Comment by patio11 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by patio11 | Hacker News Reader

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You have a curious definition of "all sides" in which the solution space appears to be "Impose European-style levels of benefits" XOR "Unemployed people starve in the snow." I am missing anybody here seriously proposing the second option.

I suspect the downside to having employment-at-will, very modest unemployment benefits, and a liquid labor market exists. I also suspect that it can be measured in terms of objectively verifiable criteria, and compared with the alternatives. For example, I suspect that I can look in a US newspaper for a count of the number of cars burned last night by immigrants rioting over lack of economic opportunity. It will take me a whole lot of searching, because few newspapers publish articles titled "BREAKING! No riot today, either!"

Then I could look at the same number in a French newspaper. (100 a day on quiet days, spiking to over a thousand on New Years or during periods of mass unrest. You might think I'm exaggerating. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1869392,00.htm... )

Alternatively, if counting riots seems a little messy, I could look at unemployment statistics for those under twenty five. In the United States, for youths at large, it is about 11~12% right now. In France, it is over 20 -- down a bit from a few years ago when it hit 25%. For socially disadvantaged groups in America, for example black males without a high school degree, it is about 48%. For similarly situated folks in France (for example, uneducated immigrants), unemployment is close to total.]

I can go on if you want me to.

You have valid points, but you also must consider how different France is from the U.S. When their unions strike over compensation, for example, they close down roads and burn things. Our unions strike by marching in circles with signs. Most of the immigrants you speak of live in the equivalent to housing projects. America has housing projects, but much, much fewer. It's something the French have embraced, to the detriment of their society, because it keeps their immigrant population from integrating. America prides itself on it's diversity and France prides itself on it's "Frenchness." I think you need to consider all of these things when talking about the reasons the young, unemployed French riot.

One more thing. I don't know about the ethnic or age breakdown, but right now French and American unemployment percentages are same. The difference is the French unemployed have healthcare and other social programs, so they're better off, in many instances, than Americans.

Well, yes and no. The farmers will do that, year. Metro workers often "strike" by running a normal service but refusing to collect fares. That keeps the public on-side.

A friend of mine was at the last Santacon in Paris, they were mistaken for striking workers...

Incidentally, the banlieus of Paris are worse than "the ghetto" of any American city. Except maybe Detroit.

I don't assume that the options are mutually exclusive. That said, I'm pragmatic enough to know that someone has to pay for a system like the Danes'. It comes at the expense of high taxes for all.

But if we're talking about curious, all-or-nothing thinking, I have to wonder why you're so obsessively focused on the French? A quick Google search tells me that the unemployment rate in Denmark (horrible social welfare state and all), is only around 5%. Perhaps the problems in France are specific to France?

I generally assume Americans/Europeans are comparatively well-informed on the economies and present socio/political situations of America/Europe. I could have used Japan as the main example, but if I alluded to something like "90% of the foreign population from my town is either unemployed or has emigrated in response to a government policy which paid foreigners to leave" I'd probably have to give you the back story on why central Japan has lots of Peruvians/Brazilians and their social status, then give you a rundown on what the difference between a seishain and a hakkenshain is, then discuss the changing norms about lifetime employment, then explain why the Japanese benefit system makes it almost impossible to land a seishain job unless you look like the perfect applicant, and finally get to the actual numbers which demonstrate my point.

Which would be difficult because I have about five minutes left on my lunch break and then it is back to the web programming salt mines.

Do you see the discrepancy in your recognising that you need to give all sorts of specific details as to the background and circumstances leading to the immigrant employment problems in Japan, but you're willing to make broad generalisations about France? In truth the two situations are likely as mind-boggingly complicated as each other.

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