No comic sans in httpd status pages | Hacker News Reader

No comic sans in httpd status pages

marc.info

182 pointselchief87 comments

    > 	    "sans-serif; }\n”

Note the incorrect, "smart" quote at the end of the line. I'm not sure if that's intentional, but this is going to be interesting.

Must..

Control..

Fist...

...of Death!

I don't understand why this was downvoted?

It looks like a novelty account, and HN generally frowns on novelty accounts.

Doesn't contribute to discussion?

Interestingly, my browser detects the page as Windows-1252 and displays that quote as â€

Yeah, that's how I noticed it too.

That's because marc.info doesn't supply a Content-Type header (or equivalent <meta> tag) to specify encoding, so the browser must assume it's using some 8-bit one. On most computers in Western Europe, the US and so on, it'll assume Windows-1252.

You have to explicitly specify you want UTF-8 to get it. This would seem to be strange since it's The Encoding now, but assuming 8-bit is necessary for backwards-compatibility, I'm guessing.

It's the same reason we have to include '<!DOCTYPE html5>' when we want the browser to use HTML5. It's the same reason XHTML failed and we had to deal with quirks mode for years before HTML5. Backwards compatibility sucks.

You only need to do <!DOCTYPE html>, without the 5.

And that's why I program instead of web design.

Are you saying web design isn't programming? HTML isn't (although HTML5 can be if you use canvas etc), but javascript sure is.

Nice catch. 1st: not a unified diff, 2nd: not a bug but a feature, so I didn't even get to 3rd: wrong quote.

Not intentional, apparently: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=145591546209364&w=2

https://web.archive.org/web/20140625075722/http://www.libres...

> This page scientifically designed to annoy web hipsters. Donate now to stop the Comic Sans and Blink Tags

All the OpenBSD presentations I've read have been in Comic Sans. They really like that font :)

I think they do it to make a point, they don't care about stuff being pretty, they care about it being sane and secure. If the only thing you complain about is a typeface then maybe they're doing their job right :)

Given that fonts are attack vectors, why style text at all?

The consideration of fonts as attack vectors is highly overplayed - the bytecode allowed in TTF in OTF fonts is pretty limited, while mistakes have certainly been made in FreeType and other implementations it's no worse than the JavaScript sandbox most people are already relying on in their browsers.

There are some fonts you should never install, even if they look innocuous:

http://fontmeme.com/freefonts/134412/the_trojan_horse.font

And other fonts are so beautiful that merely looking at them can cause harm:

http://re-type.com/notaweblog/2013/03/06/new-font-from-retyp...

They aren't actually embedding the font, they are just setting a style in the css to use a particular system font, if present.

You could say that - but since the font is such a large "nuisance" it serves as a distraction vector.

I actually like the font a lot.. it's readable, depending on size/resolution, and has a nice "unfinished" feel to it.

Didn't their weaponization of Comic Sans start with LibreSSL?

Beck describes it in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnBbhXBDmwU

[edit: slide at ~ 47 minutes]

Link to specific time (exactly 49:00): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnBbhXBDmwU&t=49m

OpenBSD's been using it way before they started LibreSSL

In random browsing of the Internet for networking-related topics, slide decks that I come across seem to use Comic Sans a lot more than usual too. I'm not sure if there are OpenBSD (or other BSDs) associations with that, as one of the first popular networking APIs was the Berkeley sockets.

Text of the message (since the site seems to be down):

- - -

  List:       openbsd-tech
  Subject:    [PATCH] No comic sans in httpd status pages
  From:       Peter Krantz <peter () peterkrantz ! se>
  Date:       2016-02-19 16:40:33
  Message-ID: AAE82534-AF27-4CC9-B780-38F05596FE38 () peterkrantz ! se
  [Download message RAW]

Hi!

For some reason the httpd status pages (e.g. 404) use the Comic Sans typeface. This patch removes comic sans and sets the typeface to the default sans-serif typeface of the client.

This lowers the number of people contacting website maintainers with typeface complaints bordering on harassment.

