Shame on Y Combinator | Hacker News Reader

Shame on Y Combinator

marco.org

1,280 pointsMattBearman1,321 comments

We've turned off user flags again for this story because the rule of HN moderation is to moderate threads less when they're critical of YC or YC-funded startups. Please be respectful of your fellow community members in the discussion—such divisive issues are threatening and our first duty is to protect the community.

Marcos understanding of this situation is extremely telling for a fundamental problem with many americans relationship with politics. Most only get involved around election. After that their political interest is non existing.

It's easy to get lured into the idea that politics is a simple choice between the moral good and the moral bad, that the choice is simple and that there is a one to one relationship between what you vote for and what you get.

In reality however it's much more complicated. For all the crazy things Trump says, for all is egoism he has some very important points which needs to be addressed and discussed and he represents a group of people who haven't been represented for the last 40 years. A group who are themselves excluded from society. A group who experience their own form of discrimination by the likes of Marcos, me and everyone else who are benefitting from the progress of technology, globalization, taxation rules and so on.

Marcos is all about form. Trumps form is admittedly not pretty but there are some important issues and for Theil a different political goal than Trump which isn't represented by Hillary. If you can't understand that then you make the mistakes of Marco et all. You confuse rhetorics with whats at stake.

If you don't want dissent, fine just admit it. That way at least you are being honest. Don't wrap your lack of political understanding into some claim of decency.

Racism is not just racism, sexism is not just sexism. These are complicated matters by the very nature of them being about human relationships.

So don't be the very thing your object to.

And no I don't want to defend Trump or Theil but rather the fundamental principle that no matter what in a democracy everyone have the right to say and mean what they want without having to fear the repercussions. Life is complicated and it happens all the time not just around election. There are many good reasons to be against Trump or Peter Theils endorsement of him, Marcos reasons just arent any of them. They are purely superficial understanding of what's really at stake here.

> he represents a group of people who haven't been represented for the last 40 years.

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/15/13286498/d...

> the fundamental principle that no matter what in a democracy everyone have the right to say and mean what they want without having to fear the repercussions

This is not a principle, let alone a fundamental one, in any democracy or any other kind of society.

> > the fundamental principle that no matter what in a democracy everyone have the right to say and mean what they want without having to fear the repercussions

> This is not a principle, let alone a fundamental one, in any democracy or any other kind of society.

While this is literally true, I feel the need to point out that increased restrictions on speech, and increased repercussions for speech seem to correlate strongly with non-democracies.

Exposure to criticism is not a "restriction on speech".

Agitating for people to be fired based on pilitical affiliation is not "criticizm". If you think it is consider how you would feel about it when you are on tbe receiving end.

Read this: https://baselinescenario.com/2016/10/17/you-cant-get-there-f...

The very same Gallup study which that Vox article relied on to argue that Trump support was correlated with higher, not lower income also found that blue collar and less educated workers were disproportionately likely to vote for Trump, and Vox intentionally omitted that fact. This is particularly dishonest of Vox because the result they did quote was after correcting for the fact that working-class status and education are correlated with income, and they didn't mention that either.

That is, any correlation with income that appeared to be better explained by both being correlated with being working-class or anything else was excluded, and worse still there's no guarantee that the attribution to a particular category (say, class instead of income) is the result of anything other than random chance.

Very interesting. I actually read this as a more nuanced take on the Vox article (which I'd read more as saying "it's not economic anxiety" rather than "it's this other thing than economic anxiety"). The verdict seems to be, we cannot tell whether it's economic anxiety or something else. Anyway, interesting blog, which I've now added to my subscriptions, so thanks for that!

I'm pretty sure a huge portion of Trump's support is from people that are essentially single issue tax and supreme court voters (for the presidential election). Or even a Yuuuge portion. Jerry Falwell Jr. isn't struggling or left out of the political process.

I also don't understand what everyone have the right to say and mean what they want without having to fear the repercussions is supposed to mean. If someone repeatedly says stupid things, one of the repercussions is that I'm going to start thinking they aren't very thoughtful. Do they have a right to not be judged by me? Or are you referring to some grayer area of repercussions that they should not have to face?

I think the idea is that you thinking they are stupid is much different from being fired from a job (or removed as a partner, however you would frame this scenario). The changing externalities leads to that gray area.

Political viewpoint should never be in my opinion a contributor towards dismissal. The problem here, is that I can easily see some of the Trump-style racial discomfort that he exploited leading to being fired from a job / removed as a partner, or at the very least hindering advancement, for actual non-political reasons.

In any internationally exposed company, Muslims and Mexicans (and other nationalities / religious groups, but these have been the focal points of the Trump campaign) might be your customers. They might even be some of your employees. Now, say you are one of those with said Trump-exploited racial discomfort and you quite often babble about how evil the Muslims are or how nasty those Mexican immigrants are etc. One can certainly infer that one does not really want to put this person anywhere near any job where they might be on a team with actual Muslims or Mexicans, let alone exec type of positions where you may be visiting Muslim/Mexican employees or customers directly.

I really don't care for Marco's attempt to strong-arm YCombinator based on a political candidate (not all Trump supporters are supporting him for the racial discomfort type thing anyways). But I do sometimes wonder whether those holding racial discomfort viewpoints do in fact have a potential barrier to life progress and even whether this sort of thing is a potential contributor to the inequality gap. The challenge to me is how to reduce this without resorting to the often condescending / insulting / I'm-holier-than-thou type responses you frequently see in discussions about this topic.

I think you are mistaken there: single-issue tax and supreme court voters are not a very big part of Trump's support base.

This piece in Cracked managed to explain a lot of the red state support with genuine understanding. The bottom line is, people lash out when they don't have a voice.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-on...

(I'm sorry the headline is just as stupid as all Cracked headlines are. The article is not.)

Yeah, I read some of that the other day. I continue to think that my single issue voters together are a larger block than the people in that article. The article doesn't have any more statistics than I do.

Does he really represent that group of people? Or does he appeal to them because no one actually represents them? I think he's there for himself and whoever will give people the impression that he's winning.

Obviously there are many disillusioned people but I certainly don't think Trump is the best option for them. I'd like to see far more real attention and representation given to the crowd you speak of.

Wrong. This exactly the kind of sophistry that Marco refutes. Political positions are moral positions, to believe otherwise is hopelessly naive

>in a democracy everyone have the right to say and mean what they want without having to fear the repercussions

No, that's not what free speech is. You have the right to say what you want but you must accept the consequences.

You have the right to say what you want but you must accept the consequences.

So, for the sale of argument: if Trump is democratically elected and then begins reprisals of his political enemies, you must accept those consequences?

The right to free speech means the government cannot or should not punish you for speech (save for when it poses a danger, like creating imminent threat to someone else's wellbeing).

Everyone else is free to respond to and criticize someone for their speech (as long as that response doesn't involve, say, assault). This includes the writing of articles against someone else's decision of where to spend their money.

Political positions are not moral positions. There's more than one way to accomplish a goal, and even if you share goals, it might be that you just think that the priority of these goals are different.

I think the best way to increase the American quality of life is to allow more choices, more trade, and reduce taxation. This gets me branded as being "anti-poor". I want the same thing as you, I just think there's different ways to go about it.

I'll granted that sometimes political positions come from moral positions, but they are not a 1:1 match, and you can't claim you know the best way to enact a set of moral positions.

All positions on anything at all are moral positions; including your willingness to compromise to achieve goals.

>Political positions are moral positions, to believe otherwise is hopelessly naive //

But so to is to believe that one can't vote for someone who has acted, or intends to act, immorally and yet maintain the most ethical position.

Here in the UK for example: suppose one party is for nuclear weapons, another is for killing the NHS, another is for war in Syria. I might consider all those positions immoral but nonetheless I'd [most likely] cast a vote.

From the OP:

>"This isn’t voting for an economic or social policy — this is literally paying a huge amount of money to directly support [...unethical acts...]."

So, if you see Clinton winning as leading to even greater travesties what should you do? Not vote for Trump, Trump is surely the only other reasonable option.

Maybe Thiel does support those unethical acts, but we surely can't tell, it seems as likely from the sidelines that he simply sees that if Trump gets in Thiel personally will be better off. That seems to be the way a lot of people vote.

"the fundamental principle that no matter what in a democracy everyone have the right to say and mean what they want without having to fear the repercussions"

I think you are mixing things, Democracy does not give anyone the right to be liked even when they say awful stuff. Marco is not saying that supporting Trump should be illegal, he is saying that supporting Trump is shameful, and that supporting someone who supports Trump at such scale is shameful too.

Oh i agree on that. Just like i can say he isnt really making an argument, just stating an opinion on a very simplistic base. Questioning peoples morales is always shaky ground. No one is just one thing.

`Supporting` someone who supports Trump? You do realize he's not their employee, he's wealthy, and most certainly wouldn't change his mind if YC or all of you disagreed with him, right?

This is all political/"moral outrage" theater.

Only if you presume the point is to change Thiel's mind - which it clearly isn't.

Right, since that can't possibly be the point, then the point is to demonstrate moral outrage at someone's political position by proxy of YC?

> I think you are mixing things, Democracy does not give anyone the right to be liked even when they say awful stuff ... support[ing shameful things/people] at such scale is shameful too.

I have some sympathy for both perspectives (Marco's and Altman's), and I have a great dislike of Trump, but ultimately this leads to some very difficult questions related to the intersection of public and private life, and how the same intersection could and should affect (or not) employment, eligibility–recognition (e.g. for scholarships, invitations to speak, awards, public office, etc.) and other junctions of persons and institutions.

Without intending (at any level, in this context) to dive into some of the issues I'll mention shortly, I want to consider the implications from a personal angle. The Catholic Faith is important to me, and I consider it an obligation – as occasions arise – to be something of an apologist for any/all of the Catholic Church's teachings, no matter how unpopular: on contraception, abortion, the nature of marriage, sexual morality, and so on. I have, do, and will speak and write publicly about those things. I have been and will likely continue – on occasion – to be chastised for doing so. I get no enjoyment from vitriol, but as I said, I think I have a moral obligation to speak up.

So, in a society that largely rejects such teachings, what should the consequences be for my publicly defending and promoting those beliefs? Is it desirable that (if not now, eventually) I should not be able to be gainfully employed among, say, the mainstream tech crowd? If I were launching a startup, should my venture be disqualified from funding by VCs or other investors that learn of my views and public defense–promotion of the same? Should I be disallowed to speak at popular tech conferences if I applied to do so? Should the answers to those questions be different if the way I go about my unpopular activities is devoid of personal attacks and discourtesy (i.e. shown to individuals with whom I have disagreements in public or private).

The reason I've made this so personal is because I've actually worried, a bit, about these matters in recent years. I've wondered too, if I have children, and if they follow in my footsteps in these matters (I hope they would), what would be the consequences for them?

