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Comment by tajen | Hacker News Reader

> Tons of headphones obsoleted.

They do provide the lightening-to-jack adapter in the box for free.

Jason Snell "joked on Twitter last week that it’ll cost $19 if Apple’s sort of sorry, $29 if it’s not sorry, and if it’s free in the box then Apple’s really afraid of consumer backlash."

https://sixcolors.com/post/2016/09/what-to-look-for-at-wedne...

Apple's selling them for $9

w/ one free in box

Using the relative translation from above, that must mean they are sorry if you lose the one included in the box ;)

I've often joked that shininess is so important to Apple, that all you get in the box is the item, a charger, and a cleaning cloth.

Apple gets reportedly $4 per connector [1] for each 3rd-party device that uses a Lightning connector -- and that's with their new, kinder/gentler licensing scheme.

The adapter that comes in the box is the proverbial drug dealer's "first one" that's always free.

Imagine getting a $4 royalty on every pair of iPhone-compatible headphones that's sold in the world. That's worth a lot of free adapters in the short run.

Just as a first-order estimate: Forbes says that annual worldwide sales of headphones are $300M. If the average price of headphones is around 20 bucks (taking into account there are a small number of very expensive headphones but also a lot of cheap ones, that's probably high), that's something in the neighborhood of 15M pairs sold per year. If half of those become Lightning-connector equipped, that's $30M/year in revenue (on costs of zero!) going to Apple.

The connector could make the phone substantially worse as a phone and it still might be worthwhile. There doesn't need to be a compelling technical reason.

[1]: http://www.forbes.com/sites/theopriestley/2016/01/11/apple-d...

iPhones sales are over 100 billion dollars a year [1]. If this change makes the iPhone substantially worse to the point of losing even 1% of the would-be buyers, Apple will lose over a billion dollars in revenue.

The risks are so staggering that I would think they must genuinely believe that the jack connector is so technically obsolete that it makes the iPhone worse than the iPhone will be without it. I just can't fathom Tim Cook (or anyone) betting 100 billions for $30M/year. Of course I can be completely wrong.

[1] http://www.statista.com/statistics/263402/apples-iphone-reve...

Apple isn't betting 100 billion. Some portion of users use headphones, I have no idea what percentage of users that is, but it isn't everyone. Apple would know this figure though.

Yeah but by the same logic what if 1% of iPhone users buy a second pair of headphones, even third party ones.

Tim Cook's Apple is all about grabbing extra small amounts of cash from users. e.g MacBook being unable to use USB devices or HDMI displays without a $90 dongle

The adapter in the box isn't free, it's "free". You're still shelling out hundreds of dollars for the box, and the adapter is merely part of the bill-of-materials.

1- You are assuming the wired headphone market has a strong growth future. That's could be reasonable but is by no means certain

2- do you seriously think a company with a $515B market cap is doing this solely for the financial reason of adding a $30M/yr revenue stream? If Apple TV was considered "a hobby" for years the wired headphone market is... I don't even know. A momentary flash of color?

Can't the reason be exactly what Apple said? Wired headphones using an analog connection kind of suck. wired headphones with a smart connection are a little better because power and noise cancellation or other "smarts" don't have to all be bolted on to the earphones, but honestly still kind of crappy because of wires.

Clearly Apple thinks that wireless audio is the future but today wireless kind of sucks as well (pairing, moving between devices). Apple thinks it can make that better. So if in their view that is the future why would they waste energy and time and space on a 2nd dedicated IO port for audio?

The other thing about that though- you can't listen to your headphones or hook up aux speakers while your phone is charging.

How often do you do that?

Whenever I'm listening to something and the phone is about to die.

Edit: also in the car (I have an older car with just an AUX jack).

There are 2.1A lighter-socket USB adapters.

The point is that you can only hook up audio OR power, not both simultaneously.

I imagine it's fairly common, since streaming music (even over WiFi) drains the battery.

My own setup for a while now, when playing music for long periods, has been to connect the phone to charge using the lightning cable, and then connect to a (wireless) Bluetooth speaker which itself is also plugged in and charging using its own USB cable connected to a USB charger. It has much the same effect as having a "charging dock", but just requires two powered USB ports rather than a custom piece of equipment.

This setup is becoming more and more similar. My own system is my iPhone just plugged into whatever Lightning cable I want (laptop, bedside left, bedside right), with either Bluetooth or Spotify Connect to the Amazon Echo on my shelf.

This is the wireless future they're talking about. We shouldn't have to have a device to charge and listen through at the same time. We should charge wired and listen "wirelessly" (even if the audio device is wired for power).

Most of the time when I'm driving I have my phone connected to my car with an aux cable and charging via lightning.

