Canada’s tech sector is hemorrhaging talent [audio]
canadalandshow.com
canadalandshow.com
During my university the local division of Coverity did a good job of this. They sponsored the programming club events. They sent real engineers to every career fair. They gave internships to 2 years. They kept on skilled programmers throughout the year. One guy I knew got married and bought a house while working part time there even before graduation.
I would say that company grabbed the majority of the high-performing nice-to-work-with students from my year. The only ones they did not get was me (video game programming japan), and my friend (C++ standard library programming at google).
Or you could whine about why you deserve to get Canada's best at insulting wages. Maybe that will work.
Had a opportunity with a Ontario based startup, their starting package was 40k and they wanted me to relocate. When pushing for a better salary, I was told this was the best they could offer. Fucking insulting wage for a backend developer (Go/Appengine)
As frustrating as it is to admit, and as uninteresting as it is, the simple answer is usually the most appropriate:
Canadian companies like their tier-2 low wage talent (and some tier-1 low wage talent - who prefer Canada). Its good enough for their usecases, and it gets the job done. Meanwhile, they like to complain that they can't hire tier-1 low wage talent.
That is the only answer I can come up with!
[1]http://www.canadianbusiness.com/innovation/how-canadas-immig...
[2] http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/john-mccallum-substantially-...
A year later, Google swooped in with an offer that quintupled my compensation. The thing that struck me about it most was the supposedly-intense Google programmer interviews were actually far less difficult than most of the all-day interviews I did for Canadian institutions. I was a bit outraged that these interviews could be so tough for such meager compensation, especially given the cost of living in Vancouver. I was surprised they were able to get away with it, and it looks like it's starting to bite them in the ass, for which I am glad.
Edit: The specific places I would name, if anyone's curious, are Zymeworks and SAP in Vancouver, as well as staff research positions at UBC, University of Calgary, and the BC Cancer Agency.
the first step to making this kind of money is not settling for anything less, because opportunity is the biggest cost. when was the last time you turned down 150k to wait for a better offer?
The only way you are likely to see "another 100k on a good year" is if you sell all the RSUs you've got that year.
I've see a few people "add a couple of million" when their project of 7 years succeeded, but these were very senior people.
I think it's an illusion to think that rank and file SWEs will ever have an "add a few million" year.
> who do you think is buying all these houses?
I see very few rank and file Google SWEs being able to afford anything within 1 hour commute of Mountain View.
That requires a lot more rigour than the US process, which basically consists of "hey, we're offering [huge salary], compete for it."
I love my country and would love nothing more than to stay here, but when moving south of the border means a 50% bump, it's hard to stay in Canada.
It doesn't help that most Canadian CEOs talk about the issue as if they're entitled to Canadian graduates working for them without making any attempt at matching US pay packages.
I'm just shy of 4x.
I should have mentioned I'm still a student. I'm sure that for a senior developer, the difference is significantly larger.
And don't let anybody get on you about the cost of living. You can live pretty inexpensively in San Francisco, as you can in any city, if you're willing to make some sacrifices (roommates, transit).
Also, while this:
> $175-300k USD = $240-400k CAD
is accurate, it fluctuates. Back in 2008 CAD and USD were at par with CAD actually exceeding USD for periods. Also, unless you're living in Canada and getting paid in USD (or hoarding cash to return to living in Canada) the exchange rate shouldn't really mean much in terms of your career choices. It makes more sense to measure those salaries against local cost of living / quality of living / etc.
What do you mean by this? After taxes, rent, food and other living costs, you're keeping almost 50% of your compensation to spend on whatever you want. How does purchasing power not matter? How much does a car cost in Canada? An iPhone? How much does a flight to Japan cost or a dinner in Tokyo? Of course the exchange rate is relevant even when you're not "hoarding" cash and have no intentions to return to Canada.
How is it bold? It's a fact. You have no right to be in Canada. I have no right to be in the US.
That's why I try to behave myself.
Thus, if the populist sentiment of the people of some land-mass is that you don't have a right to be there with them, then you don't, no matter what abstract arguments you might give to the contrary. Your rights only extend as far as others' willingness to enforce them for you.
Companies can't pay money they don't have. In my experience as a Canadian founder, Canadian companies are just poorer. We'd love to pay more but then we'd be bankrupt.
Most US "companies" which hire tech talent, aren't looking to scale up "businesses" which are cashflow positive. These "startups" are effectively bankrupt relying entirely on their current runways and their bi-annual VC injections.