Cheers,

Peter

  ? no_comic_sans_in_404.patch
  Index: server_http.c
  ===================================================================
  RCS file: /cvs/src/usr.sbin/httpd/server_http.c,v
  retrieving revision 1.105
  diff -r1.105 server_http.c
  811c811
  < 	    "'Comic Sans MS', 'Chalkboard SE', 'Comic Neue', sans-serif; }\n"
  ---
  > 	    "sans-serif; }\n”

As I understand it, there's no Comic Sans (MS Web Fonts) in OpenBSD, so it basically just trolls everybody else.

I thoroughly approve of it.

An elegant example of a troll trolling other trolls (and few more masterful than the OpenBSD developers), I'd reckon.

Good eyes. I've been bitten by those before, took me a while to hunt that bug.

This patch is a prime example of why I understand OpenBSD devs' frustration with newcomers. It takes several hours of lurking to get the general idea of what OpenBSD culture[1] is. And yet about once or twice a week there's someone new coming with some demand, backward idea or GPL evangelism, who gets aggressive when challenged. I'd flip the table every single time if I were one of the contributors.

[1] as long as you're not devoid of sense of humor, I guess, in which case there's no hoping

  > And yet about once or twice a week there's someone new
  > coming with some demand, backward idea or GPL evangelism,
  > who gets aggressive when challenged.

You forgot to mention the people who try to spam the lists with propaganda for their own rando OpenBSD fork or derivative.

As a regular reader of openbsd-misc, considering the relatively low volume of the list, the frequency with which people just storm in with batshit craziness is indeed boggling.

I mean..in the last three days alone, look at this[1] and this[2]. wtf!

[1]: https://marc.info/?t=145589643700008&r=1&w=2

[2]: https://marc.info/?t=145564257000002&r=1&w=2

You are in a maze of gpio pins, all alike, all undocumented, and a few are wired to bombs.

Is this theo.c what it appears to be?

It is exactly what it appears to be.

The shame of it is that misc posts asking for help are frequently ignored while any troll can pop up asking about LibertyBSD or the GPL and fresh replies roll in for a week or more.

Misc needs more self-restraint.

Most of the questions that aren't answered in manuals do get attention. Manuals exist for a reason and reading them is one of the core requirements for using OpenBSD and asking questions on various lists.

Theo once said (quoting him sounds super preachy, I know) that "if you can't study the world around you, you will remain ignorant", and this perfectly reflect what is truly important about OpenBSD lists.

This and understanding that some of the questions get answered off the list (I know people who got their answers like this and I know I did help once or twice in this fashion). ;)

+1. The one time I asked a question on an openbsd list, I got quality off-list replies from the developers themselves within 24 hours.

If you do your homework and follow the netiquette, things get answered. It's a great community. I just wish people would leave it alone and I wish misc@ would not engage trolls.

I read everything that gets posted on misc, and my impression is that most questions get good answers. There are a couple people who are abrasive and will occasionally step in to tell someone off (even when others are helping), but I think the overall quality of responses is pretty decent. Troll posts certainly get a lot of attention though, I've seen it happen a number. :/

There's an old story that you can get more help on the Internet by posting bad advice and having people correct you, than actually asking for help.

The hate for Comic Sans seemingly knows no bounds.

Since it seems fashionable to be outraged over something on the internet, I choose the unbridled and unfair hatred towards Comic Sans, the lemonade stand of typefaces. What kind of sick, evil bastards don't like lemonade stands?

I'm also pretty pissed about Pluto getting demoted.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. People like to feel part of a collective group, and the Internet's biggest collective group is outraged people. In this case, outraged nerds. We collectively 'agree' that outsiders (that is, idiots) use Comic Sans. Then we attack the style, rather than the substance, because they didn't know of the unwritten rules of our subculture.

To provide at least one data point: My feelings about Comic Sans amount to "meh". I actually think it's a very-well designed font. It's just that people have no idea when it's appropriate and when it isn't.

I saw the light when I realized that Simon Peyton Jones (of Haskell/GHC fame) purposely used Comic Sans in all of his presentations -- just to weed out who was paying attention to the styling over the content. Generally, I think this might be a good principle, but you can definitely take it too far. For example, SPJ's slides are always well-articulated and don't contain L33tsp33k (or whatever we call what the kids use on IM these days).