But the personal angle is really just for perspective. More broadly, how should our society treat those with unpopular views (even very unpopular ones)? I suppose one might judge that exclusion–rejection at the level of affecting quality of life and participation in "the mainstream" might be a deterrent to such views or might even "cleanse" them from individuals and communities. But where does it stop, and what does it mean if tolerance convulses into its opposite? I worry we're only headed toward a deeper fracturing of our society and ideological ghettoization. I don't think that will make our society stronger; no, quite the opposite.

> he represents a group of people who haven't been represented for the last 40 years

No he doesn't. He doesn't appeal to or represent poor whites, those vote D. He also doesn't appeal to or represent minorities, immigrants, or women. Those also vote D. He appeals to and represents white men that have a household income slightly higher than the median. Those people have been nothing but listened to for the last 140 years.

You've been talking with a different set of poor whites than I have.

I'm not a Trump supporter or potential voter, but we fool ourselves when we invoke this caricature.

Hopefully their information doesn't come from talking to people. There are better sources.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-...

Primary voters in early May? Are they somehow relevant?

I think the group he is referring to is my parent's demographic, working class Americans in factories. Whereas the Democratic party once supported labor movements and unionization as a primary cause, social welfare and rights issue have moved to be the primary (Please note this is a generalization, but mirrors their perspective).

The result is that they see a candidate who promises isolationist policies (Keep our manufacturing jobs here, as they've seen them go to China and Mexico for decades) as a more viable candidate than one who continues to drive for more globalization.

In passing, I'd like to note that my father actually preferred Cruz, which may match your description slightly better, while my mother preferred Trump largely for the reasons I listed above.

> He appeals to and represents white men that have a household income slightly higher than the median. Those people have been nothing but listened to for the last 140 years.

I think that describes like... 4% of the population, depending on your definition of "slightly".

I am not even living in US, but wanted to give you some data to show that you are wrong.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/04/death...

Also, last I checked women had plenty of voice in the last 40 years... beside being the majority of the voters (and thus always pandered to by default), US have no-fault divorce (something that usually only women want, most no-fault divorce are initiated by women), abortion is legal (Brazil for example where I live, abortion is still mostly illegal), Title IX exists, VAWA exists, more women than men finish college, female labour participation is higher than male, and so on...

None of your points actually refute that white men with above median income have influenced and been listened to in the past 40 years

Or to say it another way, just because those things have happened, doesn't mean anything against what the parent poster wrote

That is in fact not a fundamental principle of democracy. There is no work of political philosophy anywhere that suggests we should be able to say whatever we'd like "without fear of repercussions". What is a principle of liberal philosophy, though, is that we should be tolerant of the beliefs of others (in the sense of not intervening to suppress them), including intolerant beliefs, until those intolerant beliefs threaten society.

You may not believe Trump is a real thread to society. I disagree. So far, so good. The issue here is: Sam Altman and Paul Graham disagree too. Both of them compare Trump to a dictator. Paul Graham compared him to Stalin. Both Altman and Graham believe, like I do, that Trump is an existential threat to our democracy.

Sam Altman cannot coherently believe this while supporting Peter Thiel, who is not just a Trump supporter, but an important part of the Trump campaign. Even most leaders of the Republican party refused to get on stage at the RNC to support Trump. Thiel did. When he did, he used his time to claim that Donald Trump was the only honest candidate in the race. He bundled millions of dollars of donations for Trump. And, just last week, after Trump pivoted his campaign as a crusade against the legitimacy of our elections and of the black vote, Thiel donated $1.25MM more.

Nobody denies Sam Altman's right to support Peter Thiel, or, for that matter, Thiel's right to support Trump. But we are all very much entitled to criticize what Altman is doing, and we would be doing Altman no favors by withholding that criticism.

> But we are all very much entitled to criticize what Altman is doing, and we would be doing Altman no favors by withholding that criticism.

Why are you entitled to do it in the most publicly way you are able?

Because he is willing to face the repercussions of doing so.

What repercussions? The situation strikes me as asymmetric: no matter what action Altman or Graham take they will be heavily criticized; for Ptacek, the worst would seem to be disagreement with his well-reasoned dialogue.

It seems unfair to force this to become a very public conversation.

Altman made it a very public conversation when he posted it on the YC blog. Others are just continuing to discuss in a similarly public venue.

Sam Altman has so much money that he divides his time between multiple McLarens. His "reserve fund" in case of emergencies is ten million dollars. Altman need never work again in his life. That's not me, especially after my two teenage kids go to college.

I'm a startup founder. Not only that, but I'm a startup founder that just last year considered attending YC during the summer session after Altman invited me (and, more likely, my then-cofounder Patrick McKenzie). I have friendships with people inside of YC, and with YC founders. Moreover, the company I'm building now works exclusively with startups, most of them at the YC stage of development, no doubt many of whom will actually be YC companies. How likely am I to get that invite again?

Furthermore, Peter Thiel is famously the most vindictive investor in Silicon Valley. He bragged about it, I believe, to the New York Times. I've had the pleasure of being blackballed by a group of different VC firms in the past.

If you think I have nothing to lose by antagonizing Sam Altman and, I guess, Peter Thiel (I think I have some safety from being too insignificant for Thiel to care about), I'd ask you to reevaluate.

Reading what you've written, it sounds like you are saying that Altman and people associated with YC are sufficiently petty that they would refuse to work with you in the future because of a political disagreement. Am I interpreting this correctly? That would seem to be at odds with Altman's actions and public persona so far.

You really think Altman or Graham would work with Trump in the future?

(I won't be surprised if it happens either.)

Logic suggests that you aren't, in fact, likely to risk any of those things just to express your opinion in an online argument. So you don't think this is a real danger or you wouldn't be saying it here.

> If you think I have nothing to lose by antagonizing Sam Altman

Altman's handling of this Thiel situation suggests that he'd handle it gracefully and would not hold it against you, out of respect for your personal beliefs and out of respect for your acting in a principled way, even if he disagreed with your conclusions, etc.

That's an excellent point. Altman is demonstrating intelligence and maturity.

as long as no one have actually formulated an argument based on facts how Trump is a threat to democracy I dont see how he is more dangerous than Hillary, Bush or Obama. And i am pretty sure a large portion of people outide the US see those three as bigger threats to their lives than Trump given US foreign policy.

So until someone show how the us system can be destroyed by Trump I stand by my position that Trump is no more dangerous than Hillary.

But you are basically saying that what you believe doesent apply in the case of Trump and so you are ok with ignoring your own principles while claiming he is the one who is guilty?

If you believe that Trump is no more dangerous than Clinton, your support for Peter Thiel makes sense, and, while I'd implore you to reconsider, I'm content for us to agree to disagree.

But Sam Altman and Paul Graham don't agree with you. They virulently disagree with you. They repeatedly compare Trump to a fascist dictator. They claim Trump is an existential threat to our democracy. Paul Graham said that if Trump wins, he'll "join the resistance".

I agree with Altman and Graham on that. But I feel obligated to point out to them both --- Altman in particular --- that what they say about Trump is incompatible with the manner in which they affiliate with Peter Thiel, who is a part of the Trump campaign.

Or perhaps you are hijacking their words and misrepresent their actual opinions.

Perhaps they dont believe its as litterally as you do. It would certainly make sense since claiming Trump is Stalin is as ill informed as it is absurd.

Just like you are ready to ignore your principles for a bigger belief so is Theil. He is not voting for Trump he is voting for change. The very change everyone agrees is needed.

I am not.

Apparently they dont believe him to be a big enough threat to cut ties with Thiel for supporting him. Make of that what you want.

Thank you. This perception is exactly why we keep telling Sam Altman and Paul Graham that they need to reconsider their stance on Peter Thiel.

But that's in support of my point that perhaps they don't mean it the way you want them to not yours that they really believe that Trump is a threat to democracy.

You can decide to read what Sam Altman says and say "but maybe he doesn't really mean it", but that's a bit of a stretch. Just read their actual thoughts on the subject. tptacek is not misrepresenting what they are saying.

From Altman:

"His racist, isolationist policies would divide our country, and American innovation would suffer. But the man himself is even more dangerous than his policies. He's erratic, abusive, and prone to fits of rage.

He represents a real threat to the safety of women, minorities, and immigrants, and I believe this reason alone more than disqualifies him to be president. [...]

Trump shows little respect for the Constitution, the Republic, or for human decency, and I fear for national security if he becomes our president."

I am not saying he doesn't mean it, simply that he doesn't mean it enough (it would also be an absurd claim to compare Trump with Musolini) to do anything about it.

Thank you. This perception is exactly why we keep telling Sam Altman and Paul Graham that they need to reconsider their stance on Peter Thiel.

You do concede that people (including Thiel) can be decent and support Trump? I know plenty of good people who support him and for good reasons.

If Altman is comfortable with the idea that his actions are encouraging people to comfortably support Donald Trump, then I'm comfortable with him continuing to endorse Peter Thiel.

He personally endorsed the opposing candidate. What more can he do?

Any more would send the wrong signal and establish a odious norm in our free society.

He can stop endorsing an active, diligent member of Trump's campaign.

You keep using that word "endorsing". I think it does not mean what you think it means.

Altman has made it quite clear that he endorses neither Trump nor Thiel's support of him.

"Endorsing" and "refusing to purge" are two different things entirely.

Do you really see no difference between the two?

Of course a decent person can support Trump, if by decent you mean hard working, honest, responsible, etc.

This isn't about the decency or not of Trump supporters. It's about indirectly supporting Trump and thereby increasing the chances he'll be elected.

Altman's and YC's non-disavowal of Thiel supports that outcome. Altman's support is a layer removed from writing a check for Trump, but it's still support.

If Altman believes (as he seems to) that a Trump presidency would be very bad for America, it's hard to see why he would not specifically repudiate Thiel's actions. That's different from repudiating a friendship.

If you had a friend who used their considerable resources to publicly and materially support what you believed to be a truly bad outcome for America, would you not consider saying, "I can't go there with you, and I can't let my company's prestige support you while you do."?

He's NOT indirectly supporting Trump though. You shouldn't HAVE to fire everyone who disagrees with you politically in order to convince "ridgeguy" that you support your own views.

This is a very good point. I do not think supporting Trump is outside the bounds of decency, and I would not disassociate from Thiel on these grounds. But Sam Altman stated that "If Peter said some of the things Trump says himself, he would no longer be part of Y Combinator." The recent Citizens United Supreme Court decision re-affirmed the intimate connection between monetary support and political speech. So this is a serious logical disjunction on sama's part. Every fascist is someone's friend.

It's a simple comparison really:

Trump - (paraphased) Muslims are evil, they should be registered and have special restrictions placed on them.

He singled out a single religious group. Made them the target of a group of people that are disposed to hating them. It goes against the very spirit of modern western democracy. To many it represents a clear and unforseen threat to our country. Even Bush who was clearly the most aggressive of the recent presidents in dealing with Muslim states, stopped WAY short of that. Clinton has clearly not singled out any one group, clearly tried to bring more people together. To compare the two is blatantly overlooking the clear differences in Trump's campaign and nearly every other one in recent history.

