autonomous mode isn't fit for real world use yet.

Currently manufacturers feel that they need to have their cards obey the law in every case, which is what people need to be warned about.

>It's not like reversing lights or turn indicators, which give a hint about what the driver is about to do.

On the contrary, such an indication would be precisely a hint to other drivers as to what sort of behavior one should expect from the auto-driving car.

I'd be quite a lot happier with the concept of autonomous automobiles if they'd just communicate better, personally .. like, autonomous cars should be publicly trackable with an open information network, imho .. so we, the public, can know when we are not dealing with a human but rather a machine, in life-critical situations.

>a hint to other drivers as to what sort of behavior one should expect

The point is--what behavior is that? If I saw such an indicator today, I'd have no idea what I should be expecting that's different from normal. Is it like a student driver sign (i.e. who knows what this car is about to do)? Then it probably shouldn't be allowed.

I'm sure this isn't what the OP had in mind but I think it would help adoption. At first you see one or two of the cars trickle onto the roadways and you see them behave. Then a few more. I think this would help the comfort level of people concerned about the safety and efficacy of AI driving.

Things like knowing that honking or flashing lights or screaming at the car will probably be pointless ?

Another reason is that we will definitely have bugs sometimes at the beginning, or non-human-like behaviors ( for which it's a bit early for me to give you real life examples).

Yes, if the "driver" unware of sounds and lights, the driver should not be driving.

Like the idea - maybe like a learner or probabtionary driver who has to display their L or P plates to indicate they are not fully competent.

The major indicator is that the wheel becomes quite stiff and resists turning it. The next one is the sound it makes when engaging. The icon is relatively secondary.

And, crucially, disengaging - with a beep if you have hands on wheel and a panicky "crash imminent, we're all going to die, do something!" series of beeps if you don't. Being aware of the car's mode is not an issue.

I think it's just as clear as the typical cruise control indicator, and the failure to notice that has similarly serious consequences (If you think cruise control is off when it's on you're likely to hit something pretty quickly).

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