Comment by jypepin | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jypepin | Hacker News Reader

So... I'm biased because I did a bootcamp.

I think the comparison of bootcamp vs 4years CS degree is not very apple to apple, because well, you compare on 1 side people who almost "discovered" programming 3 months earlier to people who have been studying it for 4 years + most of the time have had internships etc.

What I can say tho, is that, for junior positions (I guess one of the points of the article) those bootcampers can be 1. very good and productive, and because of the nature of the bootcamps, 2. usually very motivated and eager to learn, get feedback etc.

So if you are willing (and have resources) for some extra mentoring, bootcamps can be a very good additional pool for hiring (since hiring engineers is very hard is most places) and can be very good long term for your company.

I joined a YC startup after my bootcamp and continued to work my ass off there for a year (during work, and after work to continue to learn CS concepts etc.) and I think I can say I was successful there. I had good mentoring despite our size (3-4 engineers at most) but I eventually became a good asset to the company.

After 1 years, the company was sold and I needed to find a new job. I did well on multiple interviews, both startups and big cos (facebook and co) and am now very successful at a top startup in the bay.

You just need to expect what is expectable - I remember when I did my bootcamp, I was never promised to get a CS degree in 3 months - I was promised to learn the basics I would need to 1. be hirable at a junior level and 2. learn how to learn, to be able to figure things myself and continue growing. That's what I got from it.

I think everything's the same - if you are motivated and driven to be successful, you'll be successful, if not, cruising through both a CS degree or a bootcamp won't do it. I've interviewed hundreds of people, from bootcamps, new grads, masters, phds, experienced people, and people from each background have done from bad to great.

This isn't to take away from your success at all, and it's great that you're happy with the outcome. But I think there are some self-selection biases involved in success stories that go unmentioned, likely due to a lack of people asking the right questions.

Did you have a college degree before the bootcamp? People frequently mention you don't need a computer science degree, but plenty of places require a bachelors for standard office work. And having gone through a bachelors program might prepare someone for the "learning how to learn" aspect that's required for survival after the bootcamp.

Did you possess any prior technological aptitude(s)?

How much prior experience with mathematics did you have? Are you good at math, or able to understand it with enough work?

How strong are your logical skills, and how were they maintained prior to the bootcamp?

Anything else relevant? Autodidact? Connections to other people? Occupations of parents?

Also, having the financial resources to pursue a bootcamp as an option might also be indicative of something.

I think my point is that the promise of a bootcamp as guaranteed success no matter what your background seems uncertain without more data.

Speaking of self-selection...on HN, we're likely to hear testimonials from successful bootcamp graduates because -- assuming "success" equates to having a programming job and/or enjoying/understanding programming -- those are the type of people who are most likely to go on to visit and participate in HN discussions (though I know at least one bootcamp that tells its students on day one that they should be visiting HN's front page every day). While people who are dissatisfied with their experiences are just as/more likely to speak out about it -- I mean in general, such as a dining experience or App Store review -- they probably use another, more general forum for that.

Many of the bootcamps rely on this self-selection as an aspect of their admissions, to ensure their post-program hire numbers stay high. For example, having a technical interview with a high failure rate, followed by about 80 hours of precourse work, followed by another failure chance on a precourse test. Those that have the desire and ability to learn enough technical material to first pass the technical interview, and then complete the precourse work, probably would have figured out a good deal of developer skills on their own anyway.

well yeah they are really select, but taking this into account goes in the same direction as saying that then it's fine to hire people from those bootcamp because the selection has already been made, right?

Most of the good bootcamps are likely to be more selective for these reasons, but we also don't get to see the data published in a transparent way to prove it.

It's something that I think should be more open and verifiable, and that would include being able to verify that the published data is legitimate. Because it might help prevent against shadier operations who would obviously not release this data or attempt to fake it. If they're a for-profit entity, it's not in their interest to release accurate data if it were to be bad for business.