There’s a major problem with Muslim refugees in Europe right now. My girlfriend used to love visiting Paris, now it’s basically a no-go zone even in daytime. What he’s saying is based on reality, even if it makes you feel all bad inside when you hear it. Even in the US, where the refugee problem doesn’t exist, you still learn after terrorist attacks that, f.e. the family knew, or that the attacker had bomb equipment all over the apartment, but nobody said anything.

These are national security issues, and they need to be addressed by the president, i’m glad he’s doing it, same for illegal immigration, even if he’s doing it in a cringe-worthy, populist way. He’s not a life-long politician.

Anytime a tragedy happens right now, first thing you hear is Obama and Clinton taking about guns being the problem, and wanting to disarm you, or that all Muslims are amazing people. You never hear the problem being addressed. It is rather scary to see your president, and potential future president do that.

> My girlfriend used to love visiting Paris, now it’s basically a no-go zone even in daytime.

What are you talking about. I've lived in Paris for 40+ years, there is no special problems. We had terrorists attacks, we may have more, but basically nobody cares much about it or talks about it, and life is the same as it's always been (lots of traffic, lots of people in the subway, weather not great).

Marine Le Pen is polling above 30% in France (in the same type of polls that understated Brexit). It's a stretch to claim that "nobody cares" because clearly there is significant discontent being expressed politically.

> major problem with Muslim refugees in Europe

I'm a theological noncognitivist so I couldn't care less about what religion is more "evil" but move any group (Muslim, Christian or even a bunch of Pastafarians) from such a condition to the middle of Europe, and you will get similar results. They are more human than they are Muslim.

I'm not going to go on about how not actually that bad the situation is because that is not the point.

No, you move a group of people, who don't share western values into the middle of the western civilization and this is what you get. Syria is not the only war-torn country on Earth.

Paris a no-go zone, in daytime? That's laughable.

It is indeed a wild exaggeration, as anyone who's recently visited Paris can tell you.

But there are some problem areas where the police unions say they can't go:

https://www.thelocal.fr/20161010/are-there-police-no-go-zone...

“The police can’t apply the law in these areas, they are attacked. If the police can’t do their work it’s because there are criminals and delinquents who don’t respect the law.”

“It’s not just a problem with this government it’s a problem with all French governments over the last 20 years. Governments will never admit there are no-go zones because it’s a sign of a failed state."

There’s a major problem with Muslim refugees in Europe right now. My girlfriend used to love visiting Paris, now it’s basically a no-go zone even in daytime.

I think you and your racist girlfriend should probably go visit some other country instead. I am sure you can find some nice white safe space where you can fondle your your personal weaponry without being considered mentally unstable, but Europe is definitely not going to be to your liking.

My girlfriend used to love visiting Paris, now it’s basically a no-go zone even in daytime.

A bizarre thing to say, for multiple reasons. Most chiefly being, Paris has quite famously had a large Muslim population for several decades now -- which the recent refugee influx has hardly made a measurable impact on.

So he's saying his girlfriend "used to" love visiting Paris, with all its Muslims, up until about 2-3 years ago -- but now it's a "no-go zone"?

You are exaggerating, completely. But lets presume you are not.

How does Trump's fear mongering and threats of violating the constitution help? Opressing a group based on their religion have never in the course of history made a anything safer. It just creates bigger problems later. Once he opens the door to religious oppression how do you know that the next president won't use that power against you?

Trump is an existential threat to the United States.

> There’s a major problem with Muslim refugees in Europe right now.

And it's a refugee problem, not a Muslim problem.

> And i am pretty sure a large portion of people outide the US see those three as bigger threats to their lives than Trump given US foreign policy.

I don't think this is correct. It is 100% not correct in the EU and I doubt people in the countries where US foreign policy is more heavy-handed – you know, murdering people from the air without trial and all that – actually believe in substantial policy changes after the election. I am pretty sure many fear more of the bad stuff.

Exactly. Hillary has stated there would be a military response to Russia because of the alleged hacking.

Latest leak shows Evidence of Democrat organizers paying agitators to disrupt Trump rallies in efforts to smear Trump supporters.

Discusses strategy for “initiating conflict by having leading conversations with people who are naturally psychotic” – Foval is referring to paying agitators to instigate trouble at Trump events here, calling Trump supporters “naturally psychotic.”[0][1]

This is some evil dealings.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY [1] http://regated.com/2016/10/project-veritas-clinton-camp-corr...

Exactly, if the Hillary camp is capable of doing that, what more is fabricated of all the Trump weirdness in the news?

I'll tell you exactly why I think Trump is dangerous to democracy. He is acting in a way that has historically, as far as I remember, led to the downfall of democracy in other countries.

Things he is doing in that vein:

1. Saying that he'd put his political opponents in jail.

2. Saying that the election is rigged.

3. Encouraging the idea that if he isn't elected, the election was illegitimate.

These are the facts. If you still disagree, I think it has to be because of one of these reasons:

1. You disagree that Trump is doing these things.

2. You disagree that they historically have lead to the downfall of democracies.

3. You disagree that them having lead to the downfall of democracies means that it is good evidence that this is a danger to democracy.

I'd appreciate if you could tell me which of the above is your stance?

(Obviously, if I missed another possibility, I'd be happy to know about it!)

Not GP, but I share his general viewpoint. My response would be:

1. I do not believe he would actually be able to do this (like the wall). Thankfully, unlike other aspects of our government, our judiciary is generally functional and independent. I think what he is really saying here is something like this:

"HRC should have been indicted for the e-mails. The FBI director and AG are both Obama appointees. Bill Clinton was seen meeting with the AG very shortly before the decision was announced. There are many documented cases of lower-level officials being indicted for lesser mishandling of classified information. Based on all of this, it seems reasonable to propose that her exoneration was primarily a political decision, and was unjust. I'd like to correct that."

Not watertight, but a reasonable enough argument. In other words, I think he is saying that HRC should be in jail because he believes she performed a criminal act, not simply because she was his opponent.

2 & 3. My reading is that he is doing this, but not nearly as forcefully or frequently as the press implies he does. Furthermore, our elections can be and have been rigged in the past. There are numerous examples of this in the Democratic primaries this year. The real question is not whether both parties attempt to rig elections (they do: gerrymandering, voter ID laws, laws on criminal voting are all instances of this), but whether the rigging determines the election's outcome. Most people would say that it usually does not.

So if he argues, even pre-emptively, that the elections will be rigged, it is quite likely he will have a fact-based case to make that they are. It will be a much harder slog to convince anyone that the rigging was what prevented him from being elected, and I think he will not be successful in this if he tries.

I do not believe in criticizing people's statements based on consequentialist logic: i.e. "the things he is saying may or may not be true, but we should condemn them anyway because they are corrosive to democracy". My only real criterion for whether to accept or condemn statements is based on their truth or falsehood, or likelihood, or logic.

>>1 I'm impressed by the 9th dimensional re-reading of "You'd be in jail" if he were president. I know your God Emperor loves that you help him complete his sentences and also tie his shoes.

>>2/3 Sure, Trump is a fact-based kind of guy! So after he cries fire in a crowded theater let's trust he's the the guy trying to stop the mob. /s

I'm not a Trump supporter. Actually I was a Bernie supporter. I dislike both remaining candidates, but I do try to take as charitable an interpretation of both candidates' statements as reasonably possible. I have not found it productive to work any other way.

I can take a charitable interpretation of one candidate's statements, but not the other -- in which case my thinking becomes biased, or I can take an uncharitable interpretation of all candidates' statements, in which case they all seem irredeemably evil. Or I can try to make a good-faith attempt to determine what each candidate seems to be trying to say, which at least makes logical (as opposed to purely tribal) discourse possible, even though my inferences may be wrong.

I'm also a contrarian -- so, even though I may appear to be defending Trump here, because HRC is so overwhelmingly favored on HN, I do exactly the opposite with my friends and family in the red state I live in.

Of course I am not saying Trump is an especially honest or fact-based person. I am simply saying that when we evaluate candidates and their statements, we should try to look at facts. In case I didn't make it clear enough:

#1 is supported by some facts, if you take the interpretation I have taken. If he means something different, maybe not.

If he means, "I would put her in jail if I became President simply for being my political opponent", then that would be very bad, and of course I wouldn't condone that. I just don't see any more evidence for that interpretation than for mine.

#2 could be supported by ample facts, or not, depending on what he means by "rigged". Actually the bar would be much higher if he said something like "the election is/was rigged in HRC's net favor". I strongly doubt that.

#3 will almost certainly never be supportable.

Those are all super good points. I am also a contrarian. So I understand your points.

But this is basically coming down to the sharp drop off in your world view. You give Trump a wide latitude in what he says. What if he puts her in jail? What if he meant that? What if he meant everything that he said but you explained it away?Were you complacent?

edit: typo

This fear based "what if" is what is moving us towards "tribal discourse" and is an existential danger to our country far more than Trump. Between safety above all else and the out-group is evil, we're looking at the end of civil discourse.

I agree Trump is mostly a symptom of polarization (although I would say "what if"-based fear is more of a rhetorical tactic than a problem in itself).

Bottom line: we have some very severe systemic issues that allowed Trump to get as far as he has. Even if he isn't elected, if the issues aren't addressed, there will just be another Trump, and that one might be successful. So it behooves everyone to at least listen and try to understand what his supporters want and why they feel underserved by the current system.

We won't be able to do that if we write off everything Trump says as crazytalk. Clearly, his supporters don't see it that way.

The way Democrats are running their campaign they are the real threat to democracy. Newest leak:

For those without time to watch:

Scott Foval, National Field Director at Americans United for Change, discloses a number of unethical (and perhaps illegal) activities on undercover camera conducted by the liberal advocacy group Americans United for Change, with various PACs and the DNC.

Evidence of Democrat organizers paying agitators to disrupt Trump rallies in efforts to smear Trump supporters.

Evidence of collusion between superPACs and the DNC. Foval describes his middlemen who get around the law to commit these crimes.

Aaron Black, DNC Rapid Response Coordinator, boasts about planning a Chicago protest at a Trump event. Two Chicago police reporters got hurt at this event.

Scott Foval admits planting a “supporter” (friend of Foval) who gets rough treatment at a Scott Walker event. Foval also staged people in the crowd for a “reaction.”

Scott Foval brags about hiring homeless and mentally-ill people to protest and agitate at various Trump events.

Foval calls half the state of Iowa “racist as fuck.” Wisconsin too.[0]http://regated.com/2016/10/project-veritas-clinton-camp-corr... [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY

> The way Democrats are running their campaign they are the real threat to democracy.

