Comment by personjerry | Hacker News Reader

Comment by personjerry | Hacker News Reader

For those of you who consider meditation a bunch of mumbo-jumbo, I get it, for I felt (and sometimes still feel) the same way. But let me try to phrase meditation in the terms I understand it as.

We often find ourselves in stressful or difficult situations, we are constantly bombarded by external worries, and we think it is difficult to deal with our problems. However, no matter how big external issues are, the way that we ultimately interpret these problems is up to our mind. At times we might find a dark joke about death incredibly funny, and at other times it may make us cry. Meditation takes a break from dealing with these interpretations of the world for a moment (instead concentrating on something basic like breathing) and in doing so, gives us a way to acknowledge the fact that our interpretations of the world are all in our head. So even if we can't extend full control over them, these thoughts and feelings are still ours and we might have some influence over them, and it turns out even briefly having this feeling can affect your mind in the long term.

A side effect of meditating is that you might learn to replicate the sense of "stepping outside the situation" even outside of meditation, allowing you to relax and consider the big picture rationally in intense moments in which you might've been originally felt too caught up "in the moment".

> interpretations of the world are all in our head

I don't think most people are stressed because of "interpretations" of the world rather than very real problems like paying the bills and terrible working conditions.

From my understanding, our minds are are not literally filled with things in the real world (for they would not fit) but are instead filled with "thoughts" which "refer" to real things. But my "thought" of peanut butter, for example, might have significantly different "connotations" for me than for someone with an allergy to peanut butter. So what I'm saying is, these "thoughts" and what they "connote" to the individual mind they belong to, is subjective and in our heads, but they may in fact refer to very objective, real, problems.

So how would you alter your thought of a real problem if it seems legitimate to worry about it?

There's no one answer to that, because "how" is dependent on the individual and their relation to their thoughts (i.e. my thoughts are probably organized very differently from yours).

Furthermore, it is hard to claim that one would be able to "alter their thoughts" as directly as your sentence suggests, but meditation at least allows the recognition of separation between the "worry" in the mind and the "problem" in reality.

For some people, this recognition leads to a sense of control over that worry, which might be one example of your "how".

If you define worry as "the state of being anxious and troubled over actual or potential problems", then I'd argue that worrying in itself has no positive effect on the 'real' problem anyways.

The only mechanism by which 'worry' might be useful is if it triggers the problem-solving part of the mind and ultimately leads to actions that solve this problem. In my opinion this mechanism is highly inefficient and in fact often backfires: we focus on the worry instead of thinking about solutions, let alone implementing these solutions.

Meditation, and a mindful approach to life is first of all useful as a debugging mechanism. As you train your ability to direct your thoughts and pause them, you learn to discern what kind of thinking is useful, and what isn't.

So, for example, you might realize that you've been caught up in worry and just the act of being aware of this pointless train of thought might prompt you to sit down and create an action list of how to get out of this situation.

Another benefit is that frequent meditation somehow improves the connection between the thinking mind and the subconscious, as well as the body. I've had moments where meditation helped me suddenly realize a solution to a problem that I couldn't previously solve. And almost every time that I meditate, I will be aware of hunger, or thirst, or some other feeling or physical need that I would otherwise completely neglect.

Now I'm a particular type of person, so these benefits might be more explicit to me, but from what I understand most people will experience these things to some extent.

I don't have anything to say, other than I really enjoyed your reply and think the debugging analogy is great!

The "trick" is to not let these things overwhelm you. __Worrying__ about your bills doesn't make you able to pay them! In fact it may actually paralyze you.

Paying a bill is sometimes stressful.

Paying a bill should never be so stressful that it causes a person to override their innate self-preservation and start thinking about suicide.

The problem is a real world problem. The reaction to it is in someone's head.

Sometimes people get overwhelmed by the feelings created by negative life events, and mindfulness style meditation is one way for people to calm those thoughts and emotions and allow them to work out more reasonable solutions.

This is important because sometimes cognitive behaviour therapy is sold as "fix your broken thinking". Imagine someone has a history of abuse - they often say that their thinking is a reasonable result of the abuse.

It's analogous to physical pain. If you're holding your hand on the stove and it burns, it makes you pull your hand away. But some people may be "miswired" and not pull away. But then the solution isn't to give them painkillers and just watch their hand burn its flesh away.

But then again, there is pain that doesn't indicate something fixable. Like chronic back pain. Then it's best to just reduce the pain itself.

Now, how do you differentiate in case of worrying? Probably by asking a trusted friend or family member or someone else if they think your worries are legitimate and what they suggest doing.

But not all stress has a concrete cause, like bills. Sometimes people just get stressed and anxious in general.

