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Comment by kurtosis | Hacker News Reader

I've heard this said many times - that in the U.S. there is less of a "stigma" against founding a company that happens to not work out (for any number of reasons). Can anyone here give examples of how this stigma is more severe in non-U.S. countries? Is it that no investor will ever give money to anyone who has so much as touched an unsuccessful business? Or are there more subtle social factors at work? (i.e. people stop being your friend if your business doesn't work out) I'd really like to hear some stories about how failure was more severely stigmatized that in the U.S. especially in countries that have much stronger "safety nets" than the USA

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From what the German business press has reported and my personal contacts with many entrepreneurs have confirmed, in Germany (which still has a strong "safety-net") you'll be stigmatized.

On the level of your personal contacts, when you start up, you'll mostly not be (morally for example) supported in your intent by your family, friends, peers. Most Germans want a secure job, working hours from nine-to-five, their (circa) 30 (working) days vacations etc. And will most likely aim for that (or eventually fall into the safety-net of the social state) than risk starting their own business.

Second problem is your future: If you start a company and it fails many doors will be (in many cases firmly) closed afterwards making it harder and harder with every failure for you to start again.

I'd say that a safety-net everywhere (!) isn't good. Because, when you put safety-net everywhere, everything becomes overregulated. Favorite joke in Germany is that, because most garages don’t have windows and laws forbid working environments without windows, Apple, Hewlett-Packard and many other garage start-ups wouldn't be possible.

I actually had this debate once when I was a member of my local town council (in germany. A small business started by a woman in her garage had to shut down and I cited HP and other famous "garage" companies and asked if we would have shut down their business. The answer I got was "Yes of course" the vote afterwards was 12-1 for shutting it down.

On the other hand there is a lively startup scene and especially the online business is quite forgiving so it's not the same everywhere in germany.

'Keeping face' is very important in China, and founding a failed company would cause you to lose face - which could damage your social network (people willing to trade favors with you).

Also, in China, many people don't respect people who start companies. I often hear the opinion that business people almost need to be devious and unethical to succeed here.

Plus, there is no comparable appreciation for smaller, boutique, local companies here that there is in the US. The notion that 'small can be good and premium' and 'big can be bad and faceless' doesn't really translate. If you ask a person if they think they'd get better quality at a little, specialized cafe vs. a Starbucks, most people would pick the Starbucks (unlike in the US, where Starbucks has been experimenting with running 'stealth stores' where they don't display their logo and which they attempt to customize to the neighborhood).

I have only 2nd, 3rd-hand information but, I thought it was every Chinese person's ultimate dream to own & run their own business.

When I hear that phrase, I usually think of cultural factors, which includes some economic ones like the attitudes of employers. In Silicon Valley at least, it's perfectly reasonable to turn down an $80k solid job offer to start a company with an unproven idea, fail at at it within a few years, then go apply for those $80k jobs again. In a lot of countries: 1) your friends/family will think you're nuts for turning down a good job for some insane side project; and 2) future employers will look at your 3-4 years starting and then bankrupting a company as a negative, not a positive (i.e. as evidence that you're good at running companies into the ground).

Of those, #2 might be the biggest difference? I feel that in the U.S., #1 is actually still pretty strong, at least as far as reactions among non-techie family/friends go.

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