It might be in the interest of the best bootcamps to lead by example here to prevent the proliferation of scam bootscamps that tarnish everyone's image.

you are right. good questions. So I had a bachelor's degree, but from a business school which I don't think gave me any "direct" skills needed for it. Maybe some stats classes etc. but I feel like this helped me very little. I don't think any of my jobs required me to have a degree and a lot of my current co-workers are self taught too.

I don't feel like any bootcamp guarantees success, at least no more than a bachelor's. I had a lot of trouble getting a job despite a good degree in Canada, and am now way more successful with a bootcamp in the bay area.

I'm not trying to say one is better, they are just different way of learning, different experiences and different length, so each work with different type of people I guess.

Thanks for sharing. I don't have a computer science degree so I find it interesting to hear.

And being in school for those years doesn't tend to make people more stupid, so maybe it had some effect. I think people underestimate how quickly some skills like math atrophy when they go unused, or even more basic skills than that.

It's funny to see such strong regional differences. Here, I believe it's normal for temping agencies to turn people away unless they have a 4 year degree (and a 2-year degree isn't considered valuable). I always get the impression that the Bay area is the most open to people taking this route.

It seems like most tech hubs are ok with that. Since early on I've been contacted by startups also from NYC/Seattle area. I think it's like everything else, in areas where it's hard to hire engineers, companies will be willing to take open up their requirements... We're lucky in the tech industries, where positions and promotions are not based on degrees. Might be helpful for the first job but once you've got 1+ years of xp, it's all about what you can do, not your degree.

Most of my friends in other industries HAVE to go back to school for an MBA or other degree because their company "only give X positions to MBA". Stupid.

Couldn't you have done it using Internet, books, video tutorials, etc.?

I did, as I'm sure many here have as well. However, not everybody has that kind of self motivitation.

Some people need that $30k expenditure to keep their wandering minds in check when the going gets tough at the beginning.

I remember my first paid experience coding...was reading/learning 6+ hours every day on top of the project itself.

Not the OP, but for me, I'll be honest with you: no, I probably couldn't have. I was holding down a full time job, working part time elsewhere, and between two jobs, hitting the gym, and holding down something of a social life, I didn't really have the bandwidth to do anything else. I could have stopped working out and going out, but that would have cratered my mental and physical health. The bootcamp I went to let me put everything else aside and make that jump.

Not the person you asked - but I did it with those resources while holding down a more than full time engineering job (not in software). Most people don't have the drive to do it on their own and that's fine too. Getting guided through a 3 month bootcamp is a straightforward way of learning the basics of software development.

With that said, I can't say enough good things about developing the skills of self-education. I was homeschooled K-12, so I probably have a leg up in that department.

Maybe. Not sure. I had nobody around me who had those skills to ask questions to, to help, etc. One of the biggest advantage of those bootcamp is being surrounded by 1. teachers helping you, 2. other very motivated people offering help, people to relate to and peer pressure, and 3. a better curriculum to follow (since as a beginner you don't really know what's valuable to learn or not) and 4. help to get a job through mock interviews and intros to startups.

I did a bootcamp after having worked a year as a developer. A job I got by being self-taught. The advantages were huge. I got to learn how to interview properly, getting a feeling for where I was skill wise, have an awesome network of people who were also into programming, and have a clear roadmap for what to do next. Basically, a bootcamp can provide a lot more than just teaching you how to code. People forget there's a certain insecurity that comes with being self-taught that can be hard to shake off.

All really great responses already to this comment but to add one more - a bootcamp is a structured and trialled course. Ultimately this leads to fast acceleration in learning:

The topics you learn are current and high priority (e.g. learning to write clean and readable code while or testing)

Common issues are well documented/there is a support network in place - you hit diminishing returns on learning quite fast when you get stuck.

Yes, you could probably learn this stuff yourself but it'll take longer and don't underestimate the value of collective intelligence/group learning

Congrats to the success! May I ask what bootcamp you attended?

I did the 3rd cohort of Devbootcamp - which I guess was one of the first if not the first to at least work out and be successful. I was also very lucky to do this very early one (3+ years) now when less bootcamp were out there

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