SPJ about Comic Sans:

> This is a very funny question, "Why use Comic Sans?" So, all my talks use Comic Sans and I frequently see remarks like 'Simon Peyton-Jones, great talk about Haskell but why did he use Comic Sans?' but nobody's ever been able to tell me what is wrong with it. It's a nice legible font, I like it. So until somebody explains to me ... Ah, I understand that it's meant to be a bit naff, but I don't care about naff stuff, I care about being able to read it. So if you have got a sort of ... some rational reasons why I should not then I'll listen to them. But just being unfashionable? I don't care.

Because it's difficult to read.

Are you saying that you think that Comic Sans is difficult to read?

(I'm prepared to believe you, but the main complaint I've ever heard is that it's "silly" or "frivolous" or... well, actually I haven't heard much beyond that.)

It draws too much attention to itself to be body text, yes. It requires the reader scan the letters more than recognizing the shapes of words and moving on. (Yes, this is why we miss misspellings and even missing words. It isn't my job as a reader to catch that. The author should have a spellcheck program and, if it's at all serious, a human proofreader.)

There's a reason there's a distinction between fonts for body text and title text: Body text is all pretty simple, uniform, and easy to just scan through. Title text is meant to be a logo in its own right, more difficult to read, and therefore take up more of your time. Comic Sans is, arguably, a reasonable title text font. It isn't for body text. It's meant to ape handwritten text in comic speech balloons, but if you look at actual good handwriting, it looks more like body text than title text.

> It draws too much attention to itself to be body text, yes

That's about the vaguest complaint I've ever heard. If you have statistics and studies then I'm definitely prepared to listen, but...

> it's difficult to read.

It's recommended for readers with dyslexia because the letter shapes vary so much. (I don't know if there's any research supporting that).

Which is exactly why it's distracting to fluent readers.

That's an interesting claim. Do you have any evidence/references to back that up?

(I mean, it makes intuitive sense, but that's not really a good indicator of... anything, really.)

I also find it difficult and unpleasant to read, particularly as body text.

Mostly the kids are using emojis in IMs these days. I can't really tell what they're trying to say, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone.

It's probably mostly the unicode "pile of poo" character or something. I hear Deadpool was a huge hit.

> just to weed out who was paying attention to the styling over the content

I definitely understand the intention, but I think it's misguided. Does he also fart randomly during his talks to weed out who was paying attention to random noises over the content?

It's a rhetorical question, of course. I've been to several of his uniformly excellent talks, and no he doesn't, but I do think the talks are hindered by using Comic Sans not least beacuse it causes people to ask the question "why"!

I invoke Godwin's Law:

The Comic Sans controversy is the most heated dispute about typefaces since Hitler weighed in on the Antiqua–Fraktur dispute. [1]

Because it matters which typeface your hate speech is set in:

"Your alleged Gothic internalisation does not fit well in this age of steel and iron, glass and concrete, of womanly beauty and manly strength, of head raised high and intention defiant ... In a hundred years, our language will be the European language. The nations of the east, the north and the west will, to communicate with us, learn our language. The prerequisite for this: The script called Gothic is replaced by the script we have called Latin so far ..." [2]

Here is the Bormann Decree, in which Adolph Hitler, the original Font Nazi, banned Blackletter for supposedly having Jewish roots: [3]

"For general notice I announce the following by order of the Führer:

"It is false to regard or describe the so-called Gothic typeface as a German typeface. In reality the so-called Gothic typeface consists of Schwabacher-Jewish letters. Just as they later came to own the newspapers, the Jews living in Germany also owned the printing presses when the printing of books was introduced and thus came about the strong influx into Germany of Schwabacher-Jewish letters.

"Today the Führer, in a discussion with Herr Reichsleiter Amann and the printing company owner Herr Adolf Müller, decided that Antiqua type is henceforth to be designated as the standard typeface. Gradually, all printed matter should be converted to this standard typeface. As soon as possible in regard to school textbooks, only the standard script will be taught in village and elementary schools."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiqua%E2%80%93Fraktur_disput...

