Tell HN: We built a solar-charging wireless backup camera for your car | Hacker News Reader

Tell HN: We built a solar-charging wireless backup camera for your car

pearlauto.com

77 pointsmrshoe93 comments

Great Product - Congrats on thinking thru and designing for a "Wire-Free" experience, with Solar batteries and the clever hack of the OBD port connector to offload some functions (wake-up on reversing etc).

That said - it seems it is 2-3 years too late to be launching this.

1)By 1 May 2018, all new US Cars will have back-up cameras by law [1]

2) Most Cars sold since 2011/12 seem to have integrated back-up cameras

3) $500 for a Car accessory (!) that by definition will be fitted on a lower end car older model (since high end cars had this for a while) aka Low sales.

4)OBD port contention

Pivot Idea - Dash cam recorder (go in front plate) with AI for alerting based on User set rules (in addition to Dash Cam recording)

[1]: https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/nhtsa-announces...

Edit: Why in the name of funk did you design your website to take away manual scrollability? If I want to quickly skim it I have to endure the pointless transitions - I get that you want to enforce a certain flow - but let me cleanly escape out of it as well,

I was excited to see something like this (my mom has been needing one), but when I saw the price I thought the same thing. Why not get a professionally installed one that's more convenient and harder for someone to steal for the same price?

Yep, with the coming regulatory requirement on manufacturers to equip new cars sold in the USA with builtin backup cameras, the potential addressable market in the USA will shrink steadily as time goes on, and as newer cars replace older ones. Even so there are (guessing) ~100MM cars on US roads that do not have backup cameras and might want one. And also commercial trucks - where a camera is sorely needed.

And of course there are international markets. China buys more cars than the US, these days.

The rear visibility in my car isn't great. Saw the homepage and thought, "Sold!" within about 10 seconds. Clicked "Pre-Order" to be disappointed by the price point. Was expecting something in the $249 or $299 price range.

$500 ($650 CAD) is way too high for me. Disappointing.

Problem 4, OBD port contention, cost them three pre-sales. I have Automatic in the OBD port on the three vehicles. All between 10 - 20 years old, but each with only 10k - 30k miles, so great candidates for this otherwise.

Interesting product, but I just don't see how the inconvenience of opening up your phone, the concerns about using the ODB port, and the price point are going to make this a starter. You can get an easy to install backup camera + screen for half that, and no fumbling with a phone needed. If you already have a screen in your stereo, you can get a camera for less than $100.

We designed our own magnetic phone mount, which comes with the product. Once you start mounting your phone in your car (especially with our mount, which is amazing), you won't want a separate screen for your camera. :)

The advantages of mounting your smartphone, with the cutting edge hardware and active software ecosystem that come along with it, are truly huge. When I rent a car now I am incredibly frustrated without the mount. Luckily ours has a magnetic pluggable backend, so I can pull it off my adhesive mount and attach the vent clip for use in other cars.

It's such an amazing feeling to put your blood and sweat into a product for months and finally be able to share it with the world. It's great to take our startup out of stealth mode today!

I couldn't imagine a better group of people to do it with, either.

How long has your team been working on this project? It seems like it is 2-3 years too late to market.

> How long has your team been working on this project? It seems like it is 2-3 years too late to market.

That reads like a dismissive swipe. Please guard against that here, especially when responding to new work. It may be the default human tendency, but it's destructive of thoughtful conversation. Not all new work is good, but most things that do turn out to be good start small, and all invite a litany of obvious objections while embryonic.

A better way to bring this up would be to provide more detail about your comment's context (example: products X, Y, Z came out 2 years ago) and then expressing your point as a sincere question (example: how is your product different from X, Y, Z and isn't there a risk that the market is already mature).

This is crazy expensive for what you get. Most newer cars have this feature already and unless you have trouble turning your head I don't think it is worth $500 adding to a low-end new or used car.

All model 2018 cars are mandated to have them in the US, so there will be even less of a market for this with new cars.

Really eh? That's something I couldn't of imagined. Makes sense but still surprised. Wonder if Canada will follow suit if we haven't already.

First impressions:

1. $499 is a lot. A lot of people who would be willing to pay that probably already have backup cameras built into their cars.

2. I'd rather have a fixed screen that's 100% always there and ready. Sometimes I just want to hop in my car and not have to worry about pulling my phone out. The magnetic mount looks nice though.

3. ODB port may already be consumed by another gadget (e.x. Automatic). Could you use a low-power accelerometer/gyro to detect backups instead?

So, this is really cool, but I park underground both at work and home. I have doubts morning and evening sun is enough to charge this.

Also, what if I have something else already in the ODB port? It looks like I have to get a Y splitter or something, but having dangling cords under the steering wheel doesn't seem like a good idea.

Thanks!

