When Music Is Violence | Hacker News Reader

When Music Is Violence

newyorker.com

44 pointspmcpinto62 comments

On a tangential note, my neighbor plays the same music daily outside for 1.5 hours and it actually infuriates me (musical torture). I end up needing to turn on my AC and some ambient noise videos to block it out.

Have tried the civil route, but it's not working and it's not illegal to be a rude neighbor. Anyone have any insights on how best to handle this, other than moving out?

it's not illegal to be a rude neighbor

In many jurisdictions it most certainly is illegal to be a rude neighbor. I don't know where you live, but in the U. S. having the cops show up to a loud party is almost a rite of passage. Where I in your situation here in Redmond, WA, I'd have one last civil conversation my neighbor, ending with "I'm hope we can work this out, as I'd hate to call the cops." And when that didn't work, call the cops.

Wait a minute, you don't live in Redmond, and this isn't that guy down by the Power Line Trail with the horrendous taste in adult easy listening, is it? If so, my sympathies as the dog and I can barely stand to run past there in the evenings, let alone live next door.

As someone who used to be a younger person that played loud music in bands, thanks for being the civil-conversation-first type. Participating in music can be a powerfully positive force in a kid's life, and often kids don't have a consciousness of their surroundings at the front of their mind.

(Unless it's 1 in the morning which is a terrible time for a backyard show.)

As someone who used to be a younger person that played loud music in bands, thanks for being the civil-conversation-first type.

Having been that younger person at one point in my life, I've never been a "call the cops first" kind of person. As you point out, kids often don't even think that they might be bothering someone. Kids'll be kids, eh?

Once you hit about 30 or so, though, it's time to cut that shit out. I'll still have a civil conversation first, but you only get the one.

Adult easy listening is a pretty apt description for it, but LA here. I guess there's a That Neighbor Guy everywhere.

This is my experience in startup offices as well - a small clique of people (or one person) controlling "office music", which everyone is forced to listen to. It's so hard for me to get work done. I really don't get why companies do this, it's basically throwing away productivity ($$$) for an image of "team-ness".

I would recommend noise-cancelling headphones - a nice pair that are comfortable and won't hurt your ears for extended use.

My office uses internet radio at minimal noise levels just so the environment doesn't feel eerily quiet or like a crypt. But half the folks wear headphones (I am one of them - I can barely hear the radio). Books on "tape", music, podcasts, silence or white noise - whatever floats your boat. They are easy enough to remove if you need to chat with someone.

Noise cancelling only really works on ambient noise, so unless your coworkers are queuing up "Music for Airports", it won't really help. It also can't create silence, and will still damage your hearing over time. The best solution is for the people that want noise to just use headphones!

Headphones with good passive attenuation will block any kind of noise. They are essentially industrial ear defenders that also happen to be excellent headphones. Headphones with Bose-style active noise cancellation are an ineffective gimmick.

Headphones of this type typically provide around 30dB of attenuation, enough to reduce loud music to a gentle murmur. I highly recommend them to anyone who works in an open-plan office.

http://europe.beyerdynamic.com/shop/dt-770-m.html

http://en-uk.sennheiser.com/hd-280-pro

http://www.extremeheadphones.com/passive-noise-isolation-hea...

>Headphones with Bose-style active noise cancellation are an ineffective gimmick.

They are actually very effective, both for airplane style noise, but also for street noise, people talking in an office, and music playing.

Haven't tried Bose themselves, but active noise cancellation on Parrot Zik's works well, and all reviews say Bose's is even better.

Plus, if you also play your own music on top, you can't really hear anything -- to the point of it being dangerous if you're walking in the street, crossing roads, etc.

Headphones with Bose-style active noise cancellation are an ineffective gimmick.

Not if you fly a lot (or even a reasonable amount). I don't have Bose ones, but active cancelling works amazingly well for that constant hum on airplanes.

I met a lady in a coffee shop once who wore earplugs and headphones. She wore the earplugs so she could play the headphones really loud without damaging her hearing, while blocking out all the ambient coffee shop noise.

