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...but we also all know how untrue and unhealthy that attitude is. 'murica.

And that's just one of the many problems with the SF startup scene.

Many other corps in many other parts of the US are perfectly compatible with what was described.

I would not say this is an accurate view of most US jobs. I have yet to have a job that was not flexible with working hours or working location.

Every single job across industries that I have ever worked at (and i've only worked in the US) has been inflexible on hours and location.

It's almost as if... different people have different experiences at different companies... as if, dare I say it, not all people and companies are the same?

Yep, that was my point.

Right, but the person you replied to was giving the counterfactual that not all jobs are like that. It didn't need to be rebutted; they were not instead stating that ALL jobs are flexible, just pointing out not all AREN'T.

Actually, the argument was that "most" jobs in the US are flexible on hours. I really doubt that's true, given that there's a good many minimum-wage or close-to-minimum-wage jobs out there, and a lot of traditional 9-5 office jobs, and the US still has factories and lots of other companies which need to run to a schedule. And the idea that a single person could state that "most" jobs are anything based on personal experience is probably incorrect.

Thank you.

Same here. All my employers have been totally inflexible on hours and location. It's all ass-in-seat, 8-5 or 9-6, kind of work. I dream of being able to do what others describe here: when I get tired, take a nap, have lunch with my kids everyday, etc... always get shit done, but just also be able to adapt work to fit the life I want more precisely.

The reference was to start up jobs(which I and others have disagreed with the OPs statement) as opposed to "most" jobs.

I want to second this. At my current job, many people WFH or WFHotel or WFCar (voice only). Most of my silicon valley customers do this too.

In a previous life, I was chained to the desk 8-5 with lunch breaks - but that's one of the reasons I left.

A startup is a temporary organization searching for a repeatable and scalable business model. Speed and agility are your only advantages. Working all the time is practically essential for most startups. Are we seriously saying that startups should be comfortable 9 to 5 jobs? There are hundreds of millions of jobs out there that will give you that lifestyle, why complain about that exception where it is actually sensible? Or have we repurposed the word "startup" to mean small business?

> Speed and agility are your only advantages.

Are you sure? Having experts in a given field isn't an advantage to look for? The mere fact that you're able to turn on a dime if necessary without having to reorganise thousands of employees and projects towards your new goal?

If your definition of "startup" includes "doing things that literally anybody else with enough money could do" and "trying to establish a monopoly at all costs", speed and agility are things you need. Unfortunately, that's the definition that most of SV seem to use. But if you're trying to push boundaries and do something new with experts in your chosen field? Not so much.

Really depends on how much distance that expertise leaves between you and your competition. If it's enough of a barrier to entry, then yes you have time, otherwise you better be going fast. A better funded competitor might Uber you after that first MVP has been derisked.

The advantages of a 9 to 5 job are that:

1) It gives you time to reflect on whether the direction you are going makes sense and is aligned with others.

2) It gives you time to sleep and exercise, which makes you more focused and effective at work.

3) It removes the illusion that you can ignore planning/reflection and just pour more hours into something in order to make it successful.

4) If you are demanding people work really bad hours as a matter of course, then that scares experienced hands away. Given that most employees won't see any payout from an exit, those with experience will demand to be paid in cash and will demand that much more if you expect long hours.

> It removes the illusion that you can ignore planning/reflection and just pour more hours into something in order to make it successful.

It took me too many years in the industry to figure this out. When I'm in "get it done" mode spanning consecutive long days, I do not think calmly or clearly enough to recognize the opportunities along the way that I could have taken to achieve my goal faster/better. Since realizing this, I cannot count how many times I have come in the next morning with new and better ideas and approaches after reflecting on the previous day's sprint during my own, calm, personal time.

> Working all the time is practically essential for most startups.

No wonder why almost all of them go straight into the wall, head down.

> where ever second you're not working...

More lile, every second you are not at your desk appearing to work. I've seen this in established companies in the US too, so it's not exclusive to startups

As an american who works just as he does, and have for roughly 10 years, this is simply not true.

Working down to the bone, "every second", will lead to serious burn out. Your mental health suffers, as do your relationships.

I won't make any assumptions about who you are or how you work, but I tend to see this mindset from new blood who wants to get the edge over others. I understand this mindset, as it's very productive - like a short sprint - but it's not sustainable.

If you want to last the whole race, you need to pace yourself.

> As an american who works just as he does, and have for roughly 10 years, this is simply not true.

For you. I worked remotely for an American consulting company a while back and you were expected to be reachable during the business hours and respond in less than 30 minutes. If you missed that window more than once, that number shrank to 10 minutes. The turnover rate was high.

I agree with everything you're saying, but not all remote employers agree with us.

> "Once in a while I would take the phone out of my pocket and give quick answers on Slack, but most of my time I enjoyed what is the beginning of autumn."

As long as you reply in your 30 minute deadline, i dont see how you still can't do what he's doing. I have my phone on me all the time and if there's an emergency or some sort of window where i must reply, i hop on the phone or go back to the desk and get it done.

That said, my reply wasn't intended to be a blanket statement of all remote workers.

One example of where it doesn't work is at U-Haul. A lot of uhaul customer service is people sitting at home glued to their computers, waiting for calls. There is no 30 minute window there.

My point was that it's not as impossible as the comment author made it seem. A balance between "riding in the park" and "answering my client within 30 minutes" is possible here.

Odd. I work from home and have for 3 years now. I'm reachable in a second. Because I have my ass at my desk working except when I'm at lunch. 30 minutes is a deplorable standard, 10 minutes is simply unacceptable. No standard should be necessary. If I were managing those groups and I needed a standard: I'd find new employees.

While on one hand I am strongly against employee-abuse and working over an 8-hour day: I guarantee my employer that I'm available near-instantly for 8 hours straight (barring lunch) and I have my head down working during that time. Then I disconnect, and go love my family.

As such, my employer trusts me and if I ever did happen to disappear off on a bike into the forest they have no concerns I wouldn't handle my work. I call it an "honest 8", so they are guaranteed to get what they pay for with no concerns of me screwing off, and everyone is always on the same page.

All that said, I do not work well with mediocre people who don't try hard in everything they do, and put pride into their work. So I might be an oddball in the US, and fit in better with a less abusive, but more orderly, stringent society like Germany. Where coincidentally, most of my family came from to begin with so it may just be a difference in cultural norms passed down.

It depends on the expectations of the employer. This stuff is usually stated on remote job listings (though admittedly jobs that start as "choose your own hours" somehow transition to "work between 9 and 5 Pacific time" too frequently). There are remote employers that expect you to be continually available for instant comms all day, part of the day, or none of the day (i.e., unscheduled instant comms are non-mandatory). The latter is obviously ideal but also the most rare.

I don't agree at all. The American startup has lots of time for ping pong, foosball or hanging out in a chill out/game room, or a social with beers after an all hands weekly meeting. Also flex work hours are pretty common in my experience and lots of startup tout those as a perk.

What's not compatible? He says he's getting the work done. I work exactly like he does for an American company in the bay area and it works out extremely well. Unless you have a deadline that day, I don't see what difference it makes whether you finish the project at 5pm or 7pm or 11pm as long as you get your tasks for the day done. Or are you just assuming that he's not putting in as much work because he's taking a break and isn't American?