Apple in talks with luxury carmaker McLaren | Hacker News Reader

Apple in talks with luxury carmaker McLaren

ft.com

150 pointsucha127 comments

Apple has lots of cash in accounts outside the U.S. that it can't/won't repatriate for tax reasons. They want to get into the car space. McLaren (from this not-a-car-guy-perspective) seems to have a similar corporate cultural ethos to Apple, plus they are English and therefore fewer language/cultural issues integrating.

Basically, I'd suspect half the reason that Apple is going this route because it's quicker and cheaper to use that overseas cash to acquire experience than it is to try to build it internally.

Along with the corporate cultural ethos (Ron Dennis is very similar to Steve Jobs in his attention to detail and demands of his company), McLaren has a strong engineering culture and "consults" for many other companies. I agree it would be a good "culture fit".

McLaren also consults and does R&D for the British Olympic cycling team, so it's not just cars we're talking about. In fact, I'd imagine the world class materials research and manufacturing that McLaren does is of massive interest to Apple (carbon fiber all the things!)

Can you explain their contribution? In the Rio Olympics the british velodrome team used Cervelo bikes like every other top team.

https://www.cervelo.com

https://www.cervelo.com/en-ca/races-and-athletes/british-cyc...

> Can you explain their contribution

On the materials side there are things such as the resin the British team coats the bikes in is applied and manufactured by McLaren.

I think the greatest contribution is probably the data analysis they provide the team during the events (for example, the british team bring their own cameras, sensors on everything that moves, etc.) . More info: http://www.mclaren.com/appliedtechnologies/case-study/uk-spo...

Company spokesperson: "Oh no, we didn't design or manufacture the advanced ultra light weight winning bikes - we made the resin and sensors."

Next thing we'll hear about how they helped design the athlete's antiperspirant.

Marginal Gains. (I'm not sure what your point is.)

What a bizarre, forthright anti-McLaren angle you're taking in this thread.

Sensors

http://www.mclaren.com/appliedtechnologies/case-study/uk-spo...

"A good example is our collaboration with Team GB cyclists. Drawing on our design expertise, we created sensor hardware to be fitted within bike frames. A non-GPS positioning system was created (GPS being unreliable inside velodromes) and bespoke data analysis software developed to monitor speed, power, cadence and other valuable metrics."

Here is a Bloomberg article talking about their data analysis consulting: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-10-02/mclaren-us...

Mclaren also collaborated with Specialized on the development of the S-Works Venge bike.

http://venge.specialized.com/#/sworks-mclaren-venge/working-...

And the new Roubaix which came out this month.

According to UCI regulations, all equipment used in races must be available for sale on the market, so in theory, they don't have better bicycles.

However, chances are Cervelo only manages to deliver their newest designs to British cycling in time for important races.

The scenario likely is somewhat like this: Cervelo develops new bikes in cooperation with British cycling, as that gives them a rich sponsor willing to pay for experimental designs.

Also, bikes like these bikes are custom sized to their rider, and making one takes lots of time.

British cycling doesn't have any incentive to finalize their design months before the Olympics because that would give Cervelo time to make bikes for the competition, and would rob them of time in which they could try out yet another bike.

So yes, others can order those bikes, but chances are they cannot get them delivered in time.

Also, chances are that British cycling knows better what kind of bike they want. Not everybody has the resources to evaluate zillions of minute variations on a bike frame in a wind tunnel.

(Some background info at http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/olympics/british-... (2012))

> Also, bikes like these bikes are custom sized to their rider, and making one takes lots of time.

CF vacuum resin infusion layup (which I assume they're doing) is pretty fast, I can't see how making a complete bike from scratch would take more than two days if all the parts are in stock.

(That doesn't mean they don't have long wait times still.)

>...Cervelo bikes like every other top team.

Not true. There was actually quite a bit of variety. The French (patriotically) used Look bikes for Example.

I only know this because Barry Bonds rides a $20k McLaren Tarmac:

https://www.strava.com/athletes/8976

>> English and therefore fewer language/cultural issues integrating.

