Slowly Poisoned by Energy Drinks | Hacker News Reader

Slowly Poisoned by Energy Drinks

yiddish.ninja

77 pointsburgerguyg86 comments

Ah... Fuck. I feel like this is the signal I've been waiting for all these years :(

Since 2006 (in uni), when I was first introduced to energy drinks, I've been more or less addicted to them ever since. I even go so far as to regulate my consumption of them in cycles to get the most I can out of it: https://www.rdegges.com/2011/my-use-and-abuse-of-caffeine/

I never really liked the taste of coffee much (without loads of cream and sugar/splenda), so energy drinks were a happy medium because they taste really good, they come in lots of 0 sugar / calorie varieties (which is great when you're trying to stay in shape), and give you a LOT of caffeine per serving which makes me feel super high: happy, productive, focused.

Since 2006, I've probably had roughly 2 energy drinks per day (and over the last few years: maybe 4).

So... This really sucks.

I always "felt" like they were bad for me, but never really did any research as I knew it would most likely make me stop drinking them.

It's surprisingly easy to convince yourself not to look into something so you can continue justifying your actions. But now, I suppose, the fun is up.

It's really time I start being more careful with myself :(

You'll think you've become free, but all it takes is the right super-sale to bring you back: http://imgur.com/AxILSxw

If you're just in it for caffeine, I occasionally quit carbonated drinks and substitute with water or tea and 200mg caffeine pills.

Pills also have the advantage of more consistent dosage vs tea/coffee. Plus no calories, cheaper, and no taste so you won't find yourself going back just for the flavor.

Pills also have the disadvantage that it is much, much easier to overdose on pills than tea/coffee.

Be careful while you wean yourself off your addiction. Drink plenty of water and take a few naps when the headaches come. You'll be fine after a day or two.

If you want to be awake during the day, then get at least seven hours of sleep a night, preferably eight. If you really need caffeine some days, have one or two cups of coffee or black tea, no sugar added. But don't have caffeine every day or you'll regain that addiction. If your work schedule doesn't allow this, then accept that you are shortening your life and decreasing your quality of life for the sake of your work.

It's your life, make your decisions accordingly.

Thanks for the useful comment! I'll definitely do this.

Maybe back when I was getting started I'd continue it to be a 'cost of business', but at this point in my life? No way! I'd rather be healthy / happy / more balanced.

I appreciate the advice =)

The evidence against coffee is inconclusive.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply coffee was harmful. I was warning against a recurring chemical addiction to caffeine, which, speaking from experience, is very real.

I would advise learning to enjoy the taste of coffee. Yes, all people are different but most people come to develop a taste for tea & coffee, which becomes a rewarding hobby of sorts.

for such high caffeine usage, you should really just commit to black coffee: an efficient, 0 calorie caffeine delivery system. dealing with a bad taste is much easier than having to deal with health issues down the road. plus, i imagine you'll end up getting used to the taste and liking it, just be sure to ask for the light roast.

You say that you don't like coffee: have you tried green tea? There's plenty of caffeine in normal green tea, and even more so in the like of Kabusecha or Gyokuro. Though I'm not sure I would recommend the latter for everyday consumption: it really has a lot of caffeine in it.

Black tea should work too. I personally don't like it much unless it comes with a heavy does of something else to mask the taste... but if you like it go for it!

Another reason to go easy on macha is lead, tea leaves often contain it, but it doesn't dissolve into your tea[1]. Macha-s let you digest a lot more leaf. Another option for people who want serious caffeine is yerba mate, which you can buy by the kilo quite cheaply. I find it too strong, but I gave up coffee years ago, too - green / white / oolong / black tea is plenty for me.

1: http://www.green-tea-guide.com/green-tea-lead.html

Black tea actually has about double the caffeine of typical green tea.

I must be one lucky bastard then - it seems that I can't get addicted to almost anything, be it cigarettes, alcohol, or energy drinks. I did have once a alcohol problem, but I can hardly call that addiction.

I like coffee a lot, but I don't crave it, and recently I had cut it out completely - my blood pressure got out of control, and once I almost fainted in the office (I had 160/100). Getting rid of stress, coffee, and a blood donation did wonders.

Be careful! I've never really been 'addicted' to anything other than caffeine. I've smoked cigars, etc., but never felt any sort of urge.

With caffeine though, it really elevates my mood, and makes me feel happy, and I think that has a lot to do with it.