Yes, this exactly. While Trump is out there making lewd, offensive, or ignorant statements, the Clinton campaign and the Democratic party are actually carrying out actions that threaten the integrity of our democratic process. It's sad that all of those things are just from the newest leak. Way too much collusion amongst the party, the campaign, superpacs, the media, and outside interests. All of this makes it nearly impossible for the public to make an informed decision.

Encouraging your well-armed nutjob supporters to go to the polls and 'monitor' them is kiiiind of on another level.

Trump isn't just a moron spouting off nonsense--he's the leader of a large radicalized army, an army which includes large swathes of the police and military. Americans are so complacent and used to stability that they think this is all a crazy TV show that can't affect them personally, but this is a very volatile situation that could quickly go in the wrong direction.

Any proofs for the statements above?

WaPo headline: Trump urges supporters to monitor polling places in ‘certain areas’

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10...

I didn't find a "well armed" anywhere in WaPo article. Honestly, I have no problem with monitoring election process (as well as any other government/public process). This things should be transparent.

So far we have Republican offices vandalized (North Carolina: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nc-republican-office-fir... and Delaware: http://fox59.com/2016/10/18/vandals-throw-bricks-through-win...)

> he's the leader of a large radicalized army

Wat. He's the nominee for one of the two major political parties in America. Calling his supporters a "large radicalized army" is no better than calling half of them a "basket of deplorables." The entire reason Trump got the nomination is because people like you consistently marginalized the security and economic concerns of a large swath of people rather than bothering to constructively engage. Thinly veiled suggestions that Trump supporters are going to become violent on election day are just as retarded and unhelpful as suggestions that all muslims are secret terrorists.

Project Veritas: Video II: Mass Voter Fraud[0]

Considering the newest leak came out showing just that this might not be so far fetched after all.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDc8PVCvfKs

All you’re doing is trying to shame Altman and Y Combinator supporters into disowing Thiel. The great thing about what Altman is doing is that he doesn’t feel so morally superior to others that he’ll either see people share his views, or have them removed. You should learn to criticise ideas, not people.

I don't understand this line of reasoning, from either end of the spectrum. When those ideas have abhorrent real world consequences, that negatively affect real people's lives, why would we not criticize the people who hold them?

Understanding it is key to making a diverse democracy work.

> When those ideas have abhorrent real world consequences...why would we not criticize the people who hold them?

I'm an academic. Academics frequently come up with ideas that have, or would have if implemented, abhorrent real-world consequences. If you're a liberal, think hardcore, Heritage Institute supply-side economics. If you're a conservative, think Karl Marx.

It is perfectly legitimate, and healthy, to criticize the ideas which you think are bad. However, the problem is that we as a society don't know a priori which ones really are and aren't bad. People have different opinions. The best way we've figured out to determine which are truly good and bad ideas is to have an open "marketplace of ideas" with free and open debate.

If we criticize and marginalize people who have unpopular (= we think are bad) ideas, then the only ideas left will be the popular ones. And that, I believe, is anathema to progress, far more so than letting bad ideas be aired and eventually lose in the court of public opinion. Another outcome is that the unpopular idea might turn out to be better and win, but would not have have a chance to if it were prematurely stifled. The best way to go, therefore, IMO, is to criticize bad ideas but not the people who hold them.

Humanity has tried before to stifle opposing viewpoints, and largely succeeded. It resulted in the Middle Ages. I prefer an open society.

That's all well and good, in the dreamy theoretical lands of academia. But when ideas turn into actions, and the actions have been seen before and we know the consequences, can we not criticize those who now promote them?

Can we? Of course. Should we? I am not so sure.

There are two possible kinds of ideas you could be talking about. One is ideas which have truly been tried before and have been actively and soundly rejected by the vast majority of the public. Let's call these "discredited" ideas and use as an example slavery, (some kinds of) eugenics, or flat-earthism.

Then there are the ideas that you may feel have no good evidence behind them, but are still controversial in the public. Many economic ideas are in this category.

For truly discredited ideas, I think the best response is to ignore these people, as they are usually not thinking clearly and it doesn't help anything to spend more time on the issue. For the ideas which are still controversial, the logic I stated above still holds. The ideas themselves should be vigorously attacked using evidence, but not the people.

I think this principle goes far beyond academia. I just used it as an example of reductio ad absurdum: it seems obvious that we wouldn't want to penalize academics for doing their jobs, which is making up and testing new ideas that may be wrong. But the idea of tolerance for holders of diverse opinions -- and the reasoning for why it is important -- is a cornerstone of classical liberalism and played a key role in why the Founders set up the country in the way they did.

He's criticizing the fact that certain people are holding two irreconcilable ideas at the same time.

If they are irreconcilable, then you should be petitioning to have every fired at work who supports different political candidates than you.

Wait, who are the fascists again?

No, he just can’t understand why somebody would tolerate an idea they disagree with.

> There is no work of political philosophy anywhere that suggests we should be able to say whatever we'd like "without fear of repercussions"

Its called freedom of speech/expression. Article 19 of the universal declaration of human rights uses very similar words

"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference..."

The idea is pretty traceable through the middle ages with also reference to ancient greece and rome often given. However it holds less weight now as it has been brought to bear by problematic issues of slander/libel and also threats of violence particularly but also by state issues (sedition/blasphemy/obscenity/state secrets etc.). Today even pure 'offense' is more and more considered outside of freedom of expression.

Probably the truest implementation however is in english parliament which has had defined freedom of speech dating back to their middle ages bill of rights. This hasnt been fettered in the same way.

Criticism is not "interference".

That's speaking of lack of interference from the government not from your fellow citizens. Everyone has the right to criticize whom ever they choose and do business with whom ever they choose, for any reason they choose. No government should have the right to enforce interference based on believes.

Certainly societal segregation is part of freedom of speech. John stuart mill is a key refefence to this. His general principle is that government should only step in to prevent harm but sometimes segregation based on belief can be that harm (his 'tyranny of the majority')

Now nobody we are talking about is struggling to survive based on their beliefs but whether its right to start segregating people for their views is definitely a freedom of speech issue.

John Stuart Mill did not believe that people should be shielded from criticism, even massed criticism, for fear that they might be victimized by their own bad feels. In fact: Mill believes that the preservation of free society and ordered democracy with equal access by citizens was one of the few reasons society has to limit freedom. As luck would have it, we're here today debating the very real candidacy of a person who proposes to strip Muslims of their citizenship rights, and of someone who stood on a debate stage and proclaimed that one of his first acts as President would be to ensure the imprisonment of his political rival.

Thankfully, nobody here is suggesting that the state should limit anyone's freedom (for that, you have to go to a Trump rally). Instead, we're simply criticizing Sam Altman for endorsing Peter Thiel.

There is no appeal you will be able to make to any liberal philosopher that people should be immunized from criticism.

Im certainly not saying criticism is wrong but 'having to fear the repercussions' goes further - i assume from all sides this meant the articles reference to YC potentially severing ties with thiel. All im pointing out is that this is a freedom of speech issue - whatever side you want to weigh in on. Broadly i agree with your views on Trump and interpretation of Mill

If Thiel were an employee of Altman's, I might agree with you. He's not, so I haven't had to pick this apart so much. Thiel's relationship with Altman is more akin to a large NASCAR decal's relationship with a a race car. I'm simply urging Altman to peel the sticker off, at least until he's successful in convincing his friend to stop supporting American Fascism.

> and proclaimed that one of his first acts as President would be to ensure the imprisonment of his political rival.

Yeah, but he's saying that because HRC has used her power and wealth to evade punishment for the white collar crimes she has committed.

Or are you saying HRC has never committed any white collar crimes and gotten off scot-free?

If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind. (1978, 16)

Such liberty should exist with every subject matter so that we have “absolute freedom of opinion and sentiment on all subjects, practical or speculative, scientific, moral or theological” (1978, 11). Mill claims that the fullest liberty of expression is required to push our arguments to their logical limits, rather than the limits of social embarrassment. Such liberty of expression is necessary, he suggests, for the dignity of persons. If liberty of expression is stifled, the price paid is “a sort of intellectual pacification” that sacrifices “ the entire moral courage of the human mind” (1978, 31).

[1] http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freedom-speech/#JohStuMilH...

Also, throughout all your comments, it is more than critical analysis of Thiel, Altman, et al. You seem to be calling for social or economic punishments for a political view. I doubt Mill would agree that ba[c]king a major political party's candidate is grounds for the kind of societal justice you claim is warranted.

There's a rationalist proverb: a bad argument gets an argument in return, not a bullet. Using economic force in debate starts edging towards the "bullet" end of the spectrum.

This shrinks the range of discourse and makes the collective brain more stupid. Call it "racism" or "fascism" or what you will, but every political movement that persecuted its opponents thought its opponents were worthy of persecution. This is called "demonization". You use current morality to turn your opponents into demons and justify raising the stakes against them.

We'd all be better off with a precommitment to civil debate. This would include engaging with Trump's specific ideas instead of using mere labels to refute him.

The First Amendment of the US Constitution (ie the relevant law at play here) mentions nothing about freedom of consequences from speech. And that is a good thing. The idea that such a freedom should exist is laughable.

I don't know if you followed what happened to the Atheist community in the US, but its downfall was essentially the kind of witch hunt you're trying to incite. The level of virtue signaling demanded gradually increases until no one is left in the community. This invariably happens because the question you're asking ("does intolerant belief X threaten society?") has no absolute answer, so there is always a higher level of purity to declare a community standard.

When I was younger I used to watch The Daily Show and laugh at how dumb the conservatives where -- they were trying to suppress rock and roll for fear of the devil's influence, etc. As I grew older I came to realize it wasn't conservatives generally who were the awful/dumb ones, it was a particular kind of person in a context where they felt they could dictate to others what was ethically right. Moral fashion police if you will.

I've lately seen more and more Moral Fashion Police on the democratic side of the isle, and I find it considerably more awful (it's closer to home). You might even say that I view these people as intolerant to the point that they threaten society.

However I wouldn't in a million years fire someone or yell at them, hate them, etc for being fashion police, even though I think they threaten society. Experience is the best teacher, and sometimes a person needs to make mistakes / destroy something beautiful in order to find the next level of understanding. Maybe for you that means destroying YC (though I hope you fail), and maybe for Trump voters that means (in a small way) destroying the US Government. I just wish you both wouldn't.

If you do not believe that Trump is an existential threat to American democracy, then, while I implore you to reconsider, I am content to agree to disagree.

But you might take that disagreement up first with Paul Graham and Sam Altman. They do not agree with you. They aggressively don't agree with you. They compare Donald Trump with a fascist dictator. I think they're right about Trump, and therefore that they're very wrong about continuing to endorse Thiel.

I would be doing Sam Altman no favors to pretend otherwise.

>They compare Donald Trump with a fascist dictator.

A bit childish, considering the slot the candidate is running for is not in a dictatorship. If you think Trump could convert the US to a dictatorship, I would like to see the evidence supporting this.

