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Comment by thirdsun | Hacker News Reader

My thoughts as well - it's surprising (well, maybe not) to see how effective these populist movements are these days whether it's France (Front National), Germany (AfD), Britain (UKIP), Czech, Poland, etc. To me it seems that Switzerland is the only country where its population can be trusted with plebiscitary measures, referendums and other forms of rather direct democracy.

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This is because in Switzerland there have always been referendums. That really makes a difference on how people see their laws and regulations. In Switzerland, people say 'We have decided to have law X or regulation Y'. In Germany people say 'They have decided', meaning the government.

This growing distance between the people and the government is a fertile breeding ground for populists. And the distance is the biggest between the people and the government of the EU.

But this doesn't prevent ridiculous referendums, like the one about immigration. It shifts the responsibility to the people, true but who cares about who does what? We must care about the results - the society we live in.

It's all about media. I will always blame the media for being extremely biased in whatever they do. I cannot mention today one objective and inquiring media. They ALL report what people already know or what they want to know. Democracy without objective media is oligarchy.

I'm not sure which 'ridiculous' referendum you mean. There have been two referendums in Switzerland during the recent years about evicting immigrants who have been convicted for heavy crimes. The first one was approved, the second more harsh one was rejected by the voters.

But why call a referendum ridiculous? I guess it is primarily because you don't agree with the proposal that the referendum is about. And because you don't agree with the proposal, you feel that there should not even be a referendum about it? That means that you think your opinion is more valuable than a possible majority of the voters. Isn't that an egocentric point of view?

Exactly the one about expulsion of foreigner who are criminals.

According to Wikipedia: "Foreigners who commit a crime would be automatically expelled from the country, regardless of the severity of the crime." [0]

I don't know the laws in Switzerland, but I can tell you that in Germany if they catch you without the train ticket for three times, you can potentially go to jail. In Switzerland, if such a law existed (I don't know), such a person would be expelled. This is ridiculous to me, because in a life span anything can happen. If you commit rape, homicide, break-ins, I can understand. It's the "regardless" that makes me wonder how welcome foreigners are. Although "ridiculous" might be the wrong term, I think that such a referendum should not even exist. Why was it even thought about? Why the "regardless"? What's wrong with us humans? Foreigners come, make your country richer - especially foreigners, PHD, master students, and highly skilled employees - and that's how you pay them back? Treating them like if they were worse than animals? "If you fuck up, go away".

I don't doubt the effectiveness of referendums, although I come from a country in which they hardly have an impact. I really appreciate Switzerland's method, as it keeps its citizens closer and more interested to politics. However, I am still of the idea that news can corrupt democracy pretty much everywhere, no matter how it's implemented - as long as citizens are the main responsible for the elected people or laws.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_referendums,_2016

So you are referring to the second referendum about expelling immigrants, the one that was rejected.

I don't see what is so negative about this event. People got a chance to vote, and voted with quite a convincing majority (58%) against the proposal. Isn't that good? It shows that the majority of people, despite all populism and superficial media coverage, are still making the most human decision.

I didn't say referendums are useless/worthless. I just wanted to point out that your argumentation

> This is because in Switzerland there have always been referendums. That really makes a difference on how people see their laws and regulations.

seems not to take into account that media are highly biased, and these do have an impact on people. Referendums are not the solution, but just a different way to express your (?) own opinion. When your opinions are shaped by media (because they inevitably are), then you see, it's not the implementation (referendum/yes/no) the problem/solution, but how people perceive reality.

In a country where media work, you wouldn't have had such a referendum, not because of different opinions, but because people wouldn't feel threatened by foreigners (due to media) - or possibly, you would have a fairer request: send away only the ones who commit high crimes. I am sure that it would have been successful with at least 70% of "yes".

58% of people means 6/10 - this might translate to: 4 people don't like immigrants/don't feel safe due to foreigners.

It's not that surprising. Recent developments (like globalisation) have been really bad for the working class, and a growing level in inequality and rising housing prices and what not means that populist movements and their 'simple' answers to complex problems are becoming more attractive.

And the media too. By attacking people for their views, they basically gave these populist movements ammunition and caused their supporters (and much of the public) to see a divide between an elite and the working man.

Things will probably get far worse in the future because of all this...

Worse for who? I don't necessarily agree with far right arguments, but as far as I'm concerned nothing indicates that rejecting globalisation will leave us in a worst future.

Globalisation has destroyed the planet along with the capitalism and values it touts as the future. All lies and deceit that contributed to the ever enrichment of the elite while we're left here saying again and again that the working man is stupid for reacting to it.

As said, I don't agree with the rhetoric of the far right, but one thing I have been entirely certain for many years, left or right, it doesn't matter, neither hold the future for us.

Not worse in the 'people are economically worse off' sense. Worse in the 'I worry that someday a psychotic lunatic will be voted in as prime minister/president/whatever' and lead to another massive war sense.

I worry the politician voted in as a protest against elites and globalisation is going to be someone merely using that as a cover for a far worse ideology.

And yet Switzerland is much less immigration friendly than all the countries you've mentioned.

I didn't mean specific issues like immigration, but the general ability of the people to understand and comprehend complex issues and problems and vote accordingly - even if I disagree. Meanwhile it seems everywhere else whoever shouts the loudest, promises the most fantastic things or tells the most fear mongering tales gets ahead.

Just my impression of course.

And yet switzerland has one of the highest percentages of immigrants. Switzerland has a foreigners share of ~24%. Except Luxembourg every other EU nation has less immigrants than switzerland. As an example, Great Britain has only ~8%.

The percentage of immigrants living in a country is a result of a long term process. I believe that what we are discussing right now is the 'refugee' crisis.

Thats not true. It just does not mix emotions with politics so much and so the decisions made sometimes sound really harsh, when in reality they often aren't.

Disclaimer: I am a EU foreigner in Switzerland.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Switzerland is unfriendly. I'm saying that it's less friendly than the countries mentioned in the comment. That's because I believe they are too friendly.

Last time I was in Zurich, this is the first thing I've seen at the railway station [1]. This is a very reasonable thing to do for Swiss people and something very different to what is happening in EU during the "refugee" crisis. On the other hand, in the EU it would be considered anti-immigrant or even racist (especially by media).

[1] http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/lg/...

Why did you only list right wing populist movements? Plenty of extreme left wing movements share the burden for being in this mess we are right now here in EU.

Fair enough. However those right wing movements often seem to be the ones that gain significant traction.

> To me it seems that Switzerland is the only country where its population can be trusted with plebiscitary measures, referendums and other forms of rather direct democracy.

Is it? At one point they blocked one type of a building from being built.

Not to mention this clusterfuck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_immigration_referendum,_...

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