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Comment by solson | Hacker News Reader

This is complete bullshit.

As a moderately anxious person I have a completely different internal experience on an American subway vs. one in Tokyo. I have almost no anxiety in Tokyo. Why? it is one of the safest big cities in the world. Theft, terrorism, assault, and general creepiness are almost non-existent and everyone knows it and behaves accordingly.

In contrast, you have to be much more aware on American mass transit to avoid problems. American mass transit is far more dangerous than in Tokyo and it is almost instantly apparent to anyone paying attention. You'd be a fool not have situational awareness on an American subway because there is a higher probability of personal harm.

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> general creepiness almost non-existent

If you're a guy, maybe.

> In contrast, you have to be much more aware on American mass transit to avoid problems.

Okay, but does that have to translate into anxiousness? Paying attention to things, even looking out for potential risks, doesn't have to feel negative IMHO.

Consider the difference between "hmm, that guy seems to be on drugs and could be armed, I wonder if I'll only get wounded, or if he'll actually kill me" and thinking, as you slightly shift position to something more useful while pretending to not notice the person you're bracing yourself for: "okay, so when this guy thinks he's attacking me from behind, as I watch his reflection in the window, and just before I ram my heel into his nutsack with the force of a thousand subway trains: which one of these people, who will all no doubt fawn over my heroic move and rush over to see if I'm okay, will I grin at, look deeply in the eye and ask out for dinner?".

It's the same situation, just day dreaming near an unarmed guy who won't do anything; but one actually gives you energy, the other drains it, for no purpose. Of course the example is exaggerated, but still, being scared doesn't help you at all, some might even say that's exactly what would attract an evildoer, like blood in the water attracts piranhas. They want victims, not challenges.

IMHO anxiety isn't a defense mechanism, it's a leak, an inefficiency. I don't know if the word comes from "angst", but fear and angst are two very different things. That is, one is a thing, the other is just a black hole which can swallow up all sorts of things. I don't mean this in a finger waggling kind of way, but more in a "you deserve even better" sort of way. I have sympathy for anxious people, but not for anxiety, I think it's a poison.

All the best for you and all, if nothing else, take it in that spirit. (I'm correct though :P)

> IMHO anxiety isn't a defense mechanism, it's a leak, an inefficiency.

Given the association of anxiety with "worrier" genes and further association of those with higher cognitive capacity, as well as the possibility that worrying about a thing makes it easier to remember, I find it highly likely that it's simply the expression of a cognitive style, not even a defense mechanism. The defense mechanism is likely to be depression.

Anxiety needs to be assessed for its full benefit across the board, not merely whether or not it's obviously productive in a given, often artificial, situation. For one, it's an emotion, emotions are a method of direct informational processing and are meant to modify your behavior among other things.

The purpose of anxiety around someone that could harm you may be to generate a negative association with the area/situation/certain persons so that you stop going there/creating that situation/conversing with those persons. Whereas a non-anxious person would be much better at handling these situations but could also end up in them too often. For the most part, "warriors" are more popular in society and media, so it's not too surprising that their style of disposition is considered normal and the other is considered a disorder.

But being able to hold things in your head for a while (what leads to anxiety) is fairly useful and seems rather common among people who have a lot of responsibilities, especially mental ones, and need to keep track of and plan a lot of things. On the other hand, I met people who have very little anxiety, but are really poor at planning, remembering schedules, etc., because the information leaves their brain really quickly. Pick your poison, I guess, but I'm at least familiar with mine.

The flawed assumption here perhaps is that humans were meant to be happy.

> The flawed assumption here perhaps is that humans were meant to be happy.

For starters, it's using the word "anxiety" for completely different things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiety

> Anxiety is an emotion characterized by an unpleasant state of inner turmoil, often accompanied by nervous behavior, such as pacing back and forth, somatic complaints, and rumination. It is the subjectively unpleasant feelings of dread over anticipated events, such as the feeling of imminent death. Anxiety is not the same as fear, which is a response to a real or perceived immediate threat, whereas anxiety is the expectation of future threat. Anxiety is a feeling of fear, uneasiness, and worry, usually generalized and unfocused as an overreaction to a situation that is only subjectively seen as menacing. It is often accompanied by muscular tension, restlessness, fatigue and problems in concentration. Anxiety can be appropriate, but when experienced regularly the individual may suffer from an anxiety disorder.