What? You do know iPhone is manufactured in China.

Certainly (and Brazil, too, right?). But most of the design, both software and hardware, is done in the U.S. by primarily english speaking teams. If Apple is buying McLaren, they aren't buying McLaren to make the cars, not at the scale McLaren produces versus what Apple's intent has to be. They're buying them for the knowledge of how to use not-exactly-standard materials to design and fabricate cars.

Foxconn, as it is currently constituted, isn't going to be making Apple cars.

> Foxconn, as it is currently constituted, isn't going to be making Apple cars.

Apple EV is a few years away. Foxconn is certainly not standing still in this few years. A lot of things can happen, including Foxconn pivoting to manufacturing high-end EVs. [0][1] You just never know!

[0]: http://gas2.org/2014/09/04/foxconn-building-814-million-batt...

[1]: http://www.allchinatech.com/tencent-and-foxconns-smart-ev-co...

Right, I should have been more clear in how I made that last statement. Let me try again.

"Foxconn, as it is currently constituted, is not in a position to be assisting Apple with the design process that goes into making a car."

I have no doubt that Foxconn would happily go through the expenditures and pain to contract with Apple to build an EV.

McLaren make about as many cars in a year as Ford makes in an hour. They are not who I'd look to as a partner with experience at mass producing cars. However they may be a good partner if Apple wants to make something targeted higher, e.g. people who might be looking at a Tesla.

The cheapest McLaren is about 150% of the price of the most expensive expensive Tesla. McLaren competes with companies like Ferrari and Lamborghini not Tesla.

Yeah it doesn't even make sense from the "competing with Tesla" standpoint. I don't understand what Apple is hoping to gain from this.

McLaren said in a statement to The Verge that the company "is not in discussion with Apple in respect of any potential investment".

http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/21/13000666/apple-mclaren-acq...

The way corporate PR works, that could mean the discussions are over and it's a done deal.

It could also mean that the discussions are ongoing but McLaren doesn't want to lose their bargaining power by admitting the possibility. Their PR is under no obligation to be 100% honest and won't be if it is not in the company's financial interest.

Or they are splitting hairs between "investment" and "acquisition".

Or it could be that Apple isn't looking to "invest" but rather to completely take over or even just buy some of their tech.

Is it still an "investment" if Apple owns 100% of the stock?

is McLaren public? If so, having a false PR can be slightly illegal in some jurisdictions

McLaren is privately held.

BTW, I'm curious which jurisdictions you're referring to.

or that the discussions are over and it's not going to happen.

A company (or group of executives) that blatantly lies to the media risks damaging it's own credibility. In my experience, statements like this are usually technically correct, though sometimes misleading in spirit.

Gordon Murray designs some pretty atypical vehicles, from the McLaren F1 to the T.25 or T.27 microcars, to the recent shippable truck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_F1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.25

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Vehicle_Trust

So the T.25 will be the iPod shuffle of electric cars? Or will they make the F1 their Apple Watch? Or maybe both?

> Gordon Murray designs some pretty atypical vehicles

You don't say! One thing is for sure: he really, really, really loves the idea of a central driving position. All the cars you mentioned have the driver sit smack bang in the middle.

It's gotta be cheaper to make one car that can be driven on either side of the road than make a car for the UK and then another one for the rest of the world.

Japan and Aus(/NZ?) are also in that minor group!

An excellent correction. I knew there were more but I was too lazy to look them up.

Not mention India (population 1.3 billion). All in all one third of the world drives on the left. I read somewhere that a lot of major manufacturers make about 50% of each.

The OX flat-pack truck (Global Vehicle Trust designed) is pretty amazing and was on HN recently.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12440612

Wouldn't be surprised if it had more to do with their expertise with carbon fibre than anything else. You're not going to find anyone with more expertise with that material than F1 teams.

I suspect this too. I remember a top notch cycling company that produced carbon components working with Apple too for the same reason.

