Comment by lhnz | Hacker News Reader

Comment by lhnz | Hacker News Reader

I enjoy programming but 'working as a programmer' is infuriating.

There are so many interesting product ideas yet 'me-too' CRUD app recreations of previously successful incumbents products are highly desired. This is particularly true in the startup ecosystems where kids talk about 'interesting' problems and finding 'purpose' and yet are blindly following the mantras and motivational speeches of trite capitalists.

I currently work as a freelancer/contractor in London and I am happy as I make enough money to finance my own intellectual and creative interests for months on end. I hope I'll soon meet other intellectually curious people doing the same thing, and hope we'll be able to join forces to teach ourselves things or perhaps even work on small projects together.

Of course I feel extremely lucky to be in this position which has nothing to do with wanting a slower pace and everything to do with wanting to exert my whole self. And I can't say whether it will be good for me or bad for me; I'm certainly learning a lot about myself and the practicalities of doing this.

I enjoy X, but 'working doing X' is infuriating.

I would bet that most people feel this way. Maybe we should consider alternatives to wage labor that better meet the needs of people instead of the needs of the capitalists...

Why do so many threads always have to devolve into a bizarre condemnation of capitalism? If you don't want to code for a living, then don't code for a living. Do it for fun and make money some other way. If you're upset that you have to work to survive, well, then maybe you need to have a reality check.

It's not bizarre. There is a long historical culture of criticism of capitalism. It's just been squashed in recent decades.

I am a particularly privileged individual because I have a choice of what labor I can do, and even how much to an extent. Most people don't have the choice of just switching careers because they feel like it, and even fewer have the option of even realizing that there is some sort of activity that would be more fulfilling than what they do to survive.

I believe the reality check needs to occur in the people who are too used to their own comfort that they can't even lift their blinders to look outside their own social environments and see the injustice that is happening on a massive scale in the world.

> I am a particularly privileged individual because I have a choice of what labor I can do, and even how much to an extent. Most people don't have the choice of just switching careers because they feel like it, and even fewer have the option of even realizing that there is some sort of activity that would be more fulfilling than what they do to survive.

This is poisonous thinking. Programming is one of the most accessible industries on the planet that doesn't involve physical labor. If somebody has the desire, they can learn how to program and land a job for FREE.

People seem to be squarely divided into two groups in this world: those who believe life happens to them, and those who believe that they make life happen.

> This is poisonous thinking. Programming is one of the most accessible industries on the planet that doesn't involve physical labor. If somebody has the desire, they can learn how to program and land a job for FREE.

Not when you spend 8+ hours doing a demanding but low-paying job (like most are) and then have to come home (+1-2h) to take care of the spouse/children/parents. And even without the latter obligations, there's only so much one can do after being exhausted doing the day; life is not just about working, and many (most?) people can't psychologically sustain doing only work for longer periods of time.

Boy, you're right, it is hard. I guess that's good enough reason not to try.

Some people try. Some of them even succeed. It's worth to try, but let's not act surprised when the aggregate results look poorly.

Issues like this are, like it or not, best viewed globally, not locally. If you raise the bar until, say, 20% of people can't handle it anymore, then you can go and preach about willpower all day long, but it won't change the fact that every fifth person simply won't have it, and it's not really their fault.

Hey, thanks for not taking the bait there and snapping back.

This sort of neutral, put-things-back-on-topic reply is a great example for all of us. You made it look easy!

It's hard to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps if you weren't born with them (and not everyone in the world is). Acknowledging reality does nothing to dissuade people from trying their hardest, but sometimes one's hardest isn't enough.

There are several aspects of life that are not fair. However, there are countless anecdotes of people psychologically sustaining to learn something new and improve their station in life.

I will say, I support opening opportunities to learn. Not everyone has a computer - help foster an environment that gets people access to one.

You cannot force someone to have the willpower to work on this, the _best_ you can do is offer opportunities.

No, that's not the best you can do. What we can and should be doing is questioning the systemic inequalities and structures that cause poverty and wage dependence to exist in the first place. Whatever conclusion you come to, if you don't first put in the effort to see if there actually is a reason for existence to be this way, then yes, maybe all you can do is offer opportunities to a select few.