"[Noise canelling will] damage your hearing over time"

Do you have a good source on that? I'm thinking about getting some noise-cancelling headphones for office use.

There's no good source on that, as it's wrong. There's absolutely no damage from noise cancelling, and in fact they're healthier than regular headphones (because you don't need to raise the volume to drawn out external noises).

Any source on that?

>Unlike cell phones, noise-cancelling headphones do not emit low level radiation and do not pose any of the potential hazards that could stem from frequent use of a cell phone held next to the ear.

>Actually, noise-cancelling headphones can be beneficial, since both loud noises and constant low-level noise can lead to health problems. Acute loud noises can damage hearing, interfere with sleep, raise blood pressure and stress levels and cause headaches. As for low-level noise, a study published in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America in March, 2001, found that Austrian children who live in neighborhoods with constant low-level noise (mostly from automobile and train traffic) had higher levels of the stress hormone cortisol than youngsters who lived in quieter neighborhoods. And a study published in the February, 2006, issue of the European Heart Journal found that heart attack risk was higher among people exposed to chronic noise. I actually recommend noise-canceling headphones to help avert the health problems noise exposure can present.

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400774/Are-Noise-Cancelling-H...

And tons of others -- besides the basic lack of any mechanism by which noise cancelling cans could be harmful for the ears compared to regular ones. The burden on proof is on the "damage" side.

Not noise cancelling specifically, just wearing headphones in general for 40 hours a week.

>Noise cancelling only really works on ambient noise, so unless your coworkers are queuing up "Music for Airports", it won't really help.

You'd be surprised -- plus that is flatly wrong.

I have a pair of noise cancelling cans (Parrot Zik 2) and they can totally eliminate street musicians coming aboard on your subway train and playing and singing next to you in full blast (we get that a lot in my country) -- along with all other train talk and noises. Same for office music and other things -- it's not just for ambient noise by any means.

And the Zik are not even considered the best cans out there in their noise cancelling department.

> will still damage your hearing over time

I quick google search seems to suggest otherwise.

Any recommendations for noise cancelling headphones, preferably with Bluetooth? The apple earbuds aren't cutting it at work for me.

I am happy with Bose QuietComfort 20 in-ear headphones (or model 20i for Apple devices). They cost $300, and are not bluetooth. Also need to recharge their battery every 8-10 hours, but you can use them while charging. They charge from an usb jack. I guess you could buy a wireless (wireless in the sense that it runs on battery) bluetooth receiver separately.

My office has a Sonos. The rule is: if you don't like what's playing, you can change it or turn it off. And everyone has access to the app, and it's anonymous who is taking what actions. We've never had "battles" over the sonos.

Except on December 23rd when there were 3 people in the office and I really wanted to play the album "Christmas Island" by Jimmy Buffett and my QA guy wanted to play "The Gift of Rock" by Smash Mouth. We might have not fully represented the holiday spirit that day.

We have this at my office as well. I do my best to humour the guy, and he often plays good music, but occasionally plays rap, which immediately kills my concentration.

I've spoken with my direct manager and my team about it, and the compromise is that whenever he's playing music I don't like, I simply put on headphones and go about my day. Everyone is totally cool with this arrangement, even the music man, who tries his best to be inclusive and will often ask everyone else (myself included) for musical requests.

> it's not illegal to be a rude neighbor

That depends on how loud the music is, and other things besides. You might want to check with your city to see if you can file a noise complaint.

I'd also add that is a two way street. If it is legal to do such things where you live, might I recommend the musical stylings of GWAR and the Sony MDRZX110NC noise canceling headphones.

I was going to suggest finding the exact same music as the neighbor and playing it out of sync.

Or invert it :)

What happens when you stick a microphone + noise-cancelling DSP to some powerful speakers (positioned to act as a point-source) instead of into headphones, anyway?

I'm guessing there'd a node where everything sounds perfectly quiet... and then everywhere else, it would just sound like two overlapping copies of the sound with a lot of weird dropped-out frequencies (which themselves would change over time.)