Like they said in the video, Canadians for better or worse are inherently more risk averse than their American counter parts. Even more appropriately the entrepreneurs which stay in Canada vs move on faith to the bay, are tautologically less risk averse.
To look at this from a different perspective, Canada may just be living with a sustainable tech sector.
Its like watching/envying your neighbors as they come home from their third sunny vacation, this year, to their over sized house and driveway with two Mercedes. But that envy would quickly disappear if you ever got a chance to look at their books. You'd see they just took out a second mortgage on the house, when they could barely pay for the first one, so they could continue to finance their cars. Meanwhile, they still have so much additional debt accruing it really should be criminal.
I really wouldn't know though.. I'm a risk averse Canadian, whose just sorta hoping I've found a sweet spot on the risk-reward line.
Hopefully everything continues as is.
* Our non-salary expenses are largely paid in USD (hosting, cloud services, etc) * Developer salaries are in a global-ish market and we've seen salaries shoot up greatly because of the falling dollar to compete the falling purchasing power of the CAD * Large US companies opening up local development offices further driving the * Revenues lag the costs of salaries and other services -- we have to pay our staff, hosting, cloud services before we receive revenue. Of course, this is always the case, but with the falling dollar you feel it more, especially in the case of salaries
In short, this is not manufacturing where your inputs and salaries are largely localized. At best the falling dollar is a push and at worst it's a negative impact. Really, it's currency volatility that is more the issue, if it would stabilize and stay that way for a few years, it would make planning and adapting much easier. This year alone, we've seen 0.68 dollar and a 0.79 dollar.
Add to this:
* The general "Canadian Discount" US VC give to Canadian companies and the stinginess of Canadian VC * The SRED roulette -- it's not really free money as described, you have to spend it then pray the government will give you the tax credits. In my experience what's decided as SRED-able can really depend on who the reviewer is, it's more of a lottery than anything else unless you can dedicate someone basically full time maintaining SRED records. Also, you can't pay for salaries and services with tax credits -- they only help for the next year if you have profits.
Actually, corporate taxes are lower for a Canadian Controlled Corporation than the equivalent US company, but that doesn't really factor into things like salaries. Taxes are on profits and salaries are before profits. Also, most Canadian companies, especially in the tech sector, also have to contribute to medical insurance. You're going to have a hard time recruiting without extended health care benefits.
All that said, I am positive on running a company here. Just would like less uncertainty in terms of exchange rates.
I pay for that stuff out of pocket and it's like, $500 a year.
Unsurprisingly plenty of people with in demand skills that travel are looking at the exit or are already gone.
The only reassuring thing about this podcast was the brief mention that Ted Livingston (of Kik) was at those talks with so-called "leaders of Canada". I mean, do we really expect the likes of Galen Weston, Magna International, and the like to really talk about innovation or tech? Other than Kik, which of those companies would any person on HN really be interested in working at?
I'm curious if there are articles about Canada hemorrhaging math/finance talent to New York? Or is this just something we perpetually complain about in tech as if talent/industry centralization wasn't a phenomenon in almost every big new market in history.
All of our good Canadian musicians, comedians, and actors go to the US and become big, countless have done so. That's how we can tell if their good or not, usually. And nothings wrong with that. No one complained when Drake signed to a US label when his new career took off...
It's almost impossible to do anything A++ in Canada because it gets sucked into the US.
So Canada is a great place for the 99%, but for anything that's exceptional, it's the US.
The way market economies work 'exceptional' companies suck up most of the profits and surpluses ...
So it's a perennial problem for the talented.
But again, for most people, Canada is a better place if you can hack the weather.
Not the Tragically Hip. But they always seemed happy with that.
But they never sold their souls to the States and they seem very proud of it.
I learnt ML, sensor stuff, R, python and all other stuff in my first job right out of school. Made easy six figures (+ benefits and hefty bonuses) without any recruiter haggling, and am in comfortable position now. Because I turned towards traditional engineering companies, and then went there and did what I wanted to do as I got an understanding and tech oriented manager. I changed a lot of internal workings in that company.
Exchange can be normalized for most us/ca comparisions, i.e. 100K in Canada is only 70K US but most prices are normalized for that.
The Bay Area is mind-boggling expensive though - and you'd all be naive to not consider that.
My flat in Montreal would be $5500 a month, USD anywhere in SF. It's amazing. And cheap.