I had an old iPod that was unlistenable while it was charging, because noise from the charger leaked into the audio. I tried again recently with an Android phone and found the same problem to a lesser degree. Nice to hear that people are able to do this without trouble.

Sounds like you may need a ground loop isolator.

I've got portable speakers that sound absolutely terrible when actively charging. Do you reckon this would help?

Ground loops are very odd phenomena that can be hard to debug, but it will probably work.

(The stupid option is to lift the ground on your mains adapter, but you really shouldn't do that, somebody might get killed.)

Nearly every day in the car.

I do quite regularly.

Often enough, actually, when I'm driving. My car has a stereo-USB connection that works very well most of the time, allowing me to charge my phone and cycle through my music collection. Its charging speed is slow though, going only at maybe what, 500mA, 1A if I'm lucky? It takes even longer if I'm using Google Maps. To counteract this problem, I've recently started using a power converter, that I normally have for charging my laptop, to charge my phone because it offers a 2.1A USB port that works a LOT better for me.

Why does this matter? Because I can still have my phone's audio going to the car by way of an AUX cable.

I do almost every day in my (circa 2007) car which has a 3.5mm aux jack and no Bluetooth.

There are lighter-plug Bluetooth receivers that have an analog out specifically for cars, I'll likely have to buy one of I end up getting the 7.

very often, it's a great way to dj to an arbitrary device, plug 3.5mm aux cable and charger, apply shuffle, enjoy music. i would hate to drain my battery playing music with my phone when it's sitting next to an outlet and is only incapable of charging due to poor design decisions.

maybe they'll make a lightning hub/splitter so you can do both?

I do that quite frequently. When I take a road trip, generally I have my phone plugged in, doing the navigation, and providing music. I use the headphone jack to connect to my car's audio system (no Bluetooth) and a 12V to USB adapter for power.

Just my view but I do it daily while at work.

I do this all day, every day. Long skype conference calls tend to drain the battery pretty fast.

This is huge for cars. Power and Podcasts via a single Plug.

All the time at work

Every night while falling asleep to a podcast.

Or being on long (support) conference calls whilst keeping your phone charged.

The port is data and charge. So I recon it's only a matter of time before there's a split plug for charge and audio.

my pockets are going to be very full with all these things I need to buy/carry around for my iPhone

OK. Mine aren't. I already carry a small bag over my shoulder on the way to and from work; it has a spare battery in case I somehow need it (unusual, since I fully charge my phone every night while I'm asleep), plus my Kindle, sunglasses, and other daily useful things. My pockets tend to be used for keys and phone.

Am I that weird?

I wouldn't say "weird", but I am curious how you manage to swap your iPhone battery to the spare you carry.

I'm sure GP means an external USB battery pack.

"It's European!"... lots of people carry bags, so I wouldn't say weird. I just don't want to start because of a phone.

I carry it regardless. I carry it because I have a commute of almost an hour and a half, much of it on a train, and I like having my Kindle and my sunglasses and other things, but don't carry my laptop to/from the office (thus no laptop bag). So I have a small shoulder bag that I put stuff in and bring with me.

So any time I'm going to be out long enough to have to theoretically carry full kit for my phone (in a hypothetical multiple-dongle world), I'm also going to have that bag with me, or some equivalent object for carrying things (i.e., extended outings not involving going to work), and not have to stuff everything in my pockets.

Apparently this is weird enough to be downvoted into negative-score territory.

Out of interest, is there a noticeable difference between the USA and Europe for bag use? Here in the UK, a bag is sensible and I could imagine going to work without one (for my lunch, spare USB cable, iPad etc).

I had never thought of it being a significant cultural difference.

Thats ok, they made it so THIN

I don't understand your point.

Wouldn't the dongle just be permanently attached to your headphones ?

Naw, not if I want to get to work and then hook them up to my computer. Or I want to connect my phone to my car via an aux cable.

That's assuming I ever use only one pair of headphones and don't need connecting to aux cables / external speakers.

Or that my headphones are always used with just iPhones.

Basically, no more plug-and-play. This is exactly why 3.5mm was good: universal plug-and-play.

> The port is data and charge. So I recon it's only a matter of time before there's a split plug for charge and audio.

When your[1] answer to a dongle problem is "add more dongles", you really need to rethink the situation.

1. The generic "you", not specifically you, Phillip.

this is what "one" is for... (instead of generic "you")

Which is just as weird, one == everyone.

It's not another dongle, but a dongle with two ports rather than one.

> It's not another dongle, but a dongle with two ports rather than one.

Sounds like another dongle to me! The last half of your sentence contradicts the first half.