This is the situation: Identity politics makes gross hyperbole socially acceptable with ~50% of the population and "fightin words" with the other half.

Again, this is an argument you might first take up with Paul Graham and Sam Altman, because they disagree with you.

If you won't defend it, don't parrot it.

Again: I actually appreciate the comments here strenuously suggesting that Trump is no real threat to democracy. This is the sentiment Altman is making room for by continuing to endorse Thiel. Their relationship works to normalize Donald Trump.

If Sam Altman is comfortable with that, he should remain affiliated with Thiel.

Lol. "I appreciate this discussion because, just the fact that there is a discussion, proves I'm right"?

It proves your beliefs are not universally held by the community. It supports my points, not yours.

I am really confused by your comments here. You keep invoking Sam and Paul, but what does their business relationship with Thiel have to do with political support? Should they delete him from their contact list, too? What level of separation would you, tptacek, require of someone to disassociate themselves from a political opponent?

Your comments are infuriating in another way, because you're not actually debating what many people here are trying to talk about. You are dodging any defense of your assertions that Trump would be like a dictator, while backhandedly repeating it. That's not a conversation. That's preaching, and dodging.

Postscript: Trump can only "act like a dictator" so far as he can abuse the massive expansion of presidential power granted as much by the Democratic party as from Republicans. But I won't defend that here. I'll just tell you that other, smarter people think it too, and you should ask them about it.

I'm not discussing whether Trump would be a dictator because that's not my argument. If you believe Trump wouldn't be a dictator, I am entirely comfortable with your support of Peter Thiel.

>Your comments are infuriating in another way, because you're not actually debating what many people here are trying to talk about.

tptacek is focusing on the article. He has a very simple argument that Altman is acting shamefully.

This argument depends on Altman believing that Trump is a threat to democracy. It does not depend on anyone else believing that Trump is a threat to democracy.

tptacek wants to settle that, rather than get mired in arguing about Trump.

It's not preaching and dodging. It's focusing.

tptacek is arguing Sam A and Paul G are being inconsistent. I think maybe he could've made that point more clear by being a little less clever with his comments. :)

He is arguing with prejudice, so "clever" comments are by design.

No one has the influence to convert the US to anything overnight. However, I do think that normalizing the language of authoritarianism can have long-term negative effects on our democratic process.

The same thing can be said about the normalization of globalization and technological progress which allowed the politicians and the companies who pay for their campaigns to trade jobs for cheap flat screens.

Ignoring one just because the other is more obvious isn't any better in my book.

No need to assume that I'm ignoring anything. I'm willing to accept globalization and technological progress despite their many imperfections because they have real, tangible benefits to humanity. On the other hand, the only person that stands to gain from authoritarianism is its leader.

Yeah so you are willing to accept the collateral damage of those who don't stand to benefit and whose lives are being destroyed from that. This is just another version of the same. Not better, not worse, just different.

This is exactly why the anti-Trump hyperbole is dangerous.

If the world is ending and the country is at stake then both sides take up pitchforks.

Trumps authoritarianism is much less threatening than the same rhetoric from Obama or Hillary.

A lot of people are advocating authoritarianism- in fact thats the point of this whole thread- whether we should "excommunicate" Peter Theil.

But they don't seem to realize that leftism is essentially more authoritarian than rightism. Rightists want economic freedom, Leftists don't. (On social freedom neither of them want it- which is why Obama didn't try to legalize gay marriage, and picked Joe Biden the architect of the war on teen pot smokers as a running mate.)

Why don't liberals recognized that Hillary and Obama are authoritarians?

They're authoritarian in a sense too, but only in the ways you would expect people inside of an institution wanting to expand that institution's powers.

Trump is authoritarian in a different, more overt way. He's proposed extreme authoritarian moves like mass deportation, religious tests for entry to the US, camps, and directing the justice system at political enemies.

Maybe you don't see the difference between their versions of authoritarianism, but I do, and a lot of other people do too. It's an unfair comparison, and I think you should be able to recognize that.

There's historical evidence of people being elected, in democracies, and turning them into dictatorships. Part of the process looks the same as what Trump is doing. (e.g. saying the election is rigged therefore calling the process illegitimate, saying he'd put his political opponent in jail).

If that doesn't persuade you, what kind of evidence would persuade you?

Oh, I'm persuaded- just look at the actions of W and Obama - both moved the presidency closer to dictatorship.

As for elections not being legitimate, that clam was made repeatedly, with merit, after 2000. The democrats lost, and they lost due to widespread fraud.

Finally, Hillary belongs in jail. Basically all of the allegations have been proven by the wikileaks email releases.

When your opponent is a blatant criminal it's quite fair to say "you'll be in jail" and quite different than saying "I'm going to jail you for disagreeing with me" which is what people seem to want to clam he said (so basically they are lying about him. If he's so obviously reprehensible, why the need to lie about him?)

"Basically all of the allegations have been proven by the wikileaks email releases."

Hmm. Interesting. What allegations do you think were proven? I was under the (mistaken?) impression that they mostly proved things that seem bad, nothing that was specifically criminal. It's not like we didn't know the details of the whole email situation beforehand.

Also, thought experiment - how would you react if Hillary Clinton were to say that she would appoint a special prosecutor to jail Trump for sexual harassment?

Edit: BTW, afaik, the democrats' allegations in 2000 came after the results of the election. They didn't repeatedly claim ahead of time that the election was rigged. Not sure if this is a huge difference, just putting it out there.

"When your opponent is a blatant criminal it's quite fair to say "you'll be in jail" and quite different than saying "I'm going to jail you for disagreeing with me""

sigh

No, you still can't say that. Presidents cannot tell their attorney general who to prosecute or not to prosecute, even if the President thinks the person is a blatant criminal.

Maybe if you stopped to think about it a little bit, you would understand why allowing this could lead to very bad abuses of power?

Historical footnote that is not news to 'jimbokun but which I get the sense might be news to some of the people in this thread: the last time a President tried to interfere with the prerogative of their Attorney General, their administration collapsed as a result.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_Night_Massacre

Nobody ever ran for the Presidency of a dictatorship, that's kinda like their defining feature.

I'd point to Putin, Erdogan and Victor Orban as current strongmen who were elected democratically and slowly transformed their countries towards authoritarianism.

The parallels are undeniable: a bit of hatred against the "other", a lot of complaining about the media (and calling for laws to stop their "lying"), the hyper-masculine rhetoric and so on.

From what I understand of the US Constitution, there is a very good degree of separation of powers along with checks and balances to make this very difficult to implement in a practical sense, and would necessarily require both houses of congress as well as the supreme court to all be complicit in the act, thus requiring more than just one immoral person to pull off.

Indeed, but it's not one person. It's him and apparently 40% of the population, and large parts of the Republican establishment have also fallen in line (and many more would have if another 5% had switched to his side and made him the frontrunner).

These things don't happen overnight, and the single most important firewall may be the presidential term limit, and the absence of any similar office (like Russia's "prime minister" that Putin switched to when he was term-limited, installing Medvedev as his puppet in the meantime).

I'd hope that the limit is such a binary line that 8 year's aren't enough to change that perception. But who knows? Maybe he could have created a narrative to legitimize another term. Some sort of crisis... The usual.

But, luckily, the worst now seems unlikely to happen. It still seems important to run up the score, and then we'll see how his party deals with it. Ideologically, at least on economics, there isn't much left of what was called conservatism a year ago.

> Indeed, but it's not one person. It's him and apparently 40% of the population, and large parts of the Republican establishment have also fallen in line (and many more would have if another 5% had switched to his side and made him the frontrunner).

I don't agree with this 40% thing because it's not sufficient to say that because they support him, they support his worst ideas. Maybe they support his best ideas, and have a high degree of confidence that the worst will not happen. Nobody has foreknowledge of what a President will actually do in office. We can choose to use our best judgment and apply it while voting - that is why everyone gets one vote, to exercise that judgment.

To argue that those who are voting for him are in favor of racism, bigotry, etc. is a generalization. Would you generalize this way about followers of any religion? Many religions advocate some oppressive ideas, but we give followers the benefit of the doubt beforehand by saying that unless proved otherwise, let's first assume that they are peace-loving tolerant people of faith who believe only the "good parts" of this book, and not the violent parts. We don't seem to be doing that in politics, and I think that's wrong.

Also odd considering Trump spent the entire nomination campaign shilling his deal making abilities, and how he would lead by consensus instead of executive orders.

I don't see how YC denying Peter Thiel is anything more than political theatre it has no bearing on whether Trump will win or not.

All these distractions when the US has two states CT and IL in near bankruptcy due to pensions being 200%+ over state revenues, and a frightening national debt meaning Feds will likely not be able to bail them out. Wish everybody could panic over that not Thiel being involved with YC.

States can go bankrupt. The Federal government cannot.

"A bit childish, considering the slot the candidate is running for is not in a dictatorship."

True, but Trump's rhetoric indicates he has not grasped the distinction.

What is next? Perhaps YC should ask applicants for political affiliation?

I think you're wrong and I think the reason YC will not drop Theil is very practical: Theil is valuable for the underlying goal of the program (money) and dropping Theil would also alienate a huge (yes, yuuuge) swath of investors.

People --- more of them on my side of this debate than yours --- say this a lot. But I think more highly of Sam Altman than to believe he's standing by Peter Thiel, despite Thiel's work to elect someone both Altman and I believe to be an American Mussolini, simply out of financial expedience. It's that basic respect for Altman that motivates me to keep pressing this argument: the effort seems hopeful.

You'd support an affiliation filter?

Only if it's to filter out Republicans.

Looking for a little affirmative action? ;)

> Mussolini

This is the type of thing that really bothers me. Not only is that a ridiculous comparison, it's completely baseless and anti-intellectual. Trump has made a few off hand fascist remarks, but nothing that could substantiate him establishing legal dictatorship. So why even make that comparison? Just fuel the witch hunt?

You should direct that question to the person who made the comparison. I agree with it, but I think you'll understand this thread more if you ask the person I'm referencing.

You said both you and Altman felt that way. Maybe you didn't create the comparison but you just repeated it and said you agreed. It's hyperbole like that that makes people not care about your Clinton zealotry.

What, you think someone seeking power is going to stand at a podium and announce "I want a fascist dictatorship"?

He has been relentlessly attacking the legitimacy of democracy, encouraging political violence, stoking racial hatred, and threatening to imprison his opponent. On most days he does all of this before 11am.

How much of a fucking hint do people need?

No, we can just see right through the gross hyperbole that people are so fond of invoking. It's like the anti-circumcision folks saying things like:

"Circumcision is a barbaric practice in which babies have their genitals violently mutilated by religious nutjobs."

People that have actually been circumcised roll their eyes at such a phrase because it completely disregards the meaning and weight of the words "barbaric", "mutilate", "violent", etc.

> encouraging political violence

And where did actual violence happen? How is it that it's his rallies that are violently attacked?