Why not play something that's actually bad-

SONG FOR THE STUPID RAVER SHITHEAD WHO LIVES UNDERNEATH ME AND ALWAYS PLAYS HIS SHITTY...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0C3fFnmLvo

I actually enjoyed the song. The article mentions training the military to withstand torture by listening to Throbbing Gristle and Diamanda Galas which happen to be 2 of my favorites to code to so I guess I have a high sonic threshold for torture.

That's actually not that bad. I can actually listen to it. Maybe some "To Live and Shave In L.A" will do the trick? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPtQI-KMvOc

Wow, I was not aware that any of Taco the Wonder Dog's stuff was still floating around on the internet. Is that channel related?

I'm glad archive.org saved some of taco's hot fire. Here's my favorite worst

http://web.archive.org/web/20040807015518/http://www.jamhand...

Well the name does stand for God What an Awful Racket so I thought it fitting. Plus its what Dave Brockie would of wanted.

One could also use a parabolic dish or beamforming array to more precisely direct the "counter-attack".

(Not that that's a constructive way to deal with the problem. Just a techincally interesting one.)

I wonder where that would stand legally? If you did something that specifically directed it to the neighbor while minimizing it elsewhere it would be really hard to make a colorable claim that you were actually playing the music for your own enjoyment and that it is loud at your neighbor's is just a side effect.

I'd be worried that this would greatly increase the risk that your actions could be found to be some kind of harassment.

Position it so you sit right at the edge of the beam. Say you were controlling volume by leaning into/out of the beam. Plausible deniability.

>beamforming array to more precisely direct the "counter-attack".

you can just use it to "noise-cancel" in your apartment without "attack" component. After all they start to use active cancellation to decrease turbo-props noise for the passengers.

The music is, on a decibel level, actually not that loud. The issue is that it permeates into my apartment (especially the vocals) and I can't block it out.

I remember an HN discussion about how sad it is that most apartments don't have noise dampening (esp. since renters can't do much to dampen without voiding their rental agreements).

Chroma Doze (source also on github).

Tell yourself it will be over soon.

If it's same time each day, create a routine to be out (cafe, library browse, exercise) - he can help you reach your goals!

I have had success in talking to the person, but only by caring about them, as a person, first.

You can move, but noise seem to follow me around - construction noise, air conditioning hum, people running/jumping upstairs - to a greater or lesser extent.

Lower density housing (eg rural or wilderness) helps but talk and music in a noisy cafe doesn't bother me, but furtive conversation in a quiet library does...

It's funny, when I'm enthralled by projects and life, I don't notice these annoyances... I think it can be a sign that I've lost touch with myself or am blocked in some way.

I like this approach the most. Turn a negative into an even higher value positive. Positive non-harmful revenge!

To a small degree, I tried talking and caring about the person which is how we found the minimum volume he could lower his music to. It's not low enough though, and I'm not sure if he'd be willing to use earphones. The issue remains, and I'm making progress resolving things from my end, including mental things like trying to accept that the singer is probably a great and sweet person who I have no reason to dislike.

As for these annoyances, I <i>have</i> recently been struggling to design an MVP for an idea I'm pursuing..

This is petty and childish, so please move on if petty things irritate you. However, if you don't want to engage in a sonic arms race, which may or may not work, I have a suggestion. I had a similar problem with downstairs neighbors some years ago. My city does not have a noise ordinance, as crazy as that sounds, so calling the police wasn't going to work. I gave these dudes three strikes, being as polite as possible, because I really believe that neighbors should get along. Also, I used to be just like them. Having good relationships with your neighbors is very important. Anyway, I had access to both my and their air conditioning units in the attic above my apartment. I bought some of that stinky fart liquid on Amazon for a few bucks, and just continually put drops into their duct. I would crawl up into the attic once every couple of days and hook them up. The smell was atrocious, and inevitably I would hear the windows and sliding door open and raucous complaining after administering the juice. I did that for about two months, towards the end of their stay. Also, I bought a can of paint, opened it and took it downstairs at 4am one Tuesday morning, and kicked it over on their front stairs area, near where they stored their own cans of green paint. I also got a hold of a bunch of beer bottles and cans from their patio area (I guess they were planning to recycle them or something), and put a ton of the cans just on the other side of their back porch fence, where they couldn't see the cans on the ground, but the property manager could. Finally, I made sure "the main guy"'s car wouldn't start so that he wasn't able to make it to work. Tailpipe blockage will prevent a car from starting. That was the final straw. They were out shortly afterwards. If you go the guerrilla route, you've got to be as quiet as a mouse. If you complain loudly to the neighbor and also to the property manager, they will know exactly what's going on. Be creative! But don't hurt anyone.

> ".. crawl up into the attic once every couple of days and hook them up"

xD Nice that you were able to resolve the issue in at least a fair way.

> Have tried the civil route, but it's not working and it's not illegal to be a rude neighbor.

If it's loud enough or during certain hours, it definitely is. And even if it isn't illegally loud, you can try and complain anyways. From my experience the police usually don't care about the specifics and side with the complaint maker by default.

My high school punk band's practices were shut down way too many times by police, even though we would practice in a closed garage during daylight hours at a legal level. Because even if you're allowed to do it, what else can you do when cops are banging at your door saying you're not? Unless you have a Decibel meter and print-outs of local noise ordinances on hand, the response is generally "Doesn't matter, sounds too loud to me. Turn it off."

A drum machine off ebay and a big cheap amp should do it.

If you want to go full psi-op you need something like "It's a small world" or Barney on repeat.

I had the same problem with my neighbor. He switched on his hi-fi at 7am every day. I asked him not to do it so he turned the volume up. I made a playlist in response with songs like Lustmord: Terror against Terror, Suicide Silence: Bludgeoned to Death, Marduk: World Funeral, Last Days of Humanity: A Divine Proclamation of Finishing the Present Existence, Nile: Annihilation of the Wicked, Cannibal Corpse: Purification by Fire, Meshuggah: Bleed etc and switched it on at 11PM and left it on for 2 hours. There is silence ever since. I consider myself a good neighbor but when I experience this kind of abuse I usually respond in kind with great effect. Catch 33 from Meshuggah is also quite effective as a whole.

It's frustrating how morning people assume that their needs take priority over night owls. Like people who don't think twice about playing music at 7AM that can't handle someone doing the same at 11PM.

Oh, don't play around with your neighbors, take 'em straight to this gem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIMSbKU2oZM

Just like Terror against Terror.

Silver Session for Jason Knuth is pretty good too. I remember reading somewhere that SY just cranked the amps and left the room for a while. Talk about shitty neighbors. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNwHpG5HcQ0&sns=em

I have definitely considered doing this. What I'm afraid of is escalating to a savage acoustic war that ultimately loses me what I really value, namely the peace of mind to write some code.

Soundproof a room, it's probably enough to replace windows and a door.

Soundproofing is difficult and expensive. To the point that it's usually better to move vs doing that.

Actually it's cheap, though labor can be expensive depending on your location.

Well, if you're in for a DIY solution, This seems to work well: http://hackaday.com/2012/07/03/noise-pollution-tit-for-tat-u...

Who let the Dogs out? The noisy neighbour tripping the acoustical switch did!

I'm constantly amused by family-friendly pop culture references to that song, considering how incredibly offensive it is :)

How so? It's a song about douchey guys in the club, being shitty to women.

The songs conveyed threatening, sometimes mocking messages: Alice Cooper’s “No More Mr. Nice Guy,” AC/DC’s “You Shook Me All Night Long.”

The second song listed is an ode to a woman and her sexual prowess. How is this threatening or mocking?

I recently got hired (2 months ago) and a co-worker is listening to metal/death-metal/folk-metal/the-elfic-choir-of-the-army-of-darkness all day long. Except when it's gossip time. There are four of us in 25m² room.

It's slowly starting to bother me.

Scots bagpipers claim prior art.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com