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Comment by giancarlostoro | Hacker News Reader

If the engineers got fired or quit their jobs what could be done then I wonder?

Apple HR to security engineer: "You're fired! The color of your hair is all wrong!" (Yes, you can do this in California)

Security engineer: "Meep?"

HR: "That's right. Oh, and here, since you were such a great employee (up until we noticed your hair, anyway), have this extremely generous dollar amount severance package. Maybe if your hair is a different color someday we'll hire you back."

Apple to FBI: "We have no one with the expertise to work on this. Golly, sorry about that."

Is the FBI then going to make a grab for source code, signing keys, and conscript people to do the work?

> Is the FBI then going to make a grab for source code, signing keys, and conscript people to do the work?

I think it's become clear that they'd at least try.

Interesting. A draft targeting software engineers to forcibly enlist them in the government's "war on encryption".

What kind of dystopia are we living in again?

I don't think this could happen without enabling legislation.

The U.S. military draft required passage of the Selective Service Act [1] Something similar would be required before Apple's coders could be forced to carry out court orders directed at Apple, the corporation. Even in these times (so far!) I think this wouldn't happen.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_Act_of_1917

Not a draft. As we've seen in Snowden, there are tons of engineers who support the security state and will volunteer to serve.

Unfortunately I'm sure there are at least a few engineers with the expertise necessary who would happily agree to work with the FBI (for whatever reason.)

Maybe engineers with military history.

At-will employment does not extend to firing people in order to not comply with a court order.

HR to security engineer: "You're quitting? That's a shame. Um . . . Tim Cook has a beach house he wouldn't mind you using for a while. Can you walk his dog?"

My point is, the individuals won't suffer.

"You're quitting? And leaving a hard technical division of the most financially successful and popular tech product of its generation? And your only recourse is the Silicon Valley job market? ... ... We'll miss you but I'm sure you'll land on your feet."

When you get a lawful court order, you comply with it. To do otherwise would result in massive fines and quite possibly executives being criminally charged. If the Apple security engineers want to quit on principle, then it truly would be on principle; there is absolutely no way Apple's legal department would allow them to ever be rehired or offered any compensation/gifts beyond a standard severance package. If engineers did quit, Apple would be forced to (at great expense) temporarily hire other people with comparable expertise in order to comply with the order.

That said, Apple security engineers probably would land on their feet.

But "great expense" enters into the all-writs test. That would have to be re-examined.

I'm not sure Apple could be fined if its relevant employees took individual decisions that resulted in Apple's inability to comply with the court's order.

Apple doesn't have the ability to compel an individual's conduct. The court's order applies to Apple, not to named individuals. Given that, I don't see a legal basis for fines, executive criminal charges, etc.

I think there's a lot of power in the hands of a few employees (and potential replacements) here. It'll be interesting to see what they decide to do.

They could certainly be fined, charged with obstruction of justice/contempt of court etc, if Apple gave monetary or other incentives to its employees to make said decisions, as the commenter I was responding to was suggesting.

What about good references? What about "Okay, we understand, but we'll gladly have you back (with a signing bonus) when this blows over?"

A court order doesn't extend to Apple being required to be a dick to its ex-employees.

(And yeah, if any of you folks want a job, there are a zillion people on HN happy to talk, I'm sure)

If they have the source, documentation, and signing keys, they don't have to conscript anyone. They can have one of their people do it, or hire a non-Apple engineer with low morals who is willing to do it.

Is the FBI then going to make a grab for source code, signing keys, and conscript people to do the work?

No, they're going to grab for source code, signing keys, and _pay_ people to do the work. There are lots of competent engineers out there, and not all of them share your politics (and some that do might be willing to reconsider it for a sufficiently large dollar amount).

Hell there are probably engineers working at the NSA right now who would easily do it as part of their day to day job if you just handed them the keys and source code.

Impossible to know without the actual employment documents, but also curious if the DoJ could be considered a tortfeasor for disrupting an employment contract in that case.

My guess would be that some stretch of sovereign immunity [1] would shield DoJ.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity

After those engineers quit, Apple should hire a bunch of terrible engineers with impressive resumes (bonus if they used to work for the FBI) and put them to work on this.

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