Steve Jobs’ Response | Hacker News Reader

Steve Jobs’ Response

lefsetz.com

77 pointsmikecane49 comments

What a dumb response. The person that wrote in wasn't looking for a free replacement or a free repair---just an answer to the question of whether the laptop was fixable. The snark was unnecessary, as was the assumption that the user was just looking for a free ride. But perhaps Jobs just didn't read the original request carefully; Bob Lefsetz's ranty response doesn't have that excuse. He's using the user's question to rant about something completely unrelated. Lame.

If you read the original email, which is two nodes back in the list, it's clear that the reader is voicing frustration with the possibility of having to spend $300 with no guarantee of fixity. It's not an easy pill to swallow, psychologically.

If the customer had AppleCare, hopefully the diagnosis would have been free. But he didn't. In Blackjack insurance is a sucker's bet but in the game of life, perhaps it isn't.

How's that for a platitude.

p.s. taking suggestions for a single word substitute for "fixity"

repair

See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1214566

The customer appears to have had AppleCare, but AppleCare doesn't cover damage that is your fault.

You'd hope a simple diagnosis would be covered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=409Pjtq7jzY

I agree that a diagnosis should be covered, but the way I read that email it looks like it wasn't.

Ya, so dude flipped out, and hoped for pity. It's a gambit I myself have employed in the past.. to little success.

Since Apple is most likely to make money off AppleCare, it means that it's probably not worth it. If there's a 50% chance your MacBook breaks and it's worth $1000 you're worse off when you insure it if your insurance premium is above $500. The AppleCare premium includes their profit and is thus above the expected value. Do note, this only applies to goods where you have the means to buy a replacement. If you can't afford a new MacBook (and need one to make a living), insure it. Health care as well, the odds of contracting a serious illness in your twenties are pretty slim but you better insure against it because you can't pay for it if you do get ill. In a similar fashion governments don't need to insure their buildings against fires. They have the means to rebuild, insuring would cost more.

Full text of the email Jobs was responding to:

“I wanted to write and express my concern about some recent problems that I have had with Apple Care. This week, my MacBook Pro unfortunately sustained water damage. I understand this is entirely my fault but it is still something I would like to get fixed. After three or four calls I was finally able to get a straight answer. While I was happy to get a straight answer, I was not at all happy with the answer. It is very worrisome to me that the only way to get my computer fixed is to pay almost $300.00 up front with no guarantee that this will fix the problem. I was horrified to learn that their is no system to assess the problem and bill once all damage is known. I am reluctant to put money into a problem that could easily grow. I have had three Apple computers in a row. I love using them but I am not sure if my replacement will be one. I feel powerless in the situation and the whole experience has turned me off of the Apple company.”

(That’s not the kind of mail I would write to Jobs address. I would talk it over with the support hotline. Apple is usually tolerant and there is very often at least some wiggle room. It’s also not as if you would have to let Apple do the repairing, right?)

> That’s not the kind of mail I would write to Jobs address.

Someone was upset with what seems to be a company policy, so they write a letter to the CEO. Happens all the time. (Or is the RDF supposed to deflect these?)

> It’s also not as if you would have to let Apple do the repairing, right?

Huh?

Apple employees are not the only people allowed to touch Apple hardware. Others can and will repair that stuff, too, and they won’t charge quite so much for mere labor costs (maybe 50 € or less for a check). At least that’s the case here in Germany.

And what possible benefit could you expect from writing such a email to someone as self-rightous as Steve Jobs? Yada yada Symbolism yada yada – but that energy could also be used doing something a little more productive like convincing someone on the Apple hotline or finding someone else who will repair your stuff. Apple’s repairs are expensive – and that’s just how it is. Get Apple Care, don’t drop your device and don’t spill water on it or just don’t buy any Apple hardware at all. Problem solved.

Ah. I assume that the person wanted the repairs done by Apple so that it stayed under Apple Care or at the very least for the same reasons that people tend to go to the dealership mechanics for repairs on their cars.

There are certified (by Apple) service providers – at least here in Germany.

People still go directly to the manufacturer for repairs many times when there are licensed repair shops elsewhere. People can be less trusting of independent repair shops because there is a view that they will rip you off/nickel and dime you to death (i.e. you go into a mechanic for one thing and he gives you a 'laundry list' of other things that he wants you to pay him to fix).

Apple has usually been pretty good with labour costs in my experience. Recently, they didn't even charge us for labour when the hard drive on our iMac failed.

EDIT: They also accidentally scratched the display while repairing it, so they replace that for free. Win!

"I would talk it over with the support hotline."

Why would you have any hopes of this having any effect? If you think the system is broken, it seems very unlikely some low level employee will take it upon them to escalate the problem to management. They'll just go "sorry, company rules, nothing we can do about it".

Typically hotlines are actually just glorified "choose your own adventure" books. That is, instead of having to do the reading yourself, the hotline staff does it for you. None of the prescripted paths lead to "here is an interesting idea that management might want to hear about".

The Genius bar is a far better bet. When I showed up with a refurbished 24" iMac out of warranty, I was exempted from paying for diagnosis unless replacing the power supply did bring it back to life. (If it was the motherboard, it would be a better deal for me to take my machine apart for parts, eBay them, then buy another entire used machine.)

Disclosure: I own 2 Apple laptops and pre-ordered an iPad.

I spilled a glass of wine on my Dell Inspiron 1705 awhile ago. I called Dell and told them what happened, and they gave me the same story: $250 to look at it. The only problem I could detect was with certain keys on the keyboard, so I googled around a bit and found a replacement keyboard for something like $25. I also discovered that replacing the keyboard was dead simple, and could be done in under 10 minutes. I did that, and everything was fine.

Contrast this with disassembly of my 13" Unibody Macbook.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGcVwmUSmak

Instead of prying out one plastic cover and undoing a couple of screws on the Dell, I have to do all of that just to get to the keyboard.

If you buy a mac laptop, buy a sleeve, buy a snap on cover, get an AppleCare warranty, and sell it before that warranty runs out. They are not meant for you to repair yourself, and much of their value as high-end design products can vanish in a moment of inattention.

If you want a laptop you can maintain yourself, Dell is a better option. They are also well designed, but with very different design goals. (Many also make decent Hackintoshes, I hear.)

With the (expensive) Dell complete care, you're supposed to be able to have them fix stuff like that for free. I realize that, long term, it's cheaper to save the money towards a new computer, but it's a nice "peace of mind" thing when the computer is very important to you.

Anyone ever put that to the test?

You don't mention it, but Dell puts the service manuals for their laptops online, which can really help. For example: http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/ins5100/en/sm/

I had to replace the keyboard on one of my Dell laptops, and while I would have been able to do it without the manual, it was very nice to be able to just follow instructions and know I was following the minimal path, rather than disassembling everything, with the attendant screw-loss risks.

Determining if something is salvageable is at least half of the job of fixing it. If it takes four hours to fix the laptop, and two of them are spent determining if it can be fixed, who should pay for those two hours (especially in cases where mistreatment is not only suspected but confirmed)?

This isn't any different than any other industry (most mechanics charge a "diagnostic fee"). In the case of consumer electronics the situation is compounded by the fact that most people will choose to forgo the repair (once they see that the cost of repair is a large percentage of the replacement cost), leaving the service company on the hook for the cost of the diagnosis.

A friend of mine worked at a general electronics repair business and he said 90% of the work is in the diagnosis. Customers would bring in their equipment, he would crack it open an examine, and a lot of customers either didn't like the repair price or simply didn't come back. Since he'd done most of the work just finding out what was wrong with it, he almost always fixed it. So they ended up with a lot of extra electronics to sell.

How much work goes into determining whether the laptop is fixable? Probably enough to warrant a charge.

Right which is why a policy of giving a range with the maximum amount to fix it is a better policy. It takes five minutes to take a look at a machine and say oh man that looks like it could be anywhere from $400 to 2K (replace every part).

5 minutes? It probably takes 10x that just to get it into the hands of someone who can make that assessment.

Off topic: It's really distracting when a site overrides the default cursor for no reason.

  html, body {
    cursor: crosshair;
  }

Don't do that!

I was confused for a solid 3 seconds wondering how I got my mac into screen clipping mode.

Rock stars are anti-heroes. They don’t do it everybody else’s way, but their own.

To bring the thread back onto topic, the article needs editing. One example, substituting "anybody" for "everybody" in the above excerpt would make more sense.

Yeah, I used Firebug to disable that.

The author complains about a cult of personality around Zappos' CEO in the middle of his paen to Apple's.

Yeah, I quit reading after that. Just lookin' for a cheap troll.

Shit, I treat my MacBook Pro like gold, I know how much it costs, I won’t even put a drink near it.

Interesting, I'm usually of the opposite mind. If I pay $2500 for a ThinkPad I expect to be able to spill water on it and it continue to run great. Otherwise what's the price premium for? A shiny case?

In case you're wondering, ThinkPads do in fact have a drainage hole for those unexpected spills while working away. I wish my current HP ProBook 5310m had one.

Not to mention Dell's warranty covers spills and other accidental, non-abuse use cases. Mistakes happen, I'm willing to pay my insurance money instead of worrying about what's happening to my precious gear.

I'm a Mac user, and Apple's customer service is top notch - way better than Dell's consumer customer service (3 hours on hold? hurray!), but I have to admit that the accident coverage options in their warranty makes me jealous.

Reliability and robustness are features of ThinkPads, not basic laptop functionality. With the ThinkPad, a good chunk of the 2.5k goes towards making it a solid product. With the apple, a good chunk goes towards making sure it's pretty and a trendy product. Simple as that.

Must have been before they were bought by Lenovo. Seems like the T61's we have at work are nothing but trouble.

Regarding the new Macbooks, the casing machined from a solid block of aluminum is very robust. Quite a bit more robust than any Thinkpad I've ever had by hands on.

When you are super rich and super cool, you can be an asshole and nobody will stop you. At least that's the message I got from this.

This is reference to an article, which is a refernce to an article. Here's the original article - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/7503635/The-top-...

You are missing the point of his post. It's not just picking up on a news story.

No, it's ranting about something completely unrelated to the original reference that he gave. The email to Steve Jobs is from a person that is frustrated with something that a lot of people have been frustrated with at one point or another: "Why should I have to shell out $X (where X is a non-trivial amount) just for you to give me an estimate of how much more money it will take to fix the issue, or even to just tell me whether the problem is fixable or not?" The idea that someone like this is looking for a 'free ride' or to get 'something for nothing' is disingenuous. The people are just looking for "it will cost $X to fix" or "it's not fixable, you're screwed", not, "Well.... I could look at it and tell you what I think... But it's gonna cost ya."

I'll grant you that there are more details to the user's problems -- that $300 is scandalous, and I grant that too -- but it's still not the point of the post. If you want to say that he shouldn't have posted because he gave an incomplete picture, then I suggest you read some of his other posts to see where this fits in. That's the best I can do. And I thank everyone for posting the material that wasn't in his post.

Diagnosis is work. It costs something. Some businesses roll the cost of diagnosis into marketing expenses ("Free evaluation!"); others won't (e.g., my auto mechanic or my doctor). This guy was asking for a "free" diagnosis. That said, if he had AppleCare, even if the damage was his fault, my internal "fairness" compass says providing the diagnosis for free seems fair even if the repair isn't (what if the water isn't the problem and it's just a loose connection or a known bad part?).

Interesting to note is that the guy did have Applecare too.

I disagree. The reason I cliked on the link (and I suppose several other people will too) was to read Steve Jobs's responses (as suggested by the title of the post), not some guy's rant about Steve Jobs's responses

Note to bloggers: Can we stop living Steve Jobs' life vicariously?

Obviously the customer is complaining about a convoluted, possibly unfair, repair process more than trying to evade responsibility. I believe Apple has since changed their practices. The last incident I had with Apple included a free evaluation (they paid postage too) and a flat repair cost that was pretty hefty. About $200 less than a brand new computer. My guess is the estimate included the possibility of replacing the entire machine since we never discussed the possibility the machine couldn't be repaired. (but I didn't bother since it was just a banged up Ethernet port)

Anyway my personal feeling is I give a company as much respect as they give me. I admit I've tried to screw companies on warranty repair if I was either unhappy with the product or didn't like how their technical support people treated me. If a company plays it straight and fair I'll show them respect. Over a period of probably 3 years I had some awful experiences with Toshiba and I certainly will try to screw them again in the future if possible. Treat your customers with respect.

Does anybody know how hard it would be to design a notebook that doesn't die if you spill a few drops of water on the keyboard?

A Google term you could use is "ruggedized laptops", that will lead you to some other terms. Prepare to pay. But if you need it, it's worth it. (In general, you don't need it.)

That looks like total overkill. I'm talking about protection from spilling an ounce of water, not using it as a weapon to bash grizzly bears to death with or whatever these people are doing with their computers.

Another "Let's all bow down and worship at the cult of Apple" post.

Apple's return policies are somewhat abysmal, but that's OK, because in the eyes of many, Apple can do no wrong because "At least they're not Microsoft".

The iPhone is the only phone I've ever used that is so poorly designed that it gets destroyed if you sweat a little bit. (Hint .. Heat makes people sweat. The iPhone gets very hot when used.) It's a design flaw that Apple refuses to acknowledge.

We've had good luck with the iphones in our family. Two teenage boys and wife have them with no problems. I don't have it yet because my mobile is my business line and their ability to get a signal, until the newest model, has been crap. The latest version seems almost (but not quite) as good as my old Razr. When we're all somewhere with poor signal, everybody borrows my Razr.

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