And his headquarters that got firebombed.

Not only that, the attackers had the gall to draw swastika and call the victims nazis.

The parallels with what happened a while ago in Europe are interesting.

That particular fire's cause was never 100% cleared up, a false flag operation was suspected but never proven. But by 1939 it didn't matter anymore...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire

It doesn't matter what actually happens; it only matters what Trump haters want to happen. Trump is being taken to the woodshed over things he hasn't even done yet and may never do, yet Obama, the Clintons, the Bushes, et al--who actually have committed crimes--get free passes.

The Left is the party with the rent-a-mob

This got modded down, I guess, because people haven't seen the video that outright proves that Democrats are paying people to start violence at Trump events.

Willful ignorance

It was not Trump's headquarters that were firebombed. It was a NC county's GOP office. Those are very much not the same thing.

I agree that Trump is no Mussolini - however I see why it's tempting to compare them, as they are both slightly comical figures with a great regard for themselves.

The closer parallel would be to another Italian leader: Silvio Berlusconi. He was also a businessman, is also famous for his attitude to women, also authoritarian, etc. Both men are great showmen, and populists who 'speak their minds'.

Of course, any analogy is imperfect - but it seems closer than the whole Mussolini/Stalin/Hitler one.

Saying he's made "a few off hand fascist remarks" is a pretty generous characterization. I'd say he's shown strong contempt for the rule of law and division of powers, has gleefully stoked racist and misogynist resentments to excite his base, and has very literally encouraged violence at his rallies (and is continuing to lay the groundwork for significant election day violence for the first time in a century).

Does any of this mean he could establish a legal dictatorship? I don't know, hopefully not, but I would hardly say the comparisons are baseless.

What strikes me as actually anti-intellectual is the trend among Trump sympathizers (particularly the ones I see on HN and other more cerebral contexts) to refuse to acknowledge that the inflammatory language he's used during the campaign can and already has materially impacted the way millions of Americans perceive and act upon their world.

> to refuse to acknowledge that the inflammatory language he's used during the campaign can and already has materially impacted the way millions of Americans perceive and act upon their world

You're using real numbers here so I assume you're not just making things up. I've not seen those, but if you have those sources I'd like to see them.

Here's the thing. I'm much more concerned with policy than Trump's rhetoric. He's mostly insincere and anyone that has spent time with a politician can see that. His discussions and ideas around policy are as empty and baseless as his threats to build a wall. He's a performer. Not a threat.

It would behoove liberals to focus more on policy and demonstrations of how their candidate can positively change the economy than to continue feigning outrage about the things that come out of Trump's mouth.

"He's a performer. Not a threat."

What is this magical ability you have to see into Trump's mind and know which of his words he really means and which he doesn't?

it's weird then how, at this point, overwhelmingly violence has been against rather than by trump supporters. Except actually it's not, because when you label someone a fascist, then anything is justified in stopping it before it takes hold. so you have people trying to jump the stage, you have headquarters being firebombed,you have physical assaults of people outside events, people being beaten up for wearing trump hats.

Violence against Trump supporters? I watch live feeds from rallies on both sides.

I've seen Democrats calling out to protesters and hecklers, suggesting that those protesters are wasting their time trying to gain support for their candidate, and reminding them of the expectation of civil discourse. Mocking, sure, but not "hate speech" (if you'll forgive the loaded term) and not violence.

I've seen Republicans punch, kick, slap and spit on protesters and hecklers, and shouting that they have no right to be there. Demanding the arrest of the protester, in some cases, with the candidate actually suggesting that, back when "America was great", the police would've locked them up sooner, or that the person who had the audacity to speak out would often be carried out on a stretcher. That seems quite violent to me.

I'll admit I may have missed something, as I can't watch every rally, but I've watched an equal number from both sides as far as I can recall.

How is it baseless and anti-intellectual? If Trump were elected, he would be able to push through an agenda by exercising a significant aggressive minority of the population. This power to summon millions (who call legislators, picket, rally, etc.), who are compelled to participate if only for the spectacle, would be unique among American presidents.

They can agree with that and still continue working with Thiel. You can be against fascism and but still be against creating a society where everyone must get in line politically or else be shunned.

I don't need people to get in line politically. I would be content with them not bundling millions of dollars for Donald Trump before getting up on stage at the RNC and claiming, as Thiel did, to speak for Silicon Valley in claiming that Trump is the only honest candidate in the race. I'm a simple sort of guy. My needs are not complicated.

I have never heard him claim to speak for Silicon Valley.

The question becomes then, what do you consider your line. Is this about his outsized financial support? What if he gave his RNC speech and only donated $10,000?

Then --- respectfully --- you have never heard him speak in favor of Donald Trump, and you should go watch his speech before arguing about it. It's pretty scary. Maybe after seeing it, you'll understand the vehemence of the anti-Thiel sentiment.

I re-read his transcript before I published my comment. He says he's from Silicon Valley (which is true) but not that he speaks for Silicon Valley.

No, that is not all he says about Silicon Valley. Read the whole thing.

Re-read. "We don’t accept such incompetence in Silicon Valley, and we must not accept it from our government." I think using the word "we" is the closest he gets to your interpretation, but even here it's clear to me that his views are his own.

I think you're making the right argument, I just don't think you're making it super clear.

(I think) what you're saying, is 'There is nothing wrong with supporting an opposing viewpoint. There is a huge problem with supporting Benito Mussolini. Sam Altman has compared Donald Trump to Benito Mussolini. Because of this, Sam should have a huge problem with supporting Donald Trump. Peter Thiel supports Donald Trump. Because of this, Sam should have a huge problem with his association with Peter Thiel.'

Keeping my political views out of the equation, I agree with that line of logic. The problem I think Sam is facing and why I think it's such a difficult issue is this.

Donald Trump is not Benito Mussolini. Unless he wins the presidency, he won't even have a remote opportunity at becoming him. So I think Sam is in sort of a lose-lose situation. On one hand, Sam remains steadfast in his decision, Donald Trump wins the election, Donald Trump enacts changes that make him on par with Benito Mussolini and Sam has now been complicit in the support of someone on par with Benito Mussolini. On the other hand, if Donald Trump loses or even if he wins and is anything less than a Benito Mussolini look-alike, he has effectively suppressed the support of an opposing political viewpoint.

I'm not pretending to know the solution, not even a little bit. I do think it's important to recognize how difficult of situation Sam is in.

That's not in fact the argument I am making. I do not support ostracizing or blacklisting all Trump supporters, just as I wouldn't have supporting ostracizing all Republicans in the wake of our catastrophic war on Iraq. However: I am comfortable with calling on people to divest from investments in the architects of the war on Iraq, like Doug Feith and Donald Rumsfeld, and I am comfortable with calling on Altman to divest from Peter Thiel, a key figure in the Trump campaign.

I didn't mean specifically in the comment above, I meant earlier.

'If you do not believe that Trump is an existential threat to American democracy, then, while I implore you to reconsider, I am content to agree to disagree. But you might take that disagreement up first with Paul Graham and Sam Altman. They do not agree with you. They aggressively don't agree with you. They compare Donald Trump with a fascist dictator. I think they're right about Trump, and therefore that they're very wrong about continuing to endorse Thiel. I would be doing Sam Altman no favors to pretend otherwise.'

It seemed like you were getting attacked from all angles, so I chose a comment that didn't have much on it. I wasn't trying to attack your argument (from above). I was attempting to put it into a more objective light.

False equivalence to Rumsfeld and Feith (and interesting you leave out Rice and Powell). What about somebody who contributed money to the reelection of George W. Bush in 2004?

I'm glad you brought Rice up, because this site had absolutely no problem calling for a boycott of Dropbox over their inclusion of Rice as a director.

(I don't support that boycott, because I think Rice's role in the Iraq war is far more complicated than that of Rumsfeld or Feith, who are the literal architects of the war plan she consistently criticized. Rice isn't blameless, but she's no Doug Feith.)

@tptacek Drew Houston defended her and she is still on the board. And people haven't mass defected from Dropbox.

And still a false equivalence between someone who supports Trump because of economic policy to architects of the war in Iraq.

Altman's ulterior motive here is that it's bad for business if yComb departs from Thiel. And at the end of the day it comes down to money, so regardless of what Altman says, they will never part ways and ultimately become directly competitive with one of SV largest venture investors.

> I think they're right about Trump, and therefore that they're very wrong about continuing to endorse Thiel.

I think it's a very slippery slope to base endorsement on a person's political actions. It raises some important questions:

-Do you stop endorsing and associating with everyone who supports Trump? Where do you draw the line logically?

-Why can't people with opposing views work together and agree to disagree on the elections and let the votes speak?

-I imagine Trump haters and Hillary haters have very strong reasons,facts,opinions and speculative thinking to backup their claims that the other candidate is a threat to democracy, will start WW3, corrupt practices etc. This should lead to well informed debate as it seems to be happening here but without calling for distancing from person X for endorsing a different candidate. What will you achieve by distancing people based on differing views? A monoculture? Differing views and discussion on the views is one of the things that makes a democracy work.

I believe Sam is right on this. It's Thiel's money, he can support whichever candidate he wants (it's legal). His views differ from Sam's and PG's, and people seem to extend it to YC as an organization and call for distancing Thiel from YC. It achieves nothing, and if anything weakens democracy.

> I think it's a very slippery slope to base endorsement on a person's political actions.

What exactly else do you propose? Endorsing people based on their actions (all actions are political; no actions are apolitical; that's just how it works, you can't quit the game) is the only ethical position which makes any sense at all.

This has gone far enough. The only effective response is to judge by actions and refuse to work with any Y Combinator company until Thiel is fired (and Altman resigns).

> What exactly else do you propose?

Let people have differing opinions and continue working with them. If Thiel is doing something illegal, and goes against the spirit of the Constitution, call him out for and push for legal action.

> The only effective response is to judge by actions and refuse to work with any Y Combinator company until Thiel is fired (and Altman resigns).

Fire Thiel for supporting Trump with a donation? Seriously? What is this, a dictatorship? Everyone who disagrees is silenced? You want Altman to resign? Genuine question : Do you hear yourself?

Thiel cannot be fired by Sam Altman because he is not an employee of Sam Altman. His relationship with Altman is that of an endorsee, and all that's being asked of Altman is that he stop endorsing members of Trump's campaign.

> His relationship with Altman is that of an endorsee,

Noted. Should have been careful there.

> and all that's being asked of Altman is that he stop endorsing members of Trump's campaign.

Why? It makes no sense to me. Why can't people have their opinions and agree to disagree on ones they don't agree on. Don't you feel such calls go against free speech?

They can. What they cannot do is work effectively to prevent bigotry, sexism, and the destruction of the American economy and political fabric while simultaneously endorsing and working with people doing the exact opposite. People keep dancing around the fact that Thiel is not simply a Trump supporter, or even just a Trump donor. He is a Trump campaign surrogate --- a member of the campaign.