[2] Völkischer Beobachter, Issue 250, Sept. 7, 1934.

[3] https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-Hitlers-Third-Reich-fa...

Mine also knew no bounds until I found out my grand daughter likes it. So Ive been using it more and more in applications she may see.

It is a pretty clean typeface, her name looks nice laser burned into her music box. YMMV

I have a script that do most installations and configurations that I run after each Linux install. It contains the following lines:

### fix font issues

sudo rm /usr/share/fonts/truetype/msttcorefonts/comic*

sudo rm /usr/share/fonts/truetype/msttcorefonts/Comic*

So no comic sans cancer for me (except when people are perverse enough to put it into images, or worse, meatspace...)

Or when they use webfonts. (Yes, some people actually do that.)

I was watching an episode of That 70s Show a few weeks ago, and I swear I saw Comic Sans on a sign. Not even dramatizations of the past are escapable from it.

Look into "find -iname '...' -print0 | xargs -0"

Be nice with the poor server. Text mirror (pastebin):

http://dpaste.com/3E9B7BB.txt

Seems like they succeeded in their objects of "annoying web hipsters"?

Hi! I am the patch submitter and I just wanted to make an honest contribution to fix something I thought was broken. I could not find a way to specify custom status pages in OpenBSD httpd.

The smart quote error was my mistake. I figured patches to email lists should be submitted in a signed email message and used Mail.app for the first time in a while (where I have it configured). Didn't see the auto corrected quote before sending. Contributed a new corrected patch which I hope works better.

I guess this patch will never be considered if the use of Comic sans is intentionally hard coded into httpd but at least I tried.

Replacing https with http worked for me:

http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=145590012904434&w=2

How long had Comic Sans been used on httpd status pages? (The mind reels…)

Since it was released in 5.8, I believe.

OpenBSD projects tend to use Comic Sans as a matter of course as a ward against hipsters[1].

[1]: http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan14-libressl/mgp00025.htm...

People who use the term "hipsters" to describe "anyone who is not like me" are the new hipsters.

They said web hipsters, I think they know they are basically the security obsessed cvs hipsters themselves.

The irony here is that using/liking something specifically because it makes you unusual, and wards off people who aren't like you, is exactly what hipster means.

So OpenBSD are a bunch of hipsters.

Pretty sure they were security hipsters before it was cool. ;)

    Revision 1.2, Sat Jul 12 23:55:35 2014 UTC (19 months, 1 week ago) by reyk 

    Use Comic Sans (or Chalkboard) as the default font for HTTP error
    messages because we love web hipsters.

    ok beck@

r1.3 added blinking to the page.

I love it!

> r1.3 added blinking to the page.

... because epileptics should suffer, apparently.

Hey, this is a real thing! <blink> will cause people with epilepsy difficulty, ranging from anguish to a full seizure.

The message does not specify why they got complaints.

But it's fair to assume that it was a bad choice, considering the font is not on most plateform

The typefascists have won.

A thoughtful rebuttal by Comic Sans: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/im-comic-sans-asshole

If you prefer a clean/readable version, it's available here: https://marc.ttias.be/openbsd-tech/2016-02/msg00313.php

I was hoping to click on this and find the same page in Comic Sans

This reply sums it up nicely.

https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=145592464111609&w=2

Farewell my dear and favorite font!

thank god

I guess the idea of putting comic sans MS as a way to force companies into putting relevant customised status error messages for users has failed.

EDIT see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9240906

For 500 a ticketing or a contact info to report the problem For a 404 whatever can help the user finds it way For congestion status a link to a status page? For stuff 40? that requires payment a link with a link for legitimately acquiring it ... The webmasters email in case there is something to report could be nice too ...

It really is business meaningful to customize them, I fully support shaming irresponsible webmasters that keep default status pages with comic sans MS.

> shaming irresponsible webmasters that keep default status pages with comic sans MS.

Until they have a filesystem failure that results in the server unable to locate the custom pages, and defaults to rendering the Comic Sans page? Even responsible developers find themselves hitting the consequences of the chaos monkey.

I could not find a config setting for httpd in OpenBSD that allows me to specify custom status pages.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com