Based on our design and testing, the solar should keep the vast majority of users charged up (it has for me!). As a backup we do support USB charging as well.

USB charging for the backup camera? How?

OP dun goofed. This is redundant for cars but would be marketable on pretty much everything bigger than a car. IMO you should target RVs, fleet truck/vans and people towing trailers with this.

As others have mentioned, too expensive and too late for cars.

Pickups and vans have longer service lives and IIRC some are exempt from the camera thing. People who DD small cars tend to suck at backing big stuff (like company trucks).

Using it as a rear dashcam could help reduce liability (e.g. "my driver didn't back into your fence and I have video to prove it"

Putting this on a trailer would make it easier to back into tight spaces with precision.

Since it's wireless and a self contained unit it could be marketed for use on boat trailers as well

A fleet that deploys these could easily swap them from vehicle to vehicle with near zero cost.

RVs suck to back, camera makes that less so. There's also a lot of older RVs out there since they depreciate so much they tend to get passed through lots of owners and stick around a long time. A $500 camera can be swapped from RV to RV and is an easy upsell when someone buys a used RV that they're likely planning on sinking some $ into

You also can't see behind you very well with an RV. If you're towing a trailer with ATVs, a small boat or something you can't see if it's back there unless you get out and check.

The list goes on...

Great idea. Why use an OBD port? I suspect this will compete with other OBD-dependent solutions in the future.

Seconded, I use automatic which means to use this I have to pick one or the other.

It needs to know when the car is in reverse.

Consuming the ODB port for autolaunching an app seems like a really pointless addition. It weirds me out that I'm installing an always-on (when driving) computer in my car when it provides no major benefit other than knowing when my car is in reverse -- and since I've got to set up my phone anyways, opening an app is not much more work to save from having an entire separate dongle needed.

I assume it runs in low power mode most of the time, and is woken up by an RF signal from the dongle. It's _possible_ you could accomplish that via BLE from the phone, but maybe not.

Obviously the camera can't be on all the time, as I'm sure they're cutting the power budget pretty close as it is, given the size of the solar panel.

The OBD adapter does serve a very important role in the system in that it has a power source and can wake the camera frame when necessary (before you ever launch the app!). All of our vision algorithms also run on the OBD adapter, which is a key aspect of the power model.

Both those things (remote wake and 'vision algorithms') are things that could likely work on the phone, no?

I think the remote wake is based on when the car is put into reverse, which would be challenging to tell from the phone. I imagine that only running the camera when the car is in reverse is a key part of keeping power consumption down in the frame.

What other data will it collect from the port and forward via the link to the phone and futher upstream through the app?

I guess it can be said that the device needs to know when the car is in reverse gear. Personally I hate these rear view cameras that decide for you when you need them and have no way to turned on manually.

I would much prefer more control and less info leakage potential.

I also wonder how frequently would one have to carefully clean the camera lenses and solar panels for it to work, them being situated where they are. What's up with all those devices being designed to operate only on dry sunny days?

Aside from power, we do use the OBD port to detect things like reverse and speed (to stop the video automatically when you hit 10mph).

In general we want to integrate our products into the car and the driving experience as much as possible.

That choice cost you three pre-sales. I have Automatic using the port, as do many people I know with cash to spend on expensive car gadgets and older cars to gadgetize.

I think you understand why Automatic, useful over 10 mph, needs to be more integrated into the driving experience than you do.

At that price point I'd be worried it's an easily accessible target for theft. Is there some way to pair it with your phone or car adapter such that it's useless without those?

The camera frame is indeed paired with the car adapter at the factory, which is a theft deterrent. They will not function without each other.

The RearVision also comes with a security tool that must be used to attach and remove the camera frame.

$499!?!?!

For $130 I can buy two really good quality 1080p dashcams and two 16GB microSDHC cards (I know, not the intended function of this...) and mount one facing forward and one to the rear.

A "good quality" dashcam for $65? Which one?

You still have to run wires to power your dashcam and display video where the driver can see it -- that's what $500 buys, the need to not have to add wires to your car.

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Box-G1W-C-Capacitor-Dashboard/d...

search youtube for "G1W-C" for sample videos.

Why does it matter that it's solar powered if there's already a ready source of electricity (i.e. your car battery)? Seems like it's only solar powered to be facilitate being an after market add-on you can click onto the car. Otherwise it'd require wiring.

Didn't you just answer your own question? Many people don't want to have to run wires and tap into their car's electrical system, screwing this license plate frame on and plugging in the OBD dongle means anyone can install it in a few minutes.

I'm more curious how that built in LiOn battery would stay charged while parked outside for a full work day on a super cold day in winter, when decent sunlight is scarce. Has it been tested in a place where temperatures can dip to -20C / -40C with wind chill?

The camera stays in low power mode (polling with BLE?) until woken up by the OBD controller to tell it that the car is in reverse. It doesn't need much power to stay charged.

I don't think it's a question of energy use, it's a question of whether the battery can hold a charge under those conditions.

Very cool! I'm interested in your thoughts about car manufacturers including them on cars now. In Canada, all new car models must have a backup camera, for example. (Kinda funny how you feature brand new Porsches and Audis in your product demos; both these cars have backup cameras!)

I still think there's a market for the product for older/used/classic vehicles, but wondering what your perspective is on this.

http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/06/a-team-of-ex-apple-engin... There's a long design cycle, and it only appears in some makes and models; it can take 10 to 20 years to appear across the production line. The other challenge is the technology in new cars is designed to be stagnant, so it stays the same throughout the lifetime of the car, which is over 17 years now.

Excellent question. It takes decades for new features to fan out to the majority of new cars. After that it then takes decades more for those features to reach saturation of all cars on the road, because only 7% of the car population turns over each year.

The bottom line is it's generally 40 years from the point when features like seat belts, air bags, traction control, and backup cameras are first introduced and when they reach 95% saturation.

Throughout this adoption process, demand for these features among those whose cars don't have them increases significantly!

Thanks for the very informative reply!

Excellent answer. Feature propagation & saturation is also a reason to offer/develop a version that doesn't require an OBD port.

Your customer base consists almost exclusively of those who are both willing to spend $499 on an accessory and who don't already have a reverse cam. Many potential customers won't have an OBD port in their car because OBD-I wasn't around until the '90s. Muscle car enthusiasts and parents (happy to spend $499 to prevent an accident) passing down an older car come to mind.

It would be great to see a second generation version that works without OBD.

I am curious how much blacking out the solar cells reduces the incoming power.

It certainly looks cooler that way, though.

The solar window is actually transparent. Our PD team is second to none! They were able to make the whole solar assembly look uniformly black while not sacrificing solar efficiency.

How are the data paths between camera and OBD module and the module and the phone app secured?

We are using industry standard encryption algorithms for all of our wireless traffic. We are also consulting with external security experts, in addition to the expertise we have in-house.

All of our over-the-air firmware updates are cryptographically signed.

Any chance there will be a European license plate frame size available? Seems like a small change to reach a wider market. Possibly more relevant as well, have you ever tried parking in one of the old cities in the continent? :)

We are initially shipping only in the US, but hopefully total world domination will follow eventually. :)

I might pay for something like this if it was:

1. designed for the front license plate

2. recorded the last n minutes of driving to memory

3. could trigger a copy of the last n minutes to a SD memory card or to my phone.

The dashcam market is well developed, with the only real issue being you have to run a USB cable in your car to power it. I don't think this would add enough value over the ones you stick to your windshield.

For instance, I have this one; it's very small and not likely to get stolen:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UUS52YG?psc=1

Hasn't gotten me anything yet but I hope to get Youtube karma someday.

On the other hand, this product does add value, it just happens to be evil:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11934455

A backup camera would be great, since my car doesn't have one and there are kids living next door, but my OBD port is already in use by another tech gimmick…

Looks like a really cool project. Is there a non-solar charging method, just in case? Have you done much testing in less than ideal solar locations?

There is! The solar charging should be enough for most everybody. We have done testing in a variety of locations. As a backup, though, it can be charged over USB.

Ahh, why not 12V?

Question: what's the user experience like every time you get in the car? Do you need to launch the app? I imagine that's what the OBD portion is for, but I didn't think you could automatically launch apps from iOS. Does the Android app offer a different experience?

We've really tried to make this experience as smooth as possible. The product comes with a superb magnetic dash mount for your phone. Frequently our app will show up on your lock screen in iOS, so you can just slide up to launch into the video view.

We will of course leverage whatever tools both platforms provide to make the launching experience as seamless as it can be! We can also take cues from accelerometers, the OBD port, and other sensors, as you mention.

Aha! The OBD port connection isn't even necessary since it's a trip to the phone UI anyway.

So why OBD?

I'm guessing the "cues" mentioned are triggering the app to show up on the lock screen. Without it you'd be forced to sift through your apps every time you back up. I don't think there's any other way to know for sure you're in a car and will be backing up soon. Ideally you'd want your backup camera on before the accelerometer knows you're backing up.

Have you considered hooking this up to CarPlay so it actually shows up in my built-in car screen?

nevere EVER take away a users ability to scroll.

Agree. The site is kind of hard to scroll. The PgDown key doesn't work at the second page. Pictures after full screen pictures with no delimitation is a real turn off.

It's even worse with this site than most like it, since it randomly switches between "scroll slightly to trigger a transition animation" and "scroll normally to go down the page", and you can never predict which it's going to be until you try and wait a few seconds for something to happen.

So infuriating, see [0]

[0] http://blog.arronhunt.com/post/66973746030/stop-scrolljackin...

hahaha, funnily enough these guys are all ex-apple and I immeadiately assumed they were going for the Apple page feel. I didn't like the apple mac redesign but it is a lot more intuitive than this page, as after most of the animation you are dropped back into a normal page scroll and it is reasonably intuitive when you are scrolling vs. animating. I found it annoying but at least I could grep what was happeneing

Does anyone know what's the battery life when is not being charged?

With literally zero solar charging and under normal usage, the battery should last over a month. Most people get at least some solar charging, though! If nothing else, at least while they are driving, parked at the grocery store, etc.

ugging into the odb port is dubious. I will surelly never get close to this device. a usb or power socket version would look much more professional.

They're also using information from OBD for car power state, backup state, and speed (to turn the camera off when you're going 10MPH or more). For the way they decided to implement it, I think they've got a slick device. How they secure the data streams and communication with the dongle would be my big questions.

Would love to see what the app experience is like outside of the camera view (push notifications to launch, settings, etc.)

And I'd love to show it to you! :)

The video screen is definitely the main focus of the app, for obvious reasons. When the video stops, we also show an app launcher screen that's optimized for use in the car (large touch targets :) ), which you can configure to include a few of your favorite music or nav apps.

Are there any anti-theft features for this? Can someone just take the rearvision off my license plate and go home with it?

The RearVision comes with a security tool that is used to attach and remove the camera frame. The camera frame and the OBD adapter are also paired at the factory and will not function in isolation.

Thanks for the info...tell Tyler M I said hi!

Jesus fuck stop fucking with my scrolling.

Please fix your broken website, and fire your "designer".

What cars are you supporting at the moment, and what other cars on your road map?

We do require an OBD port, which is present on all cars 1996 and newer.

Other than that, it should work on basically all cars, assuming you don't have e.g. an existing backup camera that mechanically blocks the installation.

Should a fender bender occur, I'd imagine insurance wouldn't cover getting this replaced.

A native backup camera is seemingly more cost-effective.

That's very expensive

$400!! No thanks

$400! No thanks

This looks great, and we particularly like that you showed up to tell the story of what you've been working on. I hope a good discussion will ensure. But we changed "Show HN" to "Tell HN" in the title, since the web page says "preorder" and Show HN is supposed to be for when your thing is actually available. I hope you'll come back and do a Show HN when you reach that stage.

There's nothing wrong with the post otherwise, since this is clearly a real project and I suspect the community would be interested in learning about it.

Thanks dang! Totally understandable and I am happy to post again when we start shipping them out.

This page has by far the worst scrolling interaction I've ever experienced.

First up : no scroll bar so there is literally no visual cue that I need to scroll. Scrolling "activates" the next portion of content.

Somewhere around the middle part : I can scroll and see the scrollbar, but WAIT! Another portion of the page starts hiding the scroll and hijacking the scrolling to show something. Uggggh again?

Scroll some more : Scroll bar appears once more! I am free to scroll to the bottom of the page. Nothing makes me hate a webpage more than some shenanigans like this that breaks what a webpage should be.

I agree. If I remember suddenly that there is information at the top or bottom of the page that I want to access now I can't just click on the scrollbar to redirect me, but I have to wait an extra good five to ten seconds just to get back to it.

Wasn't there an article on HN recently that said something along the lines of "just because Apple does it doesn't mean you should"?

I can only see top menu, page is blank. I have malware filters.

Which filters? I have ghostery, ublock origin, and a corporate firewall, all of which usually cause me some trouble, but I didn't have any issues with this site.

holy cow, every time there's a Show HN, there's always someone who shits on the web-page "hijacking" the scrolling. It's annoying commentary because you're looking at it through a very narrow lens that 99% of the people don't care about. For non-technical people, it's more intuitive having the screen-focused on the main content.

Here's what dang said, over a year ago, agreeing with you.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9238739

It's a good point.

> every time there's a Show HN, there's always someone who shits on the web-page "hijacking" the scrolling.

Only when the Show HN is of a website that hijacks scrolling.

When it doesn't, surprisingly, there are neither complaints about hijacking scrolling nor complaints that would be resolved by hijacking scrolling.

There may be a message in that.

> It's annoying commentary because you're looking at it through a very narrow lens that 99% of the people don't care about.

IME, non-technical people are thrown even harder by violations of basic platform UI conventions like hijacking scrolling or having no indication that scrolling is necessary.

> very narrow lens that 99% of the people don't care about

If I thought that was a really nice product and sent the link to my dad (he likes gadgets and cars, after all), he'd have no clue what to do after landing on the page. He usually drags the scroll bar to navigate a webpage. Good job on alienating a huge portion of your potential users.

This one is way worse than most because it's so inconsistent.

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