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Comment by kdamken | Hacker News Reader

I think this guy may actually just be dumb. Yes, C-Suite positions make more money, and get to make more decisions. If he wanted to do that, it sounds like he could have at any time. Of course just being a programmer would earn you less.

> Being a programmer for nearly 35 years...

> I doubt I will ever be able to really retire.

How do you have a good paying job like being a programmer/the other high level gigs he mentioned for 35 YEARS and still not have the assets to retire? How do you manage your money that poorly?

Did you buy a house that was way too big? Some brand new cars you have a nice, several hundred dollar monthly payment on? Did you not save 30-50% of what was probably a very fat paycheck?

It's one thing for someone working minimum wage their whole life to not be able to, but barring some crazy expense like medical bills, people with white collar jobs don't really have much of an excuse.

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Unfortunately, it seems like he dropped the ball in some major ways. So Apple started to take off a few years after you left? Then taking your fucking amazing technical and leadership skills to Apple! The post-startup is blowing it in terms of product development and the competition is eating their lunch? Then join the fucking competition.

Programmers/engineers can change some important things. For example, our employers. If you're a strong engineer in a shitty situation, then find something better. It might even help you retire (like joining Apple in the late 90s).

I agree changing employers is one thing to do.

What do you do if you're not a strong engineer but in a shitty situation?

Well, become a better one or just deal with the current situation? In my opinion, you can't just expect good things to happen.

Not sure it's fair to judge without knowing the whole story. Maybe he has other costly obligations that you don't know about. Maybe an expensive health condition. Stock market went down. Debts, whatever. Or, he just encountered a string of bad luck (left Apple in the late 90's--oops!). Without those facts, blanket statements like "how do you manage your money that poorly" are unfair.

True - it's impossible to know every detail of his situation. That's why I put the disclaimer about his health. Regardless of those things though, for most people making a decent salary, they can put themselves in a good position for most scenarios by:

- Saving as much as they can of what they're earning. Ideally at least 50%

- Avoiding debt

- Investing their money in low cost index funds

Much easier said than done, especially when you have children.

Or student loans, or alimony obligations, or sick parents to house and take care of, or any number of legitimate reasons why normal people don't tend to save 50% of their income.

My guess is the "ISO Standard Ideal Saver" whose entire income is disposable, has perfect health, no dependents, no hobbies, no debt or other obligations, etc. is the exception, not the rule.

Obviously you may not always be in a position to follow this exactly, but regardless of who you are it's a solid plan to aspire to.

Even if you can only save $100 a month. Or if you can avoid using a credit card to buy things you don't really need, like a new tv to replace your old one that works fine.

The average person who is not currently dealing with a significant life crisis could follow some of this, but often chooses not to, either due to not knowing any better or lack of self control.

I may sound like an old fart, I am one too, but you sound like a very young one. Peeked at your profile and I see I'm right. May you grow up without troublesome times in your life.

May I add to the list of 'excuses':

- Getting hit by a bursting tech-bubble (as I was, we're talking a significant hit in terms of employment as well as retirement accounts, stock market and having to drain existing reserves)

- Living in a region where rising rents exceed salary increases without changing jobs (I saw the light only 3 years ago when I left NYC for NJ after 20 years). Living in PA, I think you may lack some perspective on the latter.

- Having a child didn't just cost $$$ (as others have mentioned) but made me realize that traveling 50% of the time for 30% more money just wasn't worth it to me. It's something else entirely to be responsible just for yourself (I love peanut-butter sandwiches!) and the resulting 'pressure' one may feel to provide a stable, but not salary-maximized, situation for your family. Don't forget health insurance needs. It also makes you more risk-averse.

All of this hampers your career/salary. Sure, they're all personal choices, but not easy ones.

Glad I made mine though. Soon enough the kid will be gone forever.

I appreciate any perspective from people who are much older. I see having a family someday as one of the larger financial variables for me in the coming decades, so I try to prepare for that as best I can.

In defense of my age (and implied lack of life experience), I've unfortunately had significant medical issues in my twenties, which in turn led to some decent sized bills I've had to take care of, so I know a bit about troublesome times.

Be prepared for the family thing to cost a whole lot more than you think. I was living on about 10K/year back in the day. I assumed at worst my future (at the time) family of 4 would live on 40K/year, with "economy of scale" reducing it to the mid 30's. Ha! Sure I was fine living in cramped quarters, spaghetti every night, one new $5 shirt / year. Doesn't really work that way with kids. Essentially expect after about three years to wonder where all your previous three years' income has gone. (I'm only 3 years in, so I'm not sure what comes next--I assume it's "make a budget", which I did diligently in my 20's, but it's much more difficult to find time to make a (now, negotiated!) budget with munchkins fighting for attention 24/7).

As a corollary, be prepared to worry about money way more than you had anticipated back when you were 30 and diligently following Mr. Moustache to an early retirement.