When I said "It's not another dongle" I meant that if you buy a dongle with two ports, you can use it instead of Apple's dongle, not in addition to.

...that begs the question, why not just do that in the first place though?

Ah yes, the double dongle. The kind of elegant, problem-solving design I expect from Apple.

Designed in California.

I laughed, because so many decisions in California are based on compromise.

They shipped with a double firewire/USB cord for one of the iPod generations!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6FT-Genuine-Apple-iPod-Dual-USB-Fire...

So if the lightning to audio dongle is $9, whats the double dongle gonna be? $20? $30?

You can do that with the lightning dock, it has a 3.5mm out and lightning input for power.

Yes, for $39.

So you can't listen with the new EarPods with Lightning connector while charging with the Lightning dock.

I'm getting a lot of mixed messages from Apple here...

Yea, that does suck.

Hopefully with the improved power features of the new CPU, the amount of time when you want to simultaneously listen and charge is reduced.

Don't need to. iPhone 7 gets way better battery life than any other iPhone before.

(Sarcasm)

Who will carry that with them?

People carrying headphones around id imagine

Just leave it connected to your headphones.

See here is the crux of the issue

I use my headphones for:

-Listening to the environment while PC Gaming using a Windows PC

-Listening to records using my stereo

-Listening to music while working on my Macbook Pro

-Listening to music while being mobile w/ iPhone 6

-Listening to music while driving in my car (audio jack works faster with less interruptions then USB)

The big win of 3.3mm audio jack is they work with all these different systems and use-cases. There is nothing to lose, nothing to think about. Plug and Play. Dead simple. Dumb analog.

Now to fully cover all my uses cases I have 2 more things to carry around with me full time, and not lose. Not a simplification, buying a Nexus. Steve Jobs is dead.

What's needed for your situation is a little doo-dad that tethers the dongle to your headphones, so you can disconnect it freely and not lose it.

No, he should tape the adapter to the phone, using silver duct tape.

Or a simple analog jack would work too.

Well there won't be an analog jack on the iPhone 7, so that's not a solution.

A little dogbone shaped white silicone thing would look a lot nicer than duct tape.

I think you already realize both of those things.

For the record, I was being facetious on purpose to show how ridiculous this is.

But more to your point, the adapter would belong with the phone not with the headphones. There are potentially N number of headphones, and one phone for which the adapter will be used. So the adapter being carried with the phone instead of N adapters for N headsets makes more sense.

Kind of like a MacCozy for the magsafe v1/v2 adapter? I can tell you that's a very solid product.

Apple is enabling a vibrant 3rd party accessory market ;)

100% agree. I carry a pair of Apple earbuds with me to use interchangeably with my phone and my Mac laptop. The new lightning headphones that come in the box won't be compatible with my laptop, so I'll either need to use the old earbuds with a phone adapter or the new earbuds with a laptop adapter or I need to carry around both sets of earbuds with me.

That said, their vision for the world to go 100% wireless is absolutely right. However, I don't think their execution is great in this area. Their AirPods don't hold a long enough charge quite yet and they are highly susceptible to being lost. Also, while I think Bluetooth has many many problems, I wish Apple spent time improving that standard instead of introducing their own standard.

The AirPods are bluetooth. I think that has been a point of confusion. Also, 5 hrs may not seem like much but 24 hours w/ the case is a lot more than comparable bluetooth earbuds. And I really love the idea of a battery case: extend battery life, no connector on headphones, keeping them in the case may make it harder to lose them.

Thanks for clarifying the point about the bluetooth - this definitely got buried for me. The case is a good stopgap for improving battery life, but I still think they need to last 10 hours on a single charge to be really useful. For instance, 5 hours won't be enough for a plane trip if you include the time it takes to get to the airport/arrive at your destination. If they can just last a little bit longer, I'd be more on board with the change.

While that's unfortunate for you, I'd be willing to bet most iphone consumers just use the included earbuds for their phone, and don't really have any other use for headphones. Keep in mind that you, and even most HN readers, are not necessarily examples of the average iphone consumers.

A valid point, but nonetheless owning a second pair of ear buds is not a high bar. Ear buds are sold by nearly every corner gas station, grocery store, and 711. Typically for <$20 regardless of region.

The primary issue is interchangeability. In the event you leave your earbuds at home. Borrowing a friend's, or purchasing an additional set is a simple. This is nolonger a simple solution.

Except it's still a simple solution for two reasons: 1) if you get the phone you get an adapter to let you use all 3.5mm headphones 2) many many many other people will have the same phone, so you'll be able to borrow their headphones.

You're an edge case. Apple doesn't care.

I generally need to charge while listening though.

I sure hope they don't force their customers into an extra 100+$.

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