I considered responding to this, but I'm not sure how to have a meaningful conversation with someone who engages in such hyperbole.

I understand your frustration. The desire to respond in a constructive way is necessary for us to go forward, especially now. For me, a part of that is to try my best to (a) give the people I'm talking to the benefit of the doubt that they're engaging in good faith; and (b) try not to use language that escalates any tensions. Online text discussion makes this especially fraught, given its low-bandwidth: we only get the text, without the benefit of other channels such as voice inflection and body language.

One tool HN provides is the ability to view a user's other comments, which can provide a gauge to measure whether someone is engaging in good faith.

And there's always the choice to not respond. If you think someone is just looking for attention, not responding might be the right course of action. Once people get angry or frustrated, it's probably better to just back off and try again some other time. And in general I'm thinking of myself as well to those I'm engaging with.

Or if you don't think you have something meaningful to add. Sometimes that's hard to do because you think the conversation is important and want to participate.

Please don't interpret anything I've written as criticism of either you or tptacek. For the record, from what I've seen both of you are thoughtful and engaging honestly. I also hope this doesn't come off as preachy. These are just the heuristics I've been using. Some others are Rapoport's rules [0], which I think are really insightful. I'd love to hear how others approach this as well.

I've thought about all these things in writing this comment, and I'm still unsure whether I should click the "reply" button. I do think it's important to try to keep these types of conversations going, and I know I need the practice, so in good faith I'm willing to put my neck out another time.

[0] https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapo...

Valid points. My comment wasn't meant to be "frustration", but steering the conversation back toward productivity. I definitely can see why it came out as frustration, and in that sense I deserve the downvotes (this is not to imply that you were among the downvoters). Thanks for sharing the link.

>Why? It makes no sense to me. Why can't people have their opinions and agree to disagree on ones they don't agree on. Don't you feel such calls go against free speech?

I'm pretty sure this is a fundamental misunderstanding of free speech. Free speech means the governing body can't forbid you from expressing your opinion or punish you for it.

It does not mean other people or organizations can't take action based on their disagreement with your opinions and it doesn't mean expressing an opinion has to be without consequence from anything.

Legally, that's what free speech means, but philosophically Free Speech can certainly be more general than just related to the government.

Voltaire's "...but I'll defend to the death your right to say it," comes to mind.

We'd generally feel the same way if a company were enforcing completely arbitrary abridgment of free speech on its employees. Or if a private school were (legally) kicking kids out because they supported Black Lives Matter.

I did forget one thing that still falls under free speech (even legally probably), aside from the state not stopping you from expressing your opinion, it should protect your ability to do so. As in, not allowing anyone to silence you, but even that has its boundaries since silencing someone is not the same as not perpetuating what they say.

The examples you gave are ones where the effect on that person's life would be so fundamental that it could easily be considered an intrusion into their rights.

Boycotting a company or choosing to end a business partnership are completely different in that regard.

I believe Thiel only responds to economic pressure.

I am intending to use my economic leverage, and advocating others do the same, by refusing to work with Thiel and his enablers, which include Y Combinator and companies funded by them. (It's not just the Trump thing, by any means, that's the end of a very very very long list.)

Altman has also shown himself to be – at best – unaware of the moral dimensions of his actions, and that's not someone I want to have to deal with. So I won't and I suggest that you don't.

Same reason I won't work for an oil supermajor. I don't want to be party to pollution.

Everyone else is free to act as they choose, but I hope enough people agree with me that it weights the needle. If companies can't hire talent, they die; so what talent can do is refuse.

> The only effective response is to judge by actions and refuse to work with any Y Combinator company until Thiel is fired (and Altman resigns)

You want to shun people (YC companies) for not shunning people (YC) for not shunning people (Thiel) for supporting Trump?

That's people at three levels removed from Trump. Is that really what you want?

Life's too short to work with pollutors.

And yes; I want working with Thiel to be a large net economic loss, because I believe that's the language he understands. This is the only effective tool I have to try and do that. It's nowhere near enough, but it's what I've got.

So... will you actually put your money where your mouth is? Will you not associate with companies or products that were helped by Y-Combinator until they publicly reject YC?

Will you not use HackerNews, Docker, DropBox, Reddit, AirBnB, DoorDash, Stripe, Pebble, or any of the rest?

I won't work for any of them.

You say "thats the language he understands", but that's a really dangerous way to be thinking.

Look at it this way: assume you support gay marriage, and the supreme court had gone the other way. Some business partner finds out you support gay marriage, and they vehemently disagree with that, so they refuse to do business with you. They tell all of their other anti-gay acquainances to also stop doing business with you.

What would you think of that? Would it make you reconsider, would it make you suddenly be against gay marriage? More likely, it would piss you off and create even more division.

That is literally all that cutting business ties with Thiel would do, create division. Cutting a person off because you disagree on something political will never change their mind, it will only make them hate you right back, and suddenly you have two separate groups.

Remember after world war 1 when the world went "screw Germany", and ordered massive reparations, and shunned them from everything? Remember how that just caused animosity and hated right back? It triggered another, bigger war.

After WW2, on the other hand, the allies integrated. They actually worked at meshing together and creating something better, and it worked. Germany is no longer heavily nazi, or even kind of nazi.

For another great example, see the religious history of England.

Cutting off Theil and having everyone who doesn't support Trump boycott him just sends him a big middle finger, and makes a big rift that is going to keep causing problems in a big casual loop.

> I think it's a very slippery slope to base endorsement on a person's political actions.

Is it though? Let's take it a bit further: would YC be expected to continue to endorse, say, a confirmed and outspoken Fascist?

How about someone who had donated to organizations with an explicit, stated objective of reducing the rights of women and minorities? Or supporting a political organization which intends to carry out ethnic cleansing?

Are we to believe there is no line to be drawn, anywhere on this continuum?

> Are we to believe there is no line to be drawn, anywhere on this continuum?

The problem is that the line being proposed here separates roughly 50% of the population of America, possibly more. You are basically saying "I know that even though I may technically be in a minority, my moral convictions are so strong that I must impose them on you and deter you from your way of thinking by any means necessary, even if it means firing you from your job."

> The problem is that the line being proposed here separates roughly 50% of the population of America, possibly more.

That's not a moral argument, just an appeal to popularity. The same could be said in 1932 Germany and it would be just as wrong then. To be clear I'm not suggesting Trump is Hitler, but your argument is flawed.

That's a flaw in democracy, not my argument. Democracy relies on the majority having good moral judgment. If you're in the minority, too bad. I'm sure there are lots of religious people that would like to impose their morals on the majority, and I think you and I both agree that's not a good idea. But now that your group might be minority (by a slight margin), suddenly it's okay to do anything it takes to impose your morals on the majority?

> Is it though? Let's take it a bit further: would YC be expected to continue to endorse, say, a confirmed and outspoken Fascist?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy

Moreover, loosely associating is characteristically different from positively endorsing.

Our disagreement isn't on the question of Trump's existential threat status, it's on the question of what should be done about it (incidentally, the same disagreement you seem to have with Sam Altman and Paul Graham).

If you have a different solution than tossing out the heathens, I'm all ears. In Sam's blog post the solution he decides on is continuing dialogue. While this may be an imperfect solution, it seems to me a less imperfect solution than purging, as that generally results in communities being destroyed.

As long as an ideology is small enough, completely shunning it's adherents is actually the best strategy, because everyone is susceptible to social pressure.

But I fear that at 40% of the population, and with the social bubble people have build around them, Trump's neo-fascist movement may be beyond the reach of such tactics.

> it's on the question of what should be done about it

Everything that is legal. When, in the past, Republicans advocated trickle-down economics you possibly had a chance to convince people with arguments.

But I'm equally pessimistic about convincing anybody rationally. Trump and his supporters live in a reality completely divorced from any actually existing facts. It's this world with FEMA death camps and vast conspiracies planning to use the national guard to invade Texas and sell it to Mexico. There is no overlap anymore in what sources, what types of arguments, what axiomatic moral laws the two tribes consider valid.

Both strategies seeming comparably useless, I decided at some point that, when my grandchildren ask me in 40 years or so I want to be able to say "I did everything that's legal".

> As long as an ideology is small enough, completely shunning it's adherents is actually the best strategy

Until the thousandth time you use this tactic, and the number of people shunned begins to outnumber the ones doing the shunning.

> when my grandchildren ask me in 40 years or so I want to be able to say "I did everything that's legal".

I'm sorry to hear this. I hope in time you can come to focus on the similarities you have to your fellow humans rather than what sounds like a myopic focus on purely ideological differences.

As I said in GGGP to excuse your actions:

> sometimes a person needs to make mistakes / destroy something beautiful in order to find the next level of understanding

"Purely ideological differences" like whether sexual assault is okay and whether Muslims can be American citizens. Nope. Not going to just "agree to disagree" on that shit.

You sound just like the republicans in 2008 when a gasp black president was elected. Oh dear, the world is ending, the end times are coming! What's the world coming to! We are doomed. A socialist Kenyan Muslim is in the whitehouse!

What actually happened? Nothing. If you looked at the country for the last 8 years you wouldn't be able to tell whether a republican or democratic was in the whitehouse.

Same thing will happen if trump gets in. A lot of talk, but little action.

You really think that opposing Obama because he's black is comparable to opposing Trump because he incites violence and encourages racism and xenophobia and speaks highly of dictators and brags about sexual assault?

You want to rethink that?

I consider Obama one of the best most rational presidents the US have ever had.

But that rationality also gave us execution by drone without trial.

Don't take a beautiful and cool facade for anything than that. Behind the scenes its raw power and they are all, everyone of them, in the game for the power.

I'm not asserting that in any way Obama is perfect and have no problem with people criticizing his actions. I do take issue with comparing opposition of Obama based on his race with opposition of Trump based on his positions.

It does not follow that because a black president did an acceptable job that any president would do an acceptable job. Nor is opposing a president for being black morally equivalent to opposing a president for the things he says he wants to do.

Obama also lied about a lot and yet the world didn't end. Something about "transparent administration" ring a bell? "Closing Guantanamo" perhaps? Doesn't this set the precedent that you can't really believe anything a candidate says before he is elected? To be fair I don't single out Obama for lying. All candidates do it.which is why I don't worry about trump.

And again, I am in no way saying that Obama is above criticism. I'm saying that opposing him for being black is not at all the same as opposing Trump for his positions.

I think it's also not wise to treat all broken campaign promises equally. There's a big difference in voting for someone expecting that they won't accomplish everything they promise and voting for someone hoping that they won't accomplish everything that they promise. The former is hope that your candidate will do what they say. The latter is hope that your candidate is an outright liar or incompetent.

I find it so bizarre that supporters look at Trump and say, "oh, he's just making empty promises and he'll never do that." His empty promises are that he'll violate the constitution to enshrine religious discrimination into laws! It seems so fucked up to vote for someone hoping that they're just a pandering amoral liar who won't deliver on their promises.