My Google-fu failed me though, I could not find a reference to it and it was 5-7 years ago.

Pagani have a separate company dedicated to carbon composite manufacturing and consulting - they came up with the "carbotanium" bonded carbon composites and titanium used in the Huayra:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbotanium

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagani_Huayra

Pagani make McLaren look mass market!

Carbotanium is my favorite canobtanium.

I wonder what McLaren can achieve when it puts its mind to reducing production costs?

They've said before that they have proprietary techniques that allow them to produce the CF for their road cars at scale more affordably.

Combine this with Tesla's acquisition of CF expertise, and I would wager that more CF is going to be used in electric vehicles in the near future, providing even greater range.

Bravo man, bravo.

Pagani cars also look like they've been designed by 11 year old boys on a sugar-high.

That's a bad thing? :-)

Obviously; anyone with standards prefers cars designed by 16 years olds on cough syrup high.

Not necessarily, but very few people can pull off THAT level ostentatiousness and keep a straight face.

I am glad we live in a world where such things can exist, but I wouldn't own one even if it were free.

people who drive around in cars like that don't have to keep a straight face. they're laughing all the way to the bank.

Maybe. Note that these kinds of composites are exceedingly common these days.

Like "I can buy it online from amazon.com" common for some and "random online metals shop" for others.

Now certainly, not what Apple's gonna do, but more in the point of "there's a very very large set of companies with large amounts of expertise in this". I have pretty strong doubts you'd go to mclaren for it.

The same can be said for aluminum, but still Apple is known for doing some of the best work in the world with the material.

Apple's cases are nice, but "the best work in the world with [aluminum]" is a real stretch. They're not complicated or high precision, they're computer cases.

There are people making turbines with aluminum, and medical equipment, and machine parts that are accurate to an order of magnitude more than Apple's pretty phone case.

You can buy a lot of materials, but knowing how to manufacturer with them is a different skill. BMW has more experience with carbon in automobiles, but that's a whole other level of acquisition.

McLaren built an entire car out of carbon fiber. Good luck figuring that out from your Amazon purchases.

https://www.wired.com/2016/06/mclarens-675lt-supercar-someho...

BMW, McLaren and friends probably simply buy all the carbon fiber they use from Toray. Just like Boeing do.

If McLaren has some production, it's probably not more than a pilot plant.

It's not actually producing carbon fiber that is the secret sauce.

BMW co-owns a company called SGL Automotive Carbon Fibers.

Material availability isn't really the issue, although supply is still very constrained due to the dominance of the aerospace industry.

The real issue is expertise. High performance composite manufacturing techniques are jealously-guarded trade secrets. The amount of information in the public domain is really very limited.

I suspect this has to do with their battery expertise as much as anything else. If Apple is looking to get into the Electric car game, the McLaren would be an especially good acquisition.

So long as money is no object, you're probably right.

Apple reportedly took great interest in BMWs carbon fibre mass production processes during the early stages of Project Titan, when Apple was rumoured to be courting BMW for a potential partnership.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/209812-how-bmw-weaves-bak...

I'm not sure what use Apple would potentially have for carbon fibre anything outside of mass production.

Edit:

http://jalopnik.com/apple-is-definitely-not-buying-mclaren-m...

Perhaps next year's iPhone. I've been thinking about how they can go to wireless charging without looking cheap. I think carbon fiber could be a decent replacement for the metal.

All the rumors so far point to a glass-backed body for the next iPhone.

And if they needed a partnership with McLaren for anything materials-related, I'd imagine it's too late for any product next year.

CF is conductive last time I checked

here's a TC link https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/21/apple-is-in-talks-with-mcl...

btw, "The FT thinks this acquisition could cost between $1.3 billion and $2 billion"

anyone else thinking "wow, that's actually cheap"?

It's not necessarily cheap for a small, bespoke company that loses money, but this would be money that Apple could find in its Irish subsidiary's couch cushions and they bring a lot of engineering expertise that could be applied outside of automotives especially with aluminum and carbon fiber.

