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Comment by jalanb | Hacker News Reader

> most students choose to major in CS because they want to become professional programmers (aka Software Engineers)

Then why not major in Software Engineering? Is that not an option in American universities?

One problem is that it does not have the standing of a pure subject like math, engineering or CS.

Its more vocational, isn't offered by top-tier universities (in the UK) and therefore has lower status e.g. its like taking Media Studies at an ex-poly vs. reading English at Oxford.

It was very much seen that way back in the day at Birmingham University. We wrote an x11 window manager with audio and graphics processor apps for our first term in 2nd year. I saw academia start to go down the pan at college with the introduction of "ICT". To me, this was nothing but subsidised Microsoft training.

this was nothing but subsidised Microsoft training.

"Subsidized Microsoft training" is what most people actually want and need to get the sort of job they aspire to. People with this "Subsidized Microsoft training" are also what many companies are looking to hire. So why is it such a bad thing to offer people this option?

It's not a problem, unless you go to higher education looking for CS and end up with that instead.

Because we need people to program computers not use word.

There is a problem here, but to be clear, the solution is not to convert CS into vocational training. The problem with the way software engineering was introduced into US universities is that it was usually dumbed-down to broaden its appeal. I do not know if it is still like that.

Don't know about the US but in Israel anything to do with programming is in such high demand and so overbooked (therefor requiring competitive grades to get in) that you get what you can.

I got into my bachelors in 2002, at the nadir of the dot-com crash (when demand for CS education was at its lowest) & my grades in high-school were just good enough to get into the Math & CS combined program (both CS or SE had higher requirements).

The only other option would have been to go to a private college rather than a state university, which would have had (at least) double the tuition and (at most) half the prestige/employability-potential of a university degree.

Interesting. I'm from Germany and studied "Computer Science and Media" and it was rather overbooked, like Media stuff often is here.

But the regular computer science or software engineering degrees (like most technical degrees) aren't overbooked ever.

They let in everyone and throw 60% - 70% out after the first year.

Unlike Germany, in Israel how desirable a study is is directly correlated with how much money one can make working in it...So media/art stuff is very low on the totem pole.

Hehe.

I have the feeling most German (Millenials?) just study what they do in their free time.

Yes, there are the academic families, that tell their kids to become lawyer or medical doctor or something like that.

But most tell me I was just lucky that I liked doing computer stuff, so I could study computer science and make "mad bucks" while they liked to draw or read and had to study something like languages or fine arts.

I have actually been living in Germany for the past 3 years, and spent 8 years in Austria before that :)

I find the non-materialistic (or at least less materialistic) mentality here preferable. But to be honest I think the only reason is that life in the German speaking countries is much easier - you can earn minimum wage or close to it and still live a decent life.

In Israel I had to earn twice as much for half the quality of life (slight exaggeration but only slight).

I like this mentality too.

But Bafög (the german student aid) can accumulate to more than 10k€ of dept (you have to pay back half of it) and some of my friends even took credits for their (non-consecutive) master degrees or because they didn't finish their bachelors in regular time. Now they are stuck with 10k - 40k of dept and no way to pay this back in with the money they make.

Or my favorite - Business Administration with Concentration in Management Information Systems. This was my route and it laid a great foundation of how business works (you know, that part of a company that PAYS for IT... as well as business-focused IT (which does lag behind new uses of tech but does cover being ready for fundamental shifts/disruptions - which has been around in the business world since the beginning).

Yes, it is an option (at least in America). Many colleges' business departments do offer a "information technology" degree, which typically combines some high-level programming skills with some business school classes (eg accounting, economics, management, marketing, etc.).

This is probably the best undergrad option for anyone who wants to be a "professional programmer" over here, if you are more concerned about the writing web apps side and not the optimize-that-algorithm nuts-and-bolts type of side.

Not sure about America but it's more of lack of understanding in Australia.

Also, in the university i am studying in. The university course for a Software Engineer is for 5 years since that is the minimum study time needed to be accredited as an engineer while the CS degree is 3 years.

The more messed up thing is that everything taught in CS major is taught the Software Engineering major but Software Engineering has more electives and has a few general engineering units.

It's not common. Usually you can choose between Computer Science or Electrical Engineering, if you want to do things with computers. The problem is, Comp Sci tends towards an inordinate amount of proofs on blackboards and theoretical horse-hockey, that you don't get to actually do in code, while EE tends towards playing with soldering irons and wiring breadboards, with a little embedded low-level programming.

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