Republicans were not opposed to Obama because of his race, though for the past 8 years that has been the excuse to avoid talking about the issues.

And once again, Liberals are not talking about Trumps positions, but merely calling him racist and sexist.

"It seems so fucked up to vote for someone hoping that they're just a pandering amoral liar who won't deliver on their promises."

Well, the charitable view of Hillary supporters is that this is what they are doing. Otherwise, you really think journalists should be taken out by drone for publishing things embarrassing to hillary?

You really think free speech rights should be taken away from people who make a movie critical of hillary? (That's what "Citizens United" was about - the supreme court defended free speech for a group that made a movie critical of hillary-- and since then we've been hearing how evil that ruling is.)

> Republicans were not opposed to Obama because of his race, though for the past 8 years that has been the excuse to avoid talking about the issues.

Sure. The birther movement was about the issues.

> And once again, Liberals are not talking about Trumps positions, but merely calling him racist and sexist.

This is patently untrue. Trumps positions have been widely derided as unconstitutional and poorly thought out. The fact that his racism and sexism are talked about doesn't mean his positions haven't also been widely criticized.

> Well, the charitable view of Hillary supporters is that this is what they are doing. Otherwise, you really think journalists should be taken out by drone for publishing things embarrassing to hillary?

What are you talking about?

> You really think free speech rights should be taken away from people who make a movie critical of hillary? (That's what "Citizens United" was about - the supreme court defended free speech for a group that made a movie critical of hillary-- and since then we've been hearing how evil that ruling is.)

Citizens United was about political ad spending by corporations. It's a mischaracterization to present the case as if it were about Hillary trying to shut down a critical film. It was the FEC trying to enforce the BCRA.

> Well, the charitable view of Hillary supporters is that this is what they are doing. Otherwise, you really think journalists should be taken out by drone for publishing things embarrassing to hillary?

> What are you talking about?

I think they are trying to make a reference to a previously-unknown conservative blog which claimed they had an anonymous quote from a "State Department source" saying that HRC asked about approving a drone strike on Julian Assange.

The claimed source has not gone to any professional news outlets. The blog has not published anything else of note, and by quick survey of other posts, its author has a clear agenda against HRC. I'll let you all draw your own conclusions.

"Republicans were not opposed to Obama because of his race"

Many, maybe most Republicans were not opposed to Obama for that reason.

But the Trump campaign and his supporters have made it clear a non-trivial number of Republicans oppose him for that reason.

hey now, the blame for Guantanomo not being closed falls directly on congressional republicans, not on Obama's lack of trying. this is the case for most of his failed endeavors (nominating court justices ring a bell?). there's plenty of stuff he does deserve blame for. most notable i think is that although he effectively ended the Iraq war, he rescinded his decision to end the Afghanistan war in 2014. regardless, Obama and Trump are not in the same category in any respect, not even as politicians.

You reinforce my point. The blame for what goes on in Washington does not fall on the president! The older I get the more I think "commander in chief" is just a fancy title for "talking bobble head". We're not electing a leader. We're electing a media personality.

The President of the United States is not commander in chief of the country or even the government.

He is commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States

US Constitution, Art 2. Sec 2. https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleii#section2

>> But that rationality also gave us execution by drone without trial.

The point with smart weapons like drones is that they kill people in a few meters radius. They don't take out a whole village, or more.

If a country should be in war and/or hunt irregular terror organizations is debatable. It should be debated.

But complaining about one of the most humane (relative the alternatives) ways of waging war seems just weird.

The negative thing I have to say about Obama is that he didn't do more to stop the horror in Syria, with chemical weapons, millions driven from the country and hundreds of thousands dead. But I am not certain I have a better solution either.

I understand the point about smart weapons it does not change the fact that the US is doing targeted killing without trial or are still keep people in guantanamo and so many other things that we are fine with.

Yet somehow the rhetorics of Trump trumps all that.

You just repeated your position and ignored what I wrote. I will assume that means you have no serious arguments.

If you really don't understand: A serious argument would be showing that it is not a war situation -- or that you have to put enemy combatants into a court before you can shoot at them.

(Edit: To argue that it is wrong or illegal to declare war and hunt e.g. alQ is not relevant either. I made that distinction in the previous comment -- and didn't take a position.)

I don't agree with the interpretation of war. Lets just start there.

So, give references to international law about what exactly qualify as a war -- and what does not?

Because obviously, the top law specialists don't agree with you -- presidents aren't above the law.

Edit: Here is the US law about unlawful combatants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act_of_20... It came after a decision from the US Supreme Court. (Another Supreme Court decision says the unlawful combatants are protected by the Geneva protocols.)

Edit 2: I asked for references and got nothing in the answer below. Enough for me.

You mean just like when 9/11 allowed for the idea of pre-emptive strikes to be legalized?

Law specialist have no understanding of what is the right law, they have an understanding of how you can interpret the law.

These are two very different things you don't need to be a law specialist to have an informed opinion about the definition of what constitutes war.

Well Trump openly claimed he wanted to torture terrorist suspects and kill terrorists' families. So yeah, I think that's worse than targeted drone strikes on terrorists. While I have significant concerns about the drone program, I also recognize that we are at war with certain groups and capturing these people in order to get them to trial is mostly infeasible. I don't consider drone strikes to be worse than special forces strikes. I do consider torture and murdering families to be considerably worse.

I find Guantanamo morally indefensible.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/06/politics/donald-trump-torture/...

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/03/politics/donald-trump-kill-ter...

Please explain this, I really don't understand this argument:

>> I find Guantanamo morally indefensible.

Guantanamo -- afaik, you can keep enemy combatants in prison until after the war. E.g. the conflict in Afghanistan is still active. So what is the problem?

(Then we have the whole point about the people at Guantanamo being combatants that didn't follow the war of laws. Do they have any rights, at all? Please use very good primary sources if you somehow argue that combatants that targets civilians have more rights than prisoners of war... That is contradicting the idea of those laws.)

The fundamental problem is that we are not at war with any nation here. We have repeatedly stated that we are at war with terrorism. So we've got a bunch of citizens of foreign nations that we took captive on the suspicion that they were engaged in terrorist activity, but we can't prove it. They aren't really prisoners of war, and there is no war at the end of which we can reasonably expect an exchange of prisoners. They're stuck in indefinite limbo with no trial and no expectation of release.

I don't know how we can defend indefinite detention of people on the suspicion that they might have engaged in terrorist activity. It's basically just kidnapping to hold them this way forever. I think there's a legitimate argument that taking them captive to interrogate them is reasonable, and perhaps even some moderate time of detention. Giving them a trial would also be reasonable. I don't think there's a legitimate argument for holding foreign nationals without trial indefinitely.

Your whole position is based on a claim that there must exist a nation state to have a "war".

You also claim that the laws of war are not applicable to the remaining types of military conflicts (with clans/tribes, any organization that is geographically spread, etc, etc).

Do you have references? [Edit: The references need to show that the laws of war don't apply to these other conflicts, too.] Also not that the world's law experts don't seem to agree [Edit: with you. See link in edit at bottom.]

(Note that by your definition we need a new word for civil wars -- at least one side is not a nation state. We also need a new word for most of the military conflicts through history -- and today. And so on.)

(Also, you shouldn't argue against what politicians say in public speeches, for the same reason you shouldn't believe advertisements...)

----

Re Guantanamo:

You ignored my argument.

Again: Afaik, you can keep combatants prisoner until after the hostilities. Which are still continuing. [Edit: This seems to be the relevant part in the Geneva Conventions -- https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xs... ]

The Taliban had a government, they were a nation. So it qualify as a "war", even according to your definition.

The Taliban and their allies are still fighting.

Are you claiming that conflict stopped being a war when they lost the capital? Please give good references...

[Edit: Here seems to be the relevant definitions in USA, I saw in another place that their High Court argued that the Geneva conventions was relevant under US law also for unlawful combatants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act_of_20... ]

> Your whole position is based on a claim that there must exist a nation state to have a "war".

No, my position is based on the fact that our treaties on the treatment of prisoners of war apply to nation states. Certainly we can be at war with a non-state actor (we clearly are). But our treaties around prisoners of war are not directly applicable, as the past administrations have made clear.

For wars not against nation states, there must still be some sort of due process for prisoners. The idea that being at war with some entity gives us the right to retain arbitrary people indefinitely, without even proving that they have participated in that entity, is morally unacceptable.

> Do you have references? The world's law experts don't seem to agree...

Do you have an references to the claim that law experts don't agree? There are a few treaties about war prisoners but they apply to signatories, which clans etc are not.

Beyond that, "laws of war" have historically been defined by the victors. I'm not aware of a body of law that applies to wars universally, nor do I believe one could exist. (Who could enforce it?)

> that by your definition we need a new word for civil wars -- at least one side is not a nation state.

You could argue that for civil wars at least both sides would effectively be signatories if the nation as a whole was a signatory before the war began.

> You also claim that the Taliban never was a government? They had control of a large part of Afghanistan. And they are still fighting, along with their allies. I assume you don't argue that a war stops being a war when one side lose control of their capital?

I don't claim any of that. I claim that Afghanistan is at least officially no longer ruled by the Taliban. We don't recognize them as the legitimate government. If we accept that we are no longer at war with Afghanistan then we must according to the Geneva conventions release any prisoners of war captured during the war with Afghanistan.

Any enemy combatants not deemed prisoners of war should be given some sort of due process. Again, the idea that being at war against terrorism gives us the right to indefinitely detain arbitrary people is morally unacceptable.

> You ignored my argument. > Again: Afaik, you can keep combatants prisoner until after the hostilities. Which are still continuing. [Edit: This seems to be the relevant part in the Geneva Conventions -- https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xs.... ] > The Taliban had a government, they were a nation. So it qualify as a "war", even according to your definition. > The Taliban and their allies are still fighting. > Are you claiming that conflict stopped being a war when they lost the capital? Please give good references...

I don't see that I made any of those claims, nor do I feel like I ignored your argument. I don't believe that being a signatory on the Geneva convention in any way gives us a right to indefinitely detain people with no reasonable path to release and no proof of involvement in the conflict. Even if legally we can make that argument, I think it's morally repugnant.

>No, my position is based on the fact that our treaties on the treatment of prisoners of war apply to nation states.

No, they do not apply only to nation states. They apply to combatants, whether of a nation state or not. See the Geneva conventions.

Generally referring to the "Geneva conventions" is not a useful citation. There are hundreds of articles in the conventions. Can you point out where the conventions purport to apply to all combatants?

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/ART/375-59...

In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance. Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.

By my reading, this applies to conflicts between signatories or conflicts involving a signatory and a non-signatory who accepts the terms of the convention. So not strictly nation states, but also not every party to every conflict.

GCIV, Article 3 i.e. the "Next" after your link is about conflicts within a country, in cases where the parties are not High Contracting Parