Comment by purpled_haze | Hacker News Reader

Comment by purpled_haze | Hacker News Reader

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> Plenty of what programmers are doing isn't hacking.

and plenty of hackers aren't programmers. In Eric Raymond's definition of a hacker http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html it states:

"There is a community, a shared culture, of expert programmers and networking wizards that traces its history back through decades to the first time-sharing minicomputers and the earliest ARPAnet experiments. The members of this culture originated the term ‘hacker’. Hackers built the Internet. Hackers made the Unix operating system what it is today. Hackers make the World Wide Web work. If you are part of this culture, if you have contributed to it and other people in it know who you are and call you a hacker, you're a hacker."

I mention this because Merriam-Webster's definition on the other hand is somewhat flawed:

1: one that hacks

2: a person who is inexperienced or unskilled at a particular activity <a tennis hacker>

3: an expert at programming and solving problems with a computer

4: a person who illegally gains access to and sometimes tampers with information in a computer system

In particular, #3 doesn't mention hackers that aren't experts in programming but might solve problems with hardware/networking. A better #3 definition would be: "A person that computer programming, computer networking, or other technology at an expert level to come up with an innovative solution."

None of his article seems to try to defend his assertions at all so it seems odd to link to it unless this is an appeal to authority. In which case, what makes Eric Raymond an authority on the English language?

"-er" is a suffix used to turn verbs in to nouns. A kicker is one who kicks, a stabber is one who stabs, a hacker is one who hacks. While you can certainly create a stereotype of the general "stabber", it shouldn't and doesn't really come in to whether or not a specific act was a stab. If most people who stab others are large, hooded men, but a petite, bow tie in hair girl thrusts a knife through someones torso, she stabbed them. Talking about the incident? She was the stabber. She does it regularly enough for it to be part of her general description as a person? She is a stabber.

Now, seeing as two very common definitions of the word hack are:

A: to cut or sever with repeated irregular or unskillful blows

B : to cut or shape by or as if by crude or ruthless strokes <hacking out new election districts>

it seems both odd to take people whose relationship with programming could be describe this way and not call them a hacker, and to call people who program out of a love of freedom and voluntary mutual help hackers. How the hell do freedom and voluntary mutual help relate to the word "hack" at all other than just by correlation?

People who made programs in a non-professional environment were and are more likely to hack together their programs. This group of people historically has had some values as mentioned in your article there. But to say those values are now the requirements or the defining characteristics of the term? Ridiculous.

Most people who bowl do it for the fun of it. If bowling suddenly becomes a lucrative sport and I take it up simply to chase the money and don't intrinsically care for rolling a ball at some pins, am I not a bowler? One who is partaking in bowling? Who goes to the bowling club to bowl?

> In which case, what makes Eric Raymond an authority on the English language?

He is an authority on hacking and jargon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond

In summary: every programmer/developer/software engineer is not a hacker and you don't have to be a software-hacker to be a hacker. If you want to learn the history of the term rather than try to define it, that would be great, rather than just debating it.

I appealed to the history of it! If Eric and friends arrived at the term "hacker" through means other than the word "hack" i'd honestly love to know how, but like I said, his writing doesn't touch on it at all apart from to say that him and his friends started as a bunch of hobbiests. The best I can do is surmise that as hobbiests they believed they were crudely cutting and shaping software. What else would be it be? An Acronym? Happy Automation Creation Kids?

Discussion with someone who disagrees requires debate to settle the matter. We apparently disagree. Either debate or remain silent on it.

> Discussion with someone who disagrees requires debate to settle the matter.

> Either debate or remain silent on it.

I disagree with you. I provided evidence showing that Eric wrote a dictionary of jargon including the term "hacker". I see no other reason to continue this debate because you obviously cannot click on the link to read what I provided, and I'm not going to take the time to copy and paste every detail here, which I won't force you to read anyway if you don't want to.

I do not have to remain silent, and you just contradicted yourself when you both said that someone had to debate if they disagreed but at the same time had the option to be silent. Did you ever take a class in logic? It would serve you well to study it.

>I do not have to remain silent, and you just contradicted yourself when you both said that someone had to debate if they disagreed but at the same time had the option to be silent. Did you ever take a class in logic? It would serve you well to study it.

I said it was required to settle the matter. I didn't say the matter had to be settled. Have you studied reading comprehension? It's incredibly useful!

>I provided evidence showing that Eric wrote a dictionary of jargon including the term "hacker".

He wrote something and called it a dictionary. Great! I can do that. Anyone can do that. It's not a credential. It's enough to garner interest, and like I said, I read the entry, but writing something and slapping Dictionary as a heading is hardly evidence of that thing being true. That evidence is what he fails to even try to provide. I have provided a definition of both the word hack and how the suffix -er functions. Neither seem to be in dispute so the idea that there's disagreement over the combination is frankly nuts.

Ok, write a dictionary where you've researched technical jargon and the history of the term hacker to a full extent and get back to us on that.

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