Just be cautious and don't assume you won't get addicted to something! <33

Hey buddy,

I gave up on coffee after 2 years of having easily 6 coffees per day (espressos mostly). I had headaches and I wasn't as snappy as before for a few weeks, but now I feel much better.

I still drink coffee some times, but if I have one I have trouble sleeping that night. I instead have tea, which is one of the side effects of moving to England too ;-), and it works wonders to keep me responsive after lunch without affecting my sleep at night. They also taste great.

The best thing for me is that I now have a very good sleep every night as caffeine doesn't disturb it.

Take it easy, but get most of the caffeine out of your body. You'll feel great.

Did anyone think for a second that those things aren't bad for you?

Washing down multiple cans of it per day and coupled with an unhealthy lifestyle is a guarantee to have trouble down the line.

I'm astonished that the author seemed to expect a different outcome.

I was really bad for this at one time. Back in 2014 I was doing crazy shit like routinely working 14 hours a day or more, and in the evenings I would prop myself up by having a triple shot latte, followed by a Red Bull, and maybe a box or two of chocolate covered espresso beans. And I was doing this 5 or 6 days a week, for weeks on end. Not getting enough sleep, not watching my diet, not exercising, etc.

You can probably guess where this story leads... yep, onto the back of an ambulance, having a heart attack. :-(

Now anytime someone has a heart attack, there are probably a lot of factors involved. I can't sit here and say that energy drinks in particular caused mine. But in retrospect, the overall lifestyle I was living was not healthy and I paid for it.

So, long story short... don't be like me.

Why did you work that much?

Working a day job to pay the bills, and building a startup on the side.

I'm going to forward your comment to a friend of mine who is very much on the same track. Thanks for posting this.

The good news is, I lived, and the doctors tell me I should be fine as long as I commit to a healthy lifestyle going forward. So I got back into bicycle riding big time again, both road biking and mountain biking, and a typical meal for me now is something like I had for lunch today: a big plate of salad which was nothing but lettuce, salt, pepper, olive oil and a small amount of honey-ginger dressing.

I eat a lot of lettuce lately.. it's nice because it has few calories and takes up space in your stomach so it curbs my urge to snack all the time, which was a problem in the past.

Of course that's not all I eat, before somebody posts worrying that I'm going too far in the other direction. I still eat a lot of the same stuff I always did, but in moderation, and a lot more veggies now than in the past. And I mostly quit eating candy, chips, and other real low-value junk food.

Having a latte (with milk fat) and then a red bull sounds especially bad, as that provides a lot of fat for the vitamin absorption.

That is my initial reaction as well, but there isn't exactly a lot of evidence out there to definitively prove that they are bad for you.

We are also conditioned to accept massive doses of vitamins and minerals by the supplement market, to the point where 2000% B6 doesn't sound like it's a big deal. When you also consider personal variability in absorption rates, dose timing, and concurrent food intake, it's even harder to control for all the confounding variables when poor health manifests in an energy-drink consumer.

Where would you get a 2000% dose of B6?

I have a typical multivitamin pack, sold in Denmark, which provides 100% of B6. Are things different in the States?

Percent dosages vary a lot. I had a B-complex pack once that had as low as 20% of a daily dose of one compound and 2,000% of another.

The supplement industry in the US is completely unregulated and very predatory.

Yes. For a while, you could buy beta-phenyl-GABA in a mass-market grocery store here, right off the shelf. It sounds relatively harmless, but beta-phenyl-GABA is a flat-out synthetic GABA-B agonist [1] developed in Russia in the 1960s. It works similarly to the prescription drug Baclofen. It can cause physical dependence, and has a potentially-life-threatening withdrawal syndrome similar to that of alcohol or benzodiazepines.

When it comes to things labelled as "dietary supplements" in the US, the FDA is more-or-less asleep at the wheel IMO.

[1] Edit: I'm wrong, it's apparently a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabapentinoid like gabapentin and the DEA Schedule V drug pregabalin.

The original story mentioned drinking 5-hour energy drinks, or their generic equivalent. Take a look at the nutrition label. 2000% B6 and over 8000% B12!

http://www.energytin.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/ing...

Maybe not as high as 2000% but it is very common to see daily multi-vitamins contain doses well above 100% for individual vitamins. The explanation I've seen before stated that these vitamins are water soluble as opposed to fat soluble. You pee so much of them out that these vitamin manufacturers up the amount for better retention. I still fail to see why I would force more into my body than it wants to naturally accept.

I drank 2-3 Rockstars a day for a few months back in 2007. I knew they were probably not great for me. They made me shake. I just didn't think about it. I also couldn't stop drinking them, because I didn't get much sleep at night ... because I drank too many energy drinks.

Related: we don't often think about how much alcohol we drink or red meat we eat.

The cached version is here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iVkhl9b...

The issue appears to be the 2000% DV of B6. This isn't the first I've heard of this (e.g. with supplements). Most energy drinks don't have this in them. Be careful with vitamins and minerals. More isn't always better.

I used to occasionally drink Spike Shooter which contains 25,000% of B12. Supposedly you can't OD on B12 without a predisposed genetic condition. Still, I have no regrets moving away from energy drinks, I found my desire for them was simply a symptom of a bigger problem like not getting enough sleep.

While it's generally true that water-soluble vitamins are hard to overdose on, it's still true that you at the very least have an abnormally high (and possibly toxic) level of the compound in your bloodstream until your kidneys can excrete it. In the case of B6, it apparently takes years of overdose before the sensorimotor neuropathy becomes apparent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B6#Toxicity

The form of vitamin B6 in supplements is pyroxidine hydrochloride, which at high levels (mostly >100mg/day) can cause peripheral neuropathy. So can zinc.

A lot of times it's overlooked that the form of the vitamin is different from what the body usually receives/produces.

In case anyone is curious, Monster has 200% DV of B6 in a 16 oz can.

I was really surprised that the B6 was the issue. I always thought that since B vitamins were water soluble they didn't build up in the body, never thought they would be harmful at such mega doses. Will definitely re-think vitamin supplements now.

tl;dr: "5 hour energy", as well as Costco's generic version thereof, contain a megadose of vitamin B6 which is not safe for daily consumption.

The lesson you should take from this is that, when taking a combination drug like an energy drink, you have to go through ingredient by ingredient checking the dosages and reading the corresponding wikipedia pages. I do consume energy drinks, but I used that procedure to reject the brand that's reported causing a problem here.

It's almost like making a habit of consuming something with addictive properties is a bad idea.

Yeah, they're good for helping finish a late-night essay or helping sustain your programming train of thought... but they're not designed to be used often. Too much of anything will more often than not kill you.

Over 12 years old: drink only water, tea, coffee, beer, and single malt whiskey. Period.

Yerba Mate too :)

+ Gin. Because gin.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_cancer

Wine?

Heretic! Wine is far superior to beer.

And then there is milk. Does beer contain proteins and fats? No.

> and single malt whiskey

Ripper: Mandrake?

Mandrake: Yes, Jack?

Ripper: Have you ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water?

Mandrake: Well, I can't say I have.

Ripper: Vodka, that's what they drink, isn't it? Never water?

Mandrake: Well, I-I believe that's what they drink, Jack, yes.

Ripper: On no account will a Commie ever drink water, and not without good reason.

Mandrake: Oh, eh, yes. I, uhm, can't quite see what you're getting at, Jack.

Ripper: Water, that's what I'm getting at, water. Mandrake, water is the source of all life. Seven-tenths of this earth's surface is water. Why, do you realize that seventy percent of you is water?

Mandrake: Uh, uh, Good Lord!

Ripper: And as human beings, you and I need fresh, pure water to replenish our precious bodily fluids.

Mandrake: Yes.

Ripper: Are you beginning to understand?

Mandrake: Yes.

Ripper: Mandrake. Mandrake, have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water, or rain water, and only pure-grain alcohol?

Mandrake: Well, it did occur to me, Jack, yes.

Ripper: Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation. Fluoridation of water?

Mandrake: Uh? Yes, I-I have heard of that, Jack, yes. Yes.

Ripper: Well, do you know what it is?

Mandrake: No, no I don't know what it is, no.

Ripper: Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?

Agreed on the single malt. I have heard that no 'true' Scotsman would touch blended. Is that true?

A true Scotsman is also thrifty - a good blend can be a good value.

I cut out sweeteners, real or artificial, over 5 years ago.

And preferably only single malt whiskey that is over 12 years old.

Unless it's Ardbeg, then you can get away with 10

I'd have a lot of trouble hitting my daily protein target without milk (and whey, but that's not really a drink).

I also don't really see why beer is included.

Honestly, Ethanol is straight up toxic and we probably shouldn't drink it. We just grandfathered it in because our ancestors were getting drunk off fermenting fruit way before the genus Homo even existed.

I dunno. I don't think there would have been civilization had there not been beer.

I was involved in the nootropics community for years, doing Gwen.net style double blinded assessments on various compounds. The biggest thing I've learned (aside from the fact that almost all nootropics are ineffective or only marginally effective, the marginally effective being the most popular: nicotine, caffeine, modafinil and amphetamines) is, if you're using performance enhancing drugs, you have to be honest with yourself about this and be really nerdy about it. Proprietary blends and energy drinks are just bad news. I would recommend taking caffeine pills instead of energy drinks. You can easily optimize your dose and you know what your taking. You can also get a years supply of caffeine for like 20 bucks in pill form. Being honest with yourself about the fact that you don't so much like the taste of coffee as the highly-addictive drug in it can save you a decent amount of money.

There's no evidence that any of the other compounds in energy drinks beside caffeine do anything for alertness, and caffeine is a very safe drug.

I actually did a MindCamp session on making your own energy drinks 6+ years ago. The live demo/taster was a double-shot mocha with 150 mg of powdered caffeine (in solution), a bottle of shelf-stable chocolate milk (because I was at a conf), and a tablespoon of Torani Kahlua-flavored syrup.

Dude! I remember that! You had more than the LD50 of caffeine for the entire conference in the canister.

I used to be an energy drink addict. I drank two Rockstar a day for several years. I stopped cold turkey and my skin and health in general improved. I also swore off drinking anything in an aluminum can because of the BPA lining. Larger energy drinks have the largest detectable amounts of BPA in them.[1]

These days I drink bulletproof coffee that I make at home and keep in a stainless steel mug. It takes a bit of getting used to, but drinking butter + mct oil+ coffee without sweeteeners is a pretty good way to start the day, IMHO. I feel much healthier because of it and love that it's compatible with the ketogenic diet, which I have lost about 20 lbs doing.

[1]http://www.ewg.org/enviroblog/2009/03/health-canada-finds-bp...

Same here, but Monster was my poison of choice. I lost 50 lbs with keto and haven't looked back. Everything just got better.

I think bulletproof coffee is a bit overrated though. I tried it and couldn't get into it, and that's with very good quality coffee. A bit of heavy cream is nice sometimes though.

tl;dr

Continued consumption of energy drinks like 5 Hour Energy / Costco Energy Shot / RockStar Pure Zero gave him the 2000% of the US recommended daily B6 of 2mg. Main effect: numbness in half of the body, a known side effect of B6 overdosing.

Just the Costco Energy Shot was 2000% of the US RDA. His total consumption was 2600% if I'm reading his post right.

Interestingly, 46mg per day is still well below the value that's generally considered the safe upper limit: 100mg [1]. Presumably he also got some B6 from food, but probably not more than 1-2 mg.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16320662

I live by my grandpa motto, everything is poison, vary them and your diet to avoid be poisoned to fast by one single source.

Thank goodness that coffee is something I actually like. I stick to no more than 4 cups a day, 5 cups if I'm feeling lucky. And by a cup, I mean an 8 oz cup (a 20oz to me is 2.5 cups of coffee).

When I was in college I was admitted to the ER for arrythmia. The condition was exacerbated by excess caffeine. I went from a pot of coffee a day to 3 cups a day for years, this included exercise and meditation. I refuse to touch energy drinks; while it gives me a shot of energy, prolonged use has consequences like my visit to the ER due to excessive coffee intake. I'd rather focus on getting the correct amount of sleep and taking regular breaks to recoup my energy rather than relying on coffee to feel awake.

I will never understand people who take drugs for working. Drugs are supposed to be for fun!

For B6, 46mg by 10am isn't very much. Most B6 supplements come in 100mg capsules.

The FNB noted that although several reports show sensory neuropathy occurring at doses lower than 500 mg/day, studies in patients treated with vitamin B6 (average dose of 200 mg/day) for up to 5 years found no evidence of this effect. Based on limitations in the data on potential harms from long-term use, the FNB halved the dose used in these studies to establish a UL of 100 mg/day for adults.

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB6-HealthProfession...

If anybody needed an article or a news report to realize that an energy drink is far from "healthy" then I pity them.

Just take a quick glance at the ingredient list: Sugar. Caffeine. High-fructose corn syrup.

This is the case with most off the shelf beverages and processed foods. Remember: The majority of manufacturers do not care about your well-being or health. Toxic ingredients are so abundant, that eating "healthy" in the 21st century is a massive under-taking. Green tea might be a better and somewhat healthier substitute to any energy drink addicts that are reading this.

Just take a quick glance at the ingredient list: Sugar. Caffeine. High-fructose corn syrup.

If they are not in the US and they took a sugarfree version, they'd only see caffeine, and that wasn't what caused the problem here, so that's not great advice.

TLDR OP overdosed on B6.

Sometimes I drink the Runa energy drinks and I can verify they have no supplemental B6. I can also verify they taste really bizarre and many people cannot stomach them. Ironically the only thing making the taste of "regular energy drinks" drinkable is weird artificial flavorings and tons of syrupy carbs. Its not as weird tasting as some liquors, someone who can stomach a shot of scotch will probably be fine with a Runa. They taste like strong green tea mixed with a paint store, if that makes any sense.

I was mystified by the claims of poisoning because the dose where people start getting sick according to the medical data I found is about 5000% of the RDA. Only two documented cases in the whole world have resulted in problems at or below 5000% of the RDA. OP is something of a medical miracle to have been the third person on the planet to get symptoms below 5000%. I suppose somebody has to be the unlucky one. More than 50000% of RDA, about 10 times higher, is generally medically recognized as being unsafe for people in general. The ED/LD ratio for B6 is pretty safe compared to aspirin or tylenol or alcohol for that matter.

From wikipedia "For vitamin B6 labeling purposes 100% of the Daily Value is 2.0 mg."

The guy blames his rockstar drink, his 5 hour energy shot, and his supplements equally, but I checked online and the rockstar he's blaming is only 100% of the RDA (which is none the less a bit high) but the "Kirkland energy shot" is marked as 40 mg of B6 which is about 2000% of his RDA! That is a WTF product right there.

http://www.caffeineinformer.com/caffeine-content/kirkland-en...

Doing some math his unnamed OTC vitamin supplement is providing 4 mg or 200% of the RDA. Which is also unreasonably high, although not dangerously so.

I would say the title is very misleading as many (most?) energy drinks don't have near toxic levels of B6. One very specific generic copy of a brand does have a level that sickens people at a rate of 0.5 parts per billion but its still only about a tenth of what most medical professionals think would sicken most people.

What is funny is that energy drinks can be zero calories - no energy!

I still consume energy drinks, right now I am drinking a rip it sugar free zero carb/calorie energy drink with 120% vitamin C, 100% vitamin B6 and 170% vitamin B12. Sure I can probably skip this and slug through the day, but I find it's a good balance for me, other than this all I drink is water and I only have a single serving a day.

Check your can. You sure you are only having one serving?

Yes. 8 fl oz.

Yup. Guessed it was B vitamins before reading through the entire article. As always, too much of a good thing. Most energy drinks contain a ton of B12 and B6—and I've suspected for a long time is actually more responsible for the feeling of energy from these drinks than caffeine or taurine.

I doubt the B12 you see in most energy drinks are the more expensive/absorbable form (Methylcobalamin) and not the cheap and less absorbable (adenosylcobalamin), I could be wrong though.

Well this strikes close to home. During grad school, I'd drink a red bull (or two) a day. Now, I've quit caffeine completely (save a tiny cup of coffee in the morning occasionally).

I hope the author has a quick and easy recovery.

My solution to getting enough caffeine: a 50 cent 100 gramm bag of roasted robusta beans.

They also taste pretty nice, if you eat them singly. Much better than any coffee that can be brewed from such..

Really?? It takes a trip to the hospital with paralysis before you notice that shit is poison? The heart palpitations and industrial aftertaste didn't give you any hints?

Actually, you poisoned yourself. You payed little to no attention to what you were consuming.

Wait, are we supposed to be surprised by this?

Is there a mirror or tl;dr? Looks like it got taken down by traffic.

Database error.... really

Really, that's what it said. Op seems to have resolved the problem. Here's the cached version if not. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iVkhl9b...

I find that those energy shots really help if you need to stay up for a party, etc. But taking them every day, that's nuts.

But taking them every day, that's nuts.

And yet, that's precisely what their manufacturers want you to do.

I'm sure they'd like us to do all sorts of crazy things. Doesn't mean we should.

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