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Comment by throwaway049 | Hacker News Reader

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0]

There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so.

[0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

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The whole citizenship process costs around £1.5k, assuming you pass all hurdles at the first attempt, so for many is not a decision you can take lightly; prices increased 10x in the last decade explicitly to keep us Euro-rabble out. EU residents can still vote at local levels so we do get a say in matters directly relevant. I personally thought I'd leave national politics to the "indigenous" mostly as a sign of respect for history and traditions I may not be a part of and might not fully comprehend. That was probably a mistake.

Last year I started citizenship proceedings for me and my wife, aggrieved by the darkening mood, but tbh at this point I think I'll save the money for a visa elsewhere. It's clear I'm not welcome anymore, despite paying more taxes and using less services than most beleavers; and it's clear the country as a whole wants to go back to the bad old days of Thatcher, with all its urban decay, racism, violence and permanent Tory majorities. I think my children might get a better chance elsewhere.

"despite paying more taxes and using less services than most beleavers" This line of argument leads to a Poll Tax or other arrangement that ties voting rights to personal wealth.

Please don't look for strawmen were none were intended. I just pointed out how contributing to the country more than most people is clearly not enough to be welcomed, these days.

>> I personally thought I'd leave national politics to the "indigenous" mostly as a sign of respect for history and traditions I may not be a part of and might not fully comprehend. That was probably a mistake.

I made the exact same mistake, for the exact same reasons.

Commonwealth and Irish citizens resident in UK could vote, whereas resident EU citizens could not.

A democracy is about people whose lives will be significantly affected by a decision having a right to take part in the decision-making.

Why this logic was applied to resident Commonwealth and Irish citizens differently from residents from EU?

Irish people can vote in UK elections because of the Good Friday agreement - basically ensured that Republicans originally from Northern Ireland (and therefore had British citizenship) who resided in the Republic of Ireland and Loyalists from the Republic of Ireland who lived in the UK (I don't know how many of these there are) could vote in what they believed was their own country. It's a specific agreement that helped stop The Troubles.

Regarding Commonwealth citizens - I'm not sure of the logic, but it has something to do with Britain occupying them... At any rate, these are legal loopholes and not the standard state of affairs.

> Regarding Commonwealth citizens - I'm not sure of the logic, but it has something to do with Britain occupying them... At any rate, these are legal loopholes and not the standard state of affairs.

I presume it's related to their historic status as British Subjects (which some of them will still hold, though it's been impossible to gain status as such since the 1980s), which would have granted them the right to vote in Westminster elections and referendums.

"There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so."

It costs £1588 [0], which is a lot of money to spend on something which gives no benefits (to an EU citizen) other than being able to vote in general elections (and referenda).

[0] Comprising:

£1236 - citizenship

£72 - passport

£70 - Saturday appointment to check documents (optional)

£10 - passport check

£150 - English test

£50 - life in the UK test

That's because the whole point of the EU is for people to be European citizens. The intention of the project is that becoming a citizen doesn't matter, as you're a citizen of Europe and you have all the rights that bestows on you. Some still could, but it seems Boris is still desperate for the EU to basically function exactly as before, so who knows if they even need to worry?

>> [EU citizens] have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so.

Woa. Hang on a minute. Why do I have to become a UK citizen in order to be able to partake in the decisions that directly affect my life?

I've lived here for over a decade now. I studied here, I work here, I pay taxes, I pay contributions to the NHS. Why does it make any difference whether I'm a UK citizen or not?

In fact, the only difference between myself with British citizenship and myself without, is ... whether I have the British citizenship or not.

And yet that difference determines whether I can vote or not. How does that make any sense? It's exactly as reasonable as granting the right to vote to only men, or only Christians, or something completely unacceptable like that.

I live in this country that wants to call itself democratic. Like, it just made a point of how it loves democracy so much it's willing to jump off a cliff singing God Save the Queen because it didn't think it had enough democracy.

So how is it all so democratic that a few million active, productive people living here don't get to have a say in their own affairs?

I can't recall ever hearing of a campaign for residents, as distinct from citizens, to have the vote in parliamentary elections. You were and still are free to become a citizen or even decline to become one and campaign for voting rights for permanent residents. Political change doesn't normally come from just asking nicely. It took a fight to win the vote for working class men and another fight, not just a war of words but physical violence, to get the franchise extended to women. I'm not saying you should start stockpiling weapons but you could at least do some campaigning.

Disclaimer: I'm not a British citizen, just an expat of another country.

The difference between a citizen and a resident is that a citizen has made a long term commitment to the country. A citizen has decided that they want to be a part of the country, with all of the privileges and responsibilities that entails.

Take a spectrum of immigration statii:

- Temporary resident working on a visa or similar.

- Long term resident working with indefinite leave to stay or permanent residence.

- Citizen

Now imagine what would happen if they can vote:

- Temporary resident: Doesn't necessarily care about long term effects of their vote on the country. Could vote for short term changes that benefit them then leave. Isn't integrated with the culture and could cause discontent.

- Long term resident: Hasn't committed to a long term relationship with the country so is essentially the same as a temporary resident. Has the option to become a citizen __and has chosen not to__.

Why shouldn't you agree to commit to the country long term if you want the privilege of affecting it long term?

Interesting to note that the Scottish Indepndence referendum was open to non-Scots living in the country, and it tipped the balance below 50%, but if set up in the same way as the EU vote, they'd have met have had a majority.

> and it tipped the balance below 50%

I'd need a citation for that being the reason; anecdotal I know, but I have several non-Scottish/British pals who all voted Yes for independence.

It's generally accepted that the reason that Yes lost was that we had the full might of the British state propaganda machine putting the fear of god into people, i.e. British Government, BBC and practically every newspaper (the exception being the Sunday Herald). It was called "Project Fear" [0, 1]

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear_(British_politics...

1: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/178590051X

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-refe...

53% Yes for Scots-born,

72% No for rest-of-UK born,

57% No for non-UK

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