It's a double-edged sword, IMO.

On the one hand, yes, you can get the education to become a programmer for free.

On the other hand, programming requires a semi-decent computer, which can set someone back a few hundred dollars.

And of course it's time vs money: sure, you can spend a lot of time and zero money to become a great programmer, or you can spend a bit of money and much less time to become a great programmer.

Some people can't afford that money to save the time.

'Needs of the capitalists'... You mean like plumbers, grandmothers, schoolteachers, homeowners, and software developers?

What? Have you ever participated in a criticism of capitalism before? Capitalists are by definition people who own and profit from private property (which includes things like small businesses, large businesses, land that is rented out, etc, and does not include things such as your personal home, your car, your laptop). All the people you listed are likely not capitalists in any sense, other than your simplistic analysis that anybody who lives in a capitalist society is a capitalist.

Those people that you all mentioned are the working class. They are the people who are obligated to trade their time in labor for wages which are used (usually 100%) to pay for their own needs such as food, housing, and savings for retirement, which will also be spend of food and housing, just later in life.

nit: Lots of plumbers are also business owners and employ sub journeymen employees. Those plumbers are capitalists.

I think your point is that people who make money off their labour/time (as opposed to their assets/employees) are not capitalists.

Generally your point stands though.

pension funds are the largest owners of companies - generally owned by middle class

Pension funds (as far as I know, please correct me if I'm wrong) are financial instruments which are meant to be used for future consumption during retirement. They are not financial investments that are used to generate more capital. This makes them distinct from capitalist investments which are used for the purpose of increasing their capital wealth, most of which is unable to be consumed.

Some of the alternatives that seem to work are better capitalism such as YCs "build something people want" model. I'm not sure socialist approaches work very well for programming apart maybe from academia.

Do you have any advice for freelancers looking for interesting clients?

I'm mostly able to find clients that either 1) want full-time employees or 2) are working on 'me-too' CRUDs (sometimes both).

My suggestion is actually not to find interesting clients. My suggestion is to find high-paying clients and then to become your own 'interesting' client (aka, reduce your lifestyle cost to a point in which you're able to use this money to sustain months of self-directed work).

Nothing is perfect and I've no idea whether this particular idiosyncrasy would suit other people - I'm still undecided whether it's for me.

Exactly this.

I've been consulting with various clients for the last 4 years. I make a few multiples more than I need to survive, and do not work more than 50% of the working days per year.

This is relatively easy to achieve:

- I have no debt outside of a couple school loans, which I prioritize paying down to zero. Everything else is either living expenses, or discretionary spending.

- I ensure my clients pay for everything they need—hosting, Github, any and all services. This is an easy sell, as it keeps everything firmly in their control and they can replace me at any time.

- I charge by the day, not the hour. My clients have never complained, and they seem to find it easier to think and budget in per-day terms.

Can you give more specifics on the typical project you take on? Genre/technologies/size/price.

That's basically what I've been doing. I'm not convinced that's the only possible way, which is why I asked. Working on pointless projects is fine for a short period of time (at least for me - I tried that approach multiple times in the past), but a potential source of burnout in the long run...

Have you considered taking a pay cut to work more full time but at a company that you think is doing valuable work? There are a lot of companies trying to "change the world", surely one lines up with your values. Though sometimes the skills they want are more specialized than generic software development (which is what I have :( ).

Echoing with the OP said. Figure out who your ideal client is: who they are, what projects they offer, how much they pay, etc. then go to where those ideal clients would hang out. Talk to them, understand them and figure out how you can relieve whatever business discomfort they’re facing.

This will take some time but you’ll eventually get a stream of the type of client that can support the lifestyle you want and want to work and refer you continuously.

I would suggest looking in the mirror ;)

Let's be honest. Freelancers are not there to find "interesting clients". They are a temporary resource that enables a client to get a job done they under-resourced.

You have a choice as a freelancer 1) Become money focused. Earn as much as you can for as long as you can. 2) Become idea focused. Earn as much as you can until you have enough to bootstrap the idea. Rinse and repeat. 3) Become money focused but use your income to get the idea fleshed out using upwork.com

If you can get a few of you together it will be a better experience. Working at a co-location hub can be worth it.

Dumb question .. how does one go about getting started as a freelancer? Are there agencies or some other mechanism to get you started? Specifically, interested in how to get started in North America.

There really is no secret. Just go do it.

If you're serious about it then incorporating becomes a good idea to protect your assets.

I would suggest starting with family and friends at reduced rates to build a portfolio.

Find a friend or fellow techie to subcontract for.

Use that as a time to learn time management, invoicing and billing, taxes, etc, while you build up a network. This is basically freelance apprenticeship.

Do that for maybe a year and then start doing your own thing.

It's actually a larger question than you perhaps realize. There are different kinds of freelancing. The spectrum ranges from something that looks like "remote" work to something more akin to agency-like project work.

That former is much easier. The latter pays better but requires a whole bunch of other skills, and takes much more time. The two aren't mutually exclusive however, and that is what I've done as part of my strategy.

There is a monthly find a freelancer thread on here where you might be able to find a gig. Work on building your portfolio/reputation. I'd suggest small projects at reduced rates.

Next, I'd visit a lawyer and get a template contract worked out. Rather than have him write one from scratch, find one that includes a lot of the things you want and have him tweak it. It will be cheaper that way. Most important (IMO) are indemnification, terms of payment, and arbitration.

Get used to promoting yourself. Have your short and long "elevator pitch" together. Put together a landing page and get some business cards. Talk.To.Everyone! You never know where and when your next client will come from.

One of the issues you will run into is the feast or famine issue. You never know when you will get your next client, you have to always be on the lookout and courting -- overloading the queue because a percentage will drop out. If you don't find the next soon enough, then famine. If, as it happens often, several prospects say yes, then you feast. By feast I mean work a lot of hours and save up so you can weather the next famine.

What are your skills? Do you have a portfolio? How about an up-to-date linked-in profile?

You know I've been wondering this lately too. I haven't done any freelance work but I want to get into it. I'm still not sure the answer, but I started by turning on the 'Hire Me' buttons on my Codepen and GitHub accounts. I just launched a portfolio website (last night actually) that showcases a few of my projects and lists my contact information. I think my next step would be to check out sites like elance etc. But I'd love to hear other ideas from successful freelancers.

Not a dumb question at all. I've wondered the same thing myself. Say you're working full time and have $X/mo in fixed expenses. If you leave that job for freelancing, all of a sudden you're going to be making tons less than you were as a full-timer. How do you bridge that gap?

Pick a niche (with good characteristics) and make sure to be good at things in that niche. From there on, the client or employer will obviously pay you in the way that you want (freelance or employee). The work will also be maximally interesting. I personally get a fantastic rate doing pretty much what I like from my home office.

Could you give an example of niches like that? I'm currently doing all sort of things, ranging from reverse engineering to wordpress websites (yeah, i'm a freelancer...), and I'm super curious to hear what people found out to be "good" niches and what were "bad" niches?

Here's my advice after 7 years of freelancing: https://medium.com/@marknutter/advice-for-the-freelance-deve...

(sorry for the blogspam, I'd repost it here but it's long and I'm too lazy to paraphrase right now)

Seconded. Programming is extremely fun and rewarding. Working as a programmer, for me, not so much. Maybe it's because my definition of "interesting problems" is different from what's considered "interesting" to the business world. Maybe because I can barely stand using up most of the day on working on things I don't care about, under time pressure. I know I can do the very same things at 10x the efficiency when I'm not forced to do them. Flipping the single bit labeled "work" is enough to make me lose interest in the task.

The problem with CRUD apps is that they are architected around persistance, the product particularities and business logic are then like second class citizens that must play by CRUD-world or the framework of the year rules. The result is often a mediocre and painful to maintain app which may fulfill a bureaucracies' objectives but for the programmer it feels like being forced to be unprofessional , as if a surgeon was asked to perform an operation with a rusty saw.

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