As far as career advice, it's tough to say. I've had a good career but feel I'm in a difficult spot now. The last five years I've been independent but 95% of my work has been as the lone dev for one startup, whose best days suddenly seem to be in the rear-view. It's been great work and the job has been wonderfly flexible, but now I'm left to wonder, if they die who wants to hire a 40 year old developer (a really good one IMO but who's to say) with just kind of a miscellany of experience and hasn't worked with a team in five years (especially in small-town Michigan). Who knows, maybe lots of people. But I think the moral of the story is "don't paint yourself into a corner". Do good work, work with lots of people (my mistake), make them respect you, and you should be alright in the end.

My assumption would be that he means this a bit less than literally. I'm 40 now, have always lived frugally, and could reasonably retire now. But when retirement starts to look like a real thing in front of you, all you can think about is the "what ifs". Medical bills, kids college tuition in 15 years, stock market crashes, living to 120. And looking back, if I had the opportunity to make 10x, that's such a huge difference not in the amount of "stuff" I'd buy, but the amount of security I'd feel making the jump to retirement.

Mr Money Mustache was a programmer and retired in something near 10 yrs of work. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-sim...

Based Mr. Money Mustache. Finding that blog completely changed how I view money.

I agree that materialistic thinking and living certainly contributes to lack of savings/retirement assets. But so does simply having a family, especially as a single parent or when the spouse doesn't work.

You might say "well, the spouse can go work," but it's rarely that simple considering the costs of child care and how it may weigh on the spouse's potential salary. Then factor in if the spouse can even get a higher paying job to offset said costs. Then add in the trouble with the spouse even obtaining a job due to not having a bachelor degree.

Everything feeds into everything else. No one situation can easily have the same resolution as another situation.

I agree that there is no excuse to not trying. But there may be reasons for not succeeding.

In America at least, the median salary for a Programmer is more than enough that with properly managed funds, you can have a spouse who doesn't work and still live quite well.

Remember- the median income here is $52k. I'm in Boise, ID, one of the cheapest cost of living areas in America, and our junior developers start above that.

My first job was working for Micron in Boise, ID, and I lived like royalty on their college-hire engineer salary. Loved the town, wasn't into the work.

I'd move back to Boise in a heartbeat.

It's really great, and I've found a wonderful job here with the best coworkers I've ever had. Also get to experiment with cool technologies quite often.

I live in a place with a slightly higher COL and make about that with no benefits. I also have about 4 years experience. Some people just make shitty career choices or don't get lucky/unlucky.

Then keep looking? The market favors the developer right now.

Oh I do. But I hear this a lot more than I see it, especially in the Midwest without a degree.

You're describing how my career started! Hahahah. Yeah, it can definitely be difficult, but the jobs are definitely out there.

The easiest ways to find a job you don't hate that pays what it should is paying attention to the right technologies. Sadly, the percentage of crap jobs that are using older technologies like PHP, Java, and C# is much higher than those working with Ruby, JS, or Golang. This isn't to say it's impossible of course- but it can help narrow things down. So I'd say, try to find a technology you like most in your spare time, and look in that area.

The second thing, is give remote work a shot. Sites like weworkremotely.com almost guarantee better conditions, because often the companies hiring are both better-informed and located somewhere that a 10-20k salary bump is barely noticeable, and even if it was, they know who butters their bread.

I make nearly 3x the median income of my area but my expenses are far from being in a state of luxury living. Housing is one of the highest in the state here due to price inflation by retirees (cash buyers drive prices up which is counterintuitive to me) as well as the sheer lack of housing inventory let alone ones affordable to the service worker caste. Then comes my spouse not working in a lucrative field while medical expenses keep accruing for various maladies that years ago would have been as alley percentage of income. Furthermore, my parents are aging and will likely need support in time or capital as well as my spouse's which can preclude me from taking opportunities that require a lot of continuous time dedication or are intolerant of random, non-negotiable interruptions. Constantly moving for my household to try to find living situations that can balance both our careers is extremely difficult (not so difficult if both are fine wine metro areas but then living costs go up once again quickly).

But beyond that, if you can't practice appropriate fiscal frugality to meet your long term goals (really common I've found) you're looking at increased expenses on luxuries like island vacations, eating out frequently, discretionary travel in general, and so forth.

It's really hard to explain to those that are typical American consumers how you could earn $180k+ / year but are trying to live like you earn $60k.

My spouse doesn't work. I'm nearly 25 and on/above target on my 401k savings and am slowly gaining money in regular savings accounts too. I made some bad decisions with debt a few years ago or I'd be even farther ahead.

I live in Missouri though, which has pretty low cost of living.

I appreciate your intention, but I don't think you can really lecture anyone on retirement savings when you're in your 20s. I'm in my 20s myself and wouldn't do it. Check back in 30 years -- maybe you'll have gotten lucky and not had any major financial drains, or maybe you won't've.

People in my family had hundreds of ks saved up for retirement and have lost it all in their 50s. Now they're in their 60s and have no foreseeable path to retirement. Unexpected events happen.

Just out of curiosity, what happened to them? Besides significant medical or legal expenses, it's hard for me to picture.

My parents also lost all of their funds in their 50s due to the stock market crash, but they were getting close to retirement and shouldn't have had their funds in high risk.

Exactly my feelings after reading the article. He's either not making smart investments or not investing for retirement at all.

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