I'd wager that some general base level of worry exists in all humanity that comes to surface regardless of wealth and security. I mean, the magazines in rich countries (especially Western Europe) are full of "how do I get happy", "how do I become myself", "how do I unfold my potential" etc. At least in poorer countries people can always point out why they are stressed. They can blame the bills, the credit, the other political side etc.

In places like SV, people live so well, they are past the point of realistic worries, so they don't understand why they don't feel fully happy.

If you have a shitty life in a poor country, without any hope of stepping forward, nobody will think you're depressed. Everyone, including you, will think it's just a natural reaction. I guess this is why depression is such a big topic in rich places and is seen as some whining and bitching in less developed places.

It turns our that in many cases chronic back pain (and other pain) has a psychological component to it as well. Often that pain is a response to some sort of mental stress or tensions.

There's an old saying about not being able to change your wind, but being able to change your sales? It's like that.

Imagine you've got a bill due that you know you're not going to have money to pay no matter what you do. This is a significant amount of stress that you're going to be carrying with you over something you really don't have the power or situation to do anything about.

Hence: Change your sail. The consequences of missing that payment are insignificant in the long term, and dwelling on it is going to do you more mental damage than moving a number in a database down a few ticks.

Same with a horrible job. Even when you get time off, there's that sickening dread at the edge of your perception that soon, you'll have to go back. And it eats on you like nothing else.

Change how you think about it. You can dwell on it and be stressed out, or you can recognize that this, too, shall pass.

That sounds trite and blasé.. and it probably is, until you really internalize it, and realize that you ultimately have control over what you choose to dwell on.

It's impossible to worry without interpretation. The method of interpretation can determine needless worrying about externalities vs handling them in stride.

The stress is the interpretation of/response to "very real problems". One of the habits formed in meditation is the ability to create space between perception and interpretation, in which we can explicitly notice how the mind is reacting to these problems, and where we can create a habit of asking of ourselves questions like "is this feeling/reaction useful?".

I don't consider it mumbo-jumbo. But I feel it doesn't fit well with my Western mindset: it costs a lot of time, and is that really the best way to spend that time?

I'd rather go out and walk, and think about problems I want to solve. Or use the time to get something done.

A lot of time? I'd say 30 minutes a day (consistently) is enough to get significant benefits. And after all, don't we all easily waste 30 minutes a day or things which really don't contribute much to our lives? Say, browse reddit or watch a TV show. Personally, I've found that trying to meditate in the middle of the day, even late at night, when I'm all "wired" from/during work, or just everyday life, is hard. What I found way easier to stick to is meditate first thing in the morning, only after going to the bathroom. At this point, if you're like me, you're the least anxious / stressed / wired or however you want to call it, and it's way easier to justify spending 30 minutes just being present and quiet. Any other time of the day and it feels like "I don't have time for this", even if I just wasted 30 or 60 minutes procrastinating (or I know I'm about to).

I need to get up way too early, get myself and my children dressed and fed, and commute to work. In the evening it's commute back, eat, get kids to bed, do chores, and then there's about two hours of free time / social things / time to interact with my wife.

So about a quarter of available time.

I would be a bit more relaxed, I know, it might have other benefits. But not enough, I think.

There is this Zen proverb that goes like this:

"You should sit in meditation for twenty minutes every day -- unless you're too busy. Then you should sit for an hour."

While I don't think it's necessary to sit an hour every day, it does inspire me. In my experience, if you meditate every day for a few weeks/months, you will start feeling more 'grounded'. You'll be more calm in most situations. You will be chasing external happiness less, and just be more content with being. It's pretty hard to describe, but to me, it seems like a good thing.

I know the proverb.

Zen is a form of Buddhism. Buddhism is interesting and many of the things is says are wise, but ultimately it sees life as suffering and its aim is to reduce suffering.

As interesting as it is, I come from a culture that is too different. No matter how futile it ultimately is, I want to _achieve things_. Being at peace with life feels good but is ultimately not enough.

How is being at peace not enough? Achievements are transient.

Everything is transient.

It's just not the goal, it's ok to have a different goal. Not everybody wants a calm, peaceful life.

> I want to _achieve things_

It's true, the Buddha taught the cessation of suffering. But he said to do it by really understanding what's going on. You can achieve things either way. But you might choose to achieve different things if you have more insight into the nature of reality.

Have you looked into Stoicism? It's got a lot of the Buddhist elements of learning to accept the present while also focusing on achievement. I think of it in some ways as a Western-friendly mindfulness approach. A Guide to the Good Life [1] is a great book on the subject, and in the past has helped me be more effective in life, while also being happier. I've also heard good things about The Obstacle Is the Way [2].

[1]: http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/01953...

[2]: http://www.amazon.com/Obstacle-Way-Timeless-Turning-Triumph/...