If I'm Apple then maybe I do it just because Jony Ive would think it was cool? haha

McLaren Technology group (the main parent) and McLaren Automotive are making a profit though. Yes they aren't doing all that well but still actually making money. Though hard to say what kind of a black hole the racing side (Formula 1) is at the moment for the company with the rather terrible results in the last few years.

Yeah, I knew McLaren Automotive wasn't driving profit at the moment (and cars are capital intensive), but to think such a brand with all of the resources that they have is worth half a Beats does shock me a little bit.

Considering the amount of cash they have (and be interesting to see which locale they'd take it from), would say it's almost a no-brainer to acquire a foothold in the market with such prestige, awesome tech and talent. Plus, their respective histories with regard to secrecy and alignment of brands would make sense.

Is half a Beats just one Beat?

One Upbeat.

Valuation with this type of company would be based on the traditional 3-4x revenue - in which case it's right on the money.

If they announced that they would accept payment in Bitcoin for their cars, or installed a dashboard camera with a social media sharing button, their valuation would instantly triple.

- Add refcontrol[1] for Firefox, or some alternative for Chrome.

- RefControl > Options > Add Site

- Enter site as www.ft.com and Action as https://www.google.com

You can also use this trick for wsj.com and probably a few other sites.

1. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/refcontrol/

Maybe they want to make a laptop that opens like ^o^ and not like /o\

not enough jokes on HN, imo. :)

No, a serious tone is what keeps us from being Reddit

We have some cheeky humor here every now and then and my personal opinion is that it's completely fine, but it's usually made in tandem with a serious reply :)

As John Cleese pointed out (IIRC, as a followup to him making a brilliantly funny and loving eulogy to Graham Chapman - "Good riddance to him, the freeloading bastard, I hope he fries"), you can be serious without being solemn.

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7487081

You certainly can. Far more often what occurs on the internet is that people are jokey and disruptive without bothering to be brilliantly funny, and we don't need much of that here at all.

If that is the only thing, then HN is in deep trouble.

Yes, we are all very, very important and doing very, very important and serious things. Humor has no place in human culture. Very, very important.

I don't know about you. But me and JBreefer are pretty important people. I for one, provides a nearly 100 mosquitoes every day with vital nutrients from my blood. I don't know what the poor things will do without me.

Pretty sure, (judging by how serious JBreefer is, and how he starts the comment by an emphatic "No"), that he also act as a corner stone of some similar establishment....

If this is about a new line of baby strollers, I am really interested :)

(TIL they are two different companies, where I always thought it's a brilliant marketing idea)

Man I bet it would be fun to be in the M&A/strategy group at Apple.

"McLaren produced 1654 vehicles last year."

If they're looking to use them for production, it seems like they may be following the early-days Tesla model for volume of vehicle production:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster#Production

No offense, but hand-building supercars is not at all like starting up a large scale automotive firm. Yes, Tesla was hand building roadsters early on, but the intent (and the market) was completely different.

I always expected that Apple would make an automotive acquisition but I assumed it would be Lotus Cars.

It'll be interesting to see whether the deal (assuming to goes through) includes the F1 team.

Wow. Just wow. If this happens, the game has just changed.

Ron Dennis and Tim Cook. If you replaced Tim Cook's name with anyone else, I wouldn't believe it could ever work. Tim Cook though has already shown how awesome he can work with a manically focused leader driving vision and strategy. All of the sliding of Apple's quality since Job's passing, ceased in one brilliant strategic move.

Bravo Tim Cook, bravo. I'd be shocked if Elon Musk didn't pee himself just a wee bit after hearing this news.

Can you name one Apple product that has decreased in quality since Steve passed? Apple's products today are of higher quality than they've ever been.

Can you honestly say Apple products "just work" anymore?

My iPhone I would crash when writing long emails in Japanese and took shitty pictures, my iPhone 6 writes emails in all languages and takes great pictures.

I would choose an iPhone 6 over any Jobs era phone.

Yes, I have virtually no issues ever with any of my Apple products, including ones I use hard and have done so for years.

Well the Mac has been pretty much abandoned:

http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac

Your link shows new Macbooks were released less than six months ago and iMacs less than a year ago.

The only things there more than two years old are the MBP non-Retina, which is essentially an obsolete line, and the Mac pro, which Apple has never seemed massively invested in.

You mentioned the first two on the list, why not the rest? Oh... right... including those paints a very different picture:

Retina MacBook Pro: 491 days since last release

Mac Pro: 1007 days since last release

Macbook Pro: 1563 days since last release

Mac Mini: 706 days since last release

Macbook Air: 562 days since last release

To be fair, the non-retina Macbook Pro and Macbook Air should be removed from the list as their place in the product line is now occupied by the Retina Macbook Pro and Macbook respectively.

That still leaves us with some pretty major product lines looking quite neglected.

> You mentioned the first two on the list, why not the rest?

Huh? I mentioned the Macbook Pro and Mac Pro. All the others fall in my "less than two years old" segment.

Retina MacBook Pro... yes, under two years. But lets see, periods between last updates, 247, 251, 280, 294. Average, 268. Current, 491. Nearly twice that.

Similar with the iMac - at 344, already beyond the average (which was only pulled way out of whack by one 577 day refresh cycle, otherwise it would have been in the 270 day range.

MacBook Air. Average of 350 days, now seven months more...

Mac Mini, similar.

There isn't any way that you can spin this in a way that says Apple isn't neglecting the Mac.

I feel really happy for all those high end Mac users stuck with the Apple Garbage Can.

You're right, they seem entirely disinterested. They tossed it over the fence three years ago.

And to rub salt in the wound they still charge the same price now as the did at launch for Ivy Bridge processors!

But on the other hand, production volume of the Apple Watch was absolutely abysmal while Steve Jobs was alive.

Presumably this has been leaked to draw out competitive bids.

Apple has approached McLaren Technology Group, the British supercar engineer and Formula One team owner, about a potential acquisition, in the clearest sign yet that the iPhone maker is seeking to transform the automotive industry.

The California technology group, which has been working on a self-driving electric vehicle for more than two years, is considering a full takeover of McLaren or a strategic investment, according to three people briefed on the negotiations who said talks started several months ago.

A tie-up with McLaren, whose expertise ranges from automotive engineering and on-board computer systems to novel chassis materials such as carbon fibre and aluminium, could accelerate Apple’s secretive automotive project.

Apple and McLaren declined to comment.

The lossmaking automotive group was likely to be valued at between £1bn and £1.5bn, the people said, adding that it was not clear a deal would be done.

That would make it Apple’s biggest acquisition since the $3bn purchase of Beats Electronics, the audio group founded by Dr Dre and Jimmy Iovine, in 2014.

Earlier this year, Apple invested $1bn in Didi Chuxing, the Chinese ride-hailing company. That deal was Apple’s largest equity investment to date, as chief executive Tim Cook gradually breaks with the Silicon Valley company’s longstanding aversion to large deals.

McLaren produces luxury sports cars that can cost as much as $1m apiece and owns an advanced technologies group, as well as the eponymous Formula One racing team. The owners of McLaren Technology control 80 per cent of McLaren Automotive. It produced 1,654 vehicles last year, generating revenues of £450m, and has pledged to invest £1bn in the next six years on research and development.

McLaren Technology reported revenues of £265m and pre-tax losses of £22.6m in 2014, its last published accounts. It is owned by Ron Dennis, its chairman, Mansour Ojjeh, and Mumtalakat, Bahrain's sovereign wealth fund.

Apple’s interest in the Woking-based company centres on its technology, engineering prowess and patent portfolio, according to people briefed on the talks. However, those people cautioned that it was unclear if a deal would go ahead following a recent shift in Apple’s car strategy.

Since 2014, Apple has built up a team of hundreds of engineers and designers to work on the electric car venture, including recruits from companies such as Tesla and Mercedes-Benz. Its original team leader, Steve Zadesky, left earlier this year, and Apple veteran Bob Mansfield took over the project.

In recent weeks, dozens of employees have departed, people familiar with the changes have said, as Mr Mansfield refocuses Apple’s efforts on the underlying systems that would power a self-driving car rather than building an electrical vehicle itself.

Despite recent reports of those changes, some Apple analysts have questioned whether the company would depart from its traditional strategy of controlling both the hardware and software in its products.

Some investors have hoped that Apple would make a move on Tesla, the Silicon Valley electric carmaker led by Elon Musk. At its annual meeting last year, Apple shareholders peppered chief executive Tim Cook with questions about whether he planned to acquire Tesla, which he carefully sidestepped.

Mr Cook has never publicly acknowledged Apple’s automotive project, but many of its top executives are car enthusiasts. Phil Schiller, Apple’s marketing chief, is said to own a McLaren, and Eddy Cue, its services head, sits on the board of Ferrari, while top designer Sir Jonathan Ive has expressed his fondness for Bentleys and Aston Martins.

Hopefully this doesn't result in us getting McLaren Macbooks, a la Ferrari laptops (http://www.pcworld.com/article/186742/acer_ferrari_one_revie...).

As a huge Formula 1 fan, this would be very exciting! Pending Apple would keep McLaren in Formula 1. It would bring a huge amount of money to the sport along with another team that can compete at the R&D level of Mercedes and Ferrari.

Does anyone have a sense of how much legacy automotive technology is valuable in bringing a new electric vehicle to market?

The chassis on a Tesla looks like an aluminum box... quite unlike a typical car chassis.

I imagine it's the brand name of McLaren, and their engineering and design culture that is what makes this an attractive acquisition.

Handling, balance, engineering for structural rigidity, materials science, network effects (knowing who and how to deal with), aerodynamics, etc.

Cars aren't built by standalone coach builders and haven't been for decades (unless you're Morgan... :) ). Relationships with a large number of third parties are likely par for the course these days.

Just because the chassis is different doesn't mean the rest of the system gets thrown out the window (significantly changed, perhaps, but I spect there's a lot of knowledge that's still in play).

"Atypical" isn't atypical to McLaren: http://www.motortrend.com/news/mclaren-four-new-models/#2012...

Aluminum monocoque construction has been done for production performance cars by various makes for better than twenty years now. Audi, Honda, Ferrari etc.

I wonder where people get this idea that 100+ years of automotive engineering know-how is somehow invalidated by powering the car w/ a battery. "Legacy" indeed.

Well, I'd think that in terms of the overall complexity of the device, there would be a complexity ratio of roughly:

100:10:1 for gasoline engine: suspension: everything else.

Complexity as defined as the number of discrete components, sure. Complexity as measured as engineering man-hours, I'm not so sure.

The time that body engineers spend on FEA, CFD, tooling & welding design, paint & trim, finishing...even without a new engine and transmission, there's reasons why a new vehicle is a ten-figure outlay.

McLaren has the istream concept, which is about making cars out of cheap but very light and stiff flat composite plates.

McLaren makes beautiful machines.

This has to be a total rumor. There's absolutely zero reason for Apple to buy the whole car company. I could see them buying a smaller manufacturer, but McLaren? Really? I just don't see it.

There are smaller manufacturers than McLaren?

McLauren is one of the companies that builds good prototype cars for others. If Apple wants to fool around in the car space, McLauren can build them some demos.

Oh, should we expect aggressive patent trolling to spill into car making now? While Tesla are opening up their patents, guess what Apple will do.

First order of business: replace the fuel filling hole with a proprietary interface.

Carbon fiber MacBooks?

iOS based IRIS?

Paywalled.

Updated: click "WEB" under the article.

click "WEB" under the article.

Nice! When did this feature come out?

Over a year ago.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10223645

Clock web below the topic title, then click the first result.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com