And if anything, I'd say humans are happier when they are productive in a way. There is a difference between pacing back and forth because you're in deep thought, and between pacing back and forth just to release stress.

> The purpose of anxiety around someone that could harm you may be to generate a negative association with the area/situation/certain persons

So does simply noticing it. What noticing it doesn't necessarily do is cloud your judgement, emit fear smell both figuratively and literally, worsen your health, and a bunch of other things.

You're not "either a warrior or a thinker", I see no basis for that dichotomy. There is being confident, and there is being intelligent, there is having empathy, and there is being responsible to your best abilities -- and they're all pretty much orthogonal.

> For the most part, "warriors" are more popular in society and media, so it's not too surprising that their style of disposition is considered normal and the other is considered a disorder.

For me it's simply whether it's goal-oriented or going in circles. If something worries you and you consider the trade-offs you're willing to make to make you less worried, that's not anxiety, that's doing something. Eating your fingernails isn't really, or sweating like crazy. Stuff like that achieves nothing, it's not helping with thinking or paying attention.

> Don't worry about the future. Or worry, but know that worrying is as effective as trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubble gum.

-- Mary Schmich

> For starters, it's using the word "anxiety" for completely different things.

I don't know what you're referring to, exactly. I have a cognitive mode where thoughts pool in my head and do not leave. This means I have a lot of pooled thoughts and they are resilient, in that I'm actively aware of them for a long time and it's easy to put them back in the pool. This also tends to leave to anxiety, because often to-dos sit in the pool just as well. But it helps me remember that I have to-dos.

Forgive me if I'm not too interested in the Wikipedia definition or the current psychology consensus. You are just trying to define anxiety as a tautologically negative thing while it's very tightly coupled to keeping track of things and assessing things. I can turn off my anxiety if I stop worrying about things, but if I stop worrying about things, they stop getting done.

It's like pain. Pain sucks, but if it's informing you about something cutting into your skin you'd probably like to know. At the same time, it can be used against you, be too much, and become its own bad thing. Anxiety is information of wrongness of state. Like anything else, it can be miscalibrated, and you seem to be just claiming that anxiety only exists in miscalibrated form, which is silly.

I can go into a lot more detail as to how this may work.

> And if anything, I'd say humans are happier when they are productive in a way.

Hence why I said what I said: humans were not necessarily meant to be happy. Human happiness is actually not relevant to this discussion. If anxiety helps you survive by making you avoid bad situations and pay your bills even if you become miserable in the process, it's done its job as far as evolution is concerned.

> You're not "either a warrior or a thinker", I see no basis for that dichotomy.

https://selfhacked.com/2014/12/24/worrier-warrior-explaining...

It's not a complete dichotomy, and obviously none of this is solidly proven, but I am not referring to stereotypes here.

Either of your scenarios sound like anxiety to me. To me, not being anxious means 1. being aware that the chances of something going bad are very small, and 2. recognizing that worrying about it is usually not productive at best, harmful at worst. In short I think you should aim to go from constantly developing and updating a plan as to what to do if stranger attacks you, to trusting yourself to be able to develop and execute a plan should the need arise, and not spending time and energy worrying about it before then.

I think the non-anxious thing is to lazily initialize your defense mechanisms / responses to most would-be threats.

I didn't realize the extent of my anxiety until a bunch of months ago, when I had a small dose of lorazepam. Suddenly, the inner voice in my head that when riding in a car would usually be worrying "what if we crash or are pulled over right now" for the duration of the ride was replaced with "ah, there's a chance we might crash or be pulled over, but that chance is small, and worrying about it now isn't going to impact it, so instead I'll let my mind work on imagining what I could do with my free time tomorrow." It was quite the difference.

Benzos are super addictive drugs and I wouldn't want to develop a habit (or encourage their use lest others develop a habit), but seeing the contrast motivated me to work on mindfulness and exercise to decrease my anxiety levels.

Fair point, I got carried away a bit there :)

I've been in subway systems all over the world, including tokyo and new york, and I never felt particularly anxious on a NYC subway, at least during the day.

The only time I feel anxious in NYC is when it's rush hour and I can barely get enough space in the train to breathe, but that happens everywhere :-)

This sounds like a specific anxiety related to your feelings of personal safety. This is absolutely something that triggers anxiety, but there are many, many other forms. For example, if you suffered from claustrophobia-related anxiety, Tokyo would not solve your issues at all.

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