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Comment by resu_nimda | Hacker News Reader

I was with you right up until the last line. I don't understand why most people view nihilism as bleak and depressing. Why do we crave meaning to give us direction?

Nihilism feels so liberating to me. I have thoughts like these daily, they serve to remind me that we don't have to do the rituals if we don't want to. We can do whatever we want. At any moment. And nobody can say it's "wrong" or "bad," because those concepts don't exist in the universe at large. There's no point, there's no meaning, there's no goal - it's an open sandbox. Go play, while you still have the chance!

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The article seems to have been edited, previously it ended with "It makes me want to not keep living" or something to that effect, instead of the quote from Ecclesiastes.

Yeah, I didn't expect it to blow up that much, and that line left me feeling a bit too vulnerable than I would've liked to be.

No worries, though I would be interested to hear your thoughts on my position...do you see yourself ever "embracing nihilism" as another commenter put it, and using it as a source of encouragement rather than depression?

Hum, I think I do interpret it in a positive way most of the time, though there are other times, esp when I see otherwise fine people struggling to get this badge or that validation(plus comparing it to other people's), and beating themselves over it. Its less me having difficulties embracing nihilism but more wishing that it was a more accessible and talked about idea, so that you wouldn't see these amazing people killing themselves over a failed exam and falling into depression comparing themselves to others who seemingly have 'made something of their life', good for them. It's like the race has become the existing reality that we forget it's just that. I was inspired to write the article just after this conversation with a friend, who is an insanely talented coder, who has decided that since he was already 25, it was too late for him to 'accomplish' anything, and he was thereby a 'loser'. I find my brother in a similar situation of angst for not 'accomplishing' something (he's 22). Countless otehr very close friends echoing similar sentiments (maybe it's a 20's thing?). I understand wanting to discover cool stuff, getting closer to the absolute truth, but I don't understand beating yourself up because you did not meet a randomly assigned deadline, and assuming that some-one is a loser by default unless they can prove otherwise (Remonds me of how religion works, you are a sinner now do these things and give us all this money). That's what takes me down in the end.

Fully agreed there. It's easy to get caught up in the rat race when everyone around you is doing the same, and it can make you feel crazy to be the only one saying "guys, what are we actually doing all this for?" But ultimately, you can't beat yourself up over others beating themselves up.

Another way to think of it is: I don't like Donald Trump. I think what he does is wrong and bad, and it saddens and angers me if I let it. But, if I hold true to my beliefs, then he's just another part of the universe playing itself out, which will continue inexorably regardless of how I feel about it, so there's no sense in getting mad about it.

Nihilism says play itself is meaningless. Not that I disagree that play is important, but it's your own meaning, your own value that you've either held on to or come up with. Frankly it's by rediscovering things like play that I was able to crawl back out of the abyss.

Of course play is meaningless. Killing yourself right now is an equally valid choice. It doesn't matter, do whatever. Go on a murderous rampage if you want. If you believe in material monism, then free will is essentially an illusion anyway.

It's pretty difficult, as an animal brain subject to the illusion, to fully commit to living life that way, but I like to keep it in mind...

For something to be meaningless, there has to be something else that is meaningful, the definition only makes sense in opposition to something else, just like light is only light compared to the dark. So for life to be meaningless, you have to find something else that has meaning. What in your mind has meaning?

Does everything have to be a duality like that? Can you have darkness without the concept of light?

I believe in monism - ultimately there is only one thing, or one type of thing. It is not contrasted with anything else[1]. That's why it's not meaningful or meaningless, good or bad, right or wrong - it just "is."

[1] Except, perhaps, complete nothingness, utter void. So in that sense everything that exists is meaningful, and only pure nothingness is meaningless.

"Does everything have to be a duality like that? Can you have darkness without the concept of light?"

Can you have darkness without the concept of light? Simply put, no.

If you'd like another example, how about this... If there were no objects in the Universe, only free space, would gravity exist?

> "I believe in monism - ultimately there is only one thing, or one type of thing. It is not contrasted with anything else[1]. That's why it's not meaningful or meaningless, good or bad, right or wrong - it just "is."

[1] Except, perhaps, complete nothingness, utter void. So in that sense everything that exists is meaningful, and only pure nothingness is meaningless."

Have you considered there's another explanation that is the polar opposite to nihilism? Whilst it may not be what you thought of before, your comments above would suggest you'd be open to that possibility. To start exploring this...

If there were no objects in the Universe, only free space, would gravity exist?

I don't know what to make of a hypothetical like that. It seems nonsensical, just like a universe without light, or the absence of a universe, the concept of pure emptiness or nothingness. We can't conceive of these scenarios because they preclude our own existence and ability to conceive of anything.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you're driving at...was the comment left unfinished for some sort of meta purpose?

> "Anyway, I'm not sure what you're driving at...was the comment left unfinished for some sort of meta purpose?"

Sorry about that, it wasn't my intention. Sometimes I'll leave a post half finished when I'm looking up a link because my phone's web browser has a habit of erasing partially complete comments when I change tabs, so my only reliable option is to post what I have before I'm ready. In this case I took longer than I thought I would to look up a link for you. I won't promise it won't happen again, but I'll try to make what I'm doing clearer next time.

To see the opposite to nihilism, let's first look at interconnectedness. What are your thoughts on the ideas in this video?

http://youtu.be/HM31KBLRQTg

I agree with those ideas, and they are pretty consistent with monist philosophy. I often think of life as one big unbroken chain, one system, and then that of course extends to the planet, solar system, galaxy, and so on. The fact that I "consciously" view myself as a "human" living a "lifetime" is just a very curious phenomenon, the illusion I mentioned.

I don't see it as the opposite of nihilism, it's two sides of the same coin. When you take it to such an extreme, things break down. Is there no meaning, or is everything meaningful? What's the difference?

> "I don't see it as the opposite of nihilism, it's two sides of the same coin."

Two sides of the same coin is the opposite! Using rough definitions, nihilism is that nothing matters, the opposite (which I don't have a name for) is that everything matters. Taken further, this interconnectedness means that we are all the universe, we are all God. I'd recommend checking out more Alan Watts videos to have this explained better, he looks at it in various ways. Here are a couple of short ones, though I'd recommend his longer talks (I think the music often found on the shorter ones can detract from the clarity of the message sometimes):

http://youtu.be/ssf7P-Sgcrk

http://youtu.be/mMRrCYPxD0I

It's just a matter of interpretation. Yes, heads and tails are opposites, but it's still one coin. :) The idiom implies a similarity or close relationship between the two.

Functionally, in terms of how you go about your life, what is the difference between these "opposite" philosophies? I'll check out the videos but my guess is I have already incorporated the ideas.

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