Marcus Aurelius has been on my reading list for years, but he never got to the top of the list. Maybe it's time to read something on this subject, like one of your suggestions, thanks!

It sounds like you suffer if you don't achieve things. Nothing in Buddhism says that you shouldn't achieve anything if that is your nature. The purpose of Buddhism isn't to become a monk - it's to become happy.

It is notable that Steve Jobs was a Buddhist and seriously considered becoming a monk. His Buddhist teacher recommended that he continue with his computers.

I feel the same. I have a 6 month old and 2 year old. I'm an only child and when I was young I had hour and hours (especially in school holidays) to sit, read, play on my computer and think.

Now I have a couple of hours spare a day. I work for about 8.5 hrs and sometimes spend a bit of time in the even programming but mainly find time to exercise/see friends and wife/read or watch TV. It seems to improve as the children get older. I've enjoyed meditating and yoga in the past and I think I will do more in the future, but I also find things like playing an instrument, programming, walking outside to be equally helpful.

I'd say playing an instrument or walking both are nearly equivalent to meditation, because with the former you're clearing your mind and focusing on playing, and the latter you're clearing your mind as you expend energy walking while looking at and enjoying nature (or at least that's what walking does for me). They seem to have similar effects to when I have meditated (very infrequently, so YMMV) in the past.

Start with a 9 minute track on your lunch break. You ca find 9 minutes. Part of the battle for all of us is doing it when we would rather do something else.

Well, downtime can be valuable. When I think about problems all my waking time, I get kind of burned out. So sitting quietly and just breathing, in that situation, is actually more valuable than thinking. It's kind of like having a nice bath or sauna.

>I'd rather go out and walk

Meditation is not limited to strictly sitting indian style in a dark quiet room. Find your own style. If taking a walk calms you down then do that. If you like laying on your back and staring at the stars, then do that. Don't rely too much on how others tell you you should do it

I ride my bike hard on a rural blacktop road.

There's some evidence that you can trade roughly the time you spend in meditation at day as a decrease of sleep you need at night: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2919439/

If that pans out, you'd get better mental well-being with the same amount of daily time for other stuff as you had before.

Thanks, that definitely sounds like it worth testing!

Siddhartha Guatama (sp?) used to meditate while walking.

I think the idea in the end is, the mind is a tool. If you spend time developing the tool you'll get better results out of it when you're not spending time developing it.

So even if you could use that thirty minutes to do something else, you might, in the end, be able to get more done, with a more sharply honed (clearer) mind.

That being said, is it right for you? I have no idea.

You might consider a moving meditation. You meditate, but while walking or running. Simple.

It's not the time aspect. It's that being type B is already a liability enough in corporate America. Making myself even further away from the "type A" end of the spectrum would harm my career even more. Sad.

If you equate 'career harm' to less money earned, it may be worth asking how much you would pay to be happier.

You could say the same about sleep.

I have a stationary exercise bike in my basement. I ride it for 20-30 minutes almost every day. While I'm riding, I close my eyes and meditate, mostly just focusing on my breathing. I get my cardio and my meditation handled in one shot.

Thanks, that's helpful. Did you study meditation by yourself and if so, is there a book/manual that you would recommend?

I frequently spend long moments in silence "doing" nothing, but thinking about a lot of things; when I try to not think, I tend to fall asleep quite rapidly; I wonder how to not think and yet not sleep...?

I don't have a manual, and I think everyone might do it a little differently, I just sit comfortably and focus on my breathing.

I think something key is to concentrate on something simple and constant (such as breathing in, breathing out) rather than not thinking about anything. Then, inevitably thoughts will arise, but when we think of something while meditating, we acknowledge it ("ok, I acknowledge that I'm thinking about this right now") and let the thought go, returning to focus on the breathing. That might keep you from falling asleep.

I strongly recommend "Buddhism Plain & Simple" by Steve Hagen. It's much more meditation / awareness than Buddhist practice, so don't worry much about the title. I also really enjoyed "10% Happier" which was way more of a practical story vs. instruction manual. In general, meditation is NOT about "not thinking" - a major misconception about the practice. It's always helped me to view it less as a "mental getaway" and more as "training my mind like a muscle."

The practice, btw, is the whole point, it's not a means to getting to "the real part." That's a difficult point for some to grasp. Every time you sit and your mind wanders, that's the practice right there. This might be the most accurate image of what meditation is: http://www.highexistence.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/medi...

A few links that might help: http://buyalex.com/2015/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/breatheAw...

http://i.imgur.com/75wn1o9.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze6t34_p-84

What you describe is the same as how I would describe riding my bike. I generally have a heart rate monitor on and I focus on keeping my cadence high and my heart rate steady (in whatever zone I am working in at the time). Up until 24 hours after riding I feel clarity in mind and body.

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