Also consider that startups in the US have to cover healthcare, which is very expensive. That said, if you have healthcare in the US, it's better than in Canada. Again, it doesn't really matter for normal people under the age of 30.
The Vancouver technology sector is also a joke compared to Seattle... To the extent that hootsuite is a 'big deal' there.
If you look at actual studies of the cost of living in cities around the world, like from Mercer or the Economist, Vancouver is closer to the upper middle in terms of cost of living.
Vancouver literally has a 0.5% rental vacancy rate right now. If you put up an ad on Craigslist for an apartment for rent it'll get 50 replies in two hours. People are getting into bidding wars on apartments.
The point remains, if you rent in Vancouver the city doesn't rank very high on the most expensive cities in the world list.
As for a), yes, Canada's multiculturalism attracts migrants, who in spite of their talent have a crappy negotiating position and are easily taken advantage of. Everyone has a story of the guy who barely speaks english but who can code getting worked like a dog for peanuts.
for b) for software in Canada, you sell to the 5 banks or government. it's recurring license fees from stable customers but in a limited market.
And c) there is no market for software in canada that would justify a billion dollar valuation. Those valuations were based on cornering a user base to use as a sales channel.
Further Canada's de-facto official policy of currency debasement to keep industrial exports afloat means limited purchasing power for citizens, therefore anything that succeeds has to succeed somewhere else.
It's a great place to outsource your dev shop, kind of like a more reliable India or Belarus, but as a market it's just not large enough for to reap the network effect / micro-margin/infinite scale benefits of software solutions.
http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=CAD&view=10Y
A 35-40% swing in the purchasing power of the currency is a pretty big deal.
Countries will just blow tax money trying to change things. Focus on your core competencies.
Now when I go back I'm struck by the high prices, high taxes, and a general (and sadly very Canadian) aversion to risk.
I used to brag about Canada and honestly felt it was a better place to live...I don't think that any more.
It's not a good place for talent.
No it's not. Most youth have zero dreams related to property ownership, as everything near the core and cities that are near the core are prohibitively expensive. There is a general apathy and malaise here.
"Just move outside of the city" they say, to suburbs that are also priced 500k+, and just far enough to only have to spend an hour and a half commuting to your city job.
You have clearly never lived in the Silicon Valley if you're talking about housing.
Housing in the Valley is beyond unaffordable. A choice job at Google and you still won't be buying a home.
You're probably young, and single. Your class has always struggled with home ownership. Most couples can afford to get in on the housing ladder by buying and apartment, and in some year, buy a home.
That said - Toronto and Vancouver are distorted markets right now. Everywhere else in Canada is pretty normal and home ownership is similar to most places in the US that are not NYC/SF.
That's just not true. Housing is very expensive, but a "choice" job at Google pays enough to buy a home. The same goes for Apple, Facebook, Amazon, and the other large companies. Their compensation for mid- and senior-level people is so good that it's difficult to convince them to leave, even for considerable startup equity.
That's like $7K a month mortgage payment. $82K/year. You need to be earning $200K to pay that.
There are surely a lot of people at Google earning $200K, but not that many in relative terms. Most devs with a few years experience won't earn that.
If you need to earn $200K to be able to afford a home, I would say that's ridiculous.
Most Google developers are very talented and educated, and will not be able to buy a home. That sucks.
You referred to "choice" jobs. Those aren't jobs for people with a few years of experience. Think 5-10 years.
Furthermore, I can assure you that a huge number of people at Google clear $200k per year in total compensation, which includes a high salary, stock, and bonuses. I know people at other companies I've mentioned who do so as well, with less than 10 years of experience in the industry.
There are also plenty of homes that cost less than the median -- in fact, half of them do...
How sure of that are you? I don't have a lot of data points, but 3.5 years of experience got me a 270k offer from Google. I find it hard to believe it was _that_ much higher than average.
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-google-programmer-blew-off-...
I'm not going to argue that's a reasonable set of requirements to get a house, but it's possible.
So what? If renting is a better financial decision than buying in a particular market, you rent. It's that simple, or else you're making an emotional decision based on value judgments rather than objective measures of benefit or cost.
Not to say Canada is perfect but yes there is a cost to social cohesion.
As for aversion to risk, I personally don't want to live on a rollercoaster.
So I guess we'll have to see if that works out for them.
We should be able to thrive in a well paid job in a place that we want and like (not like we are entitled or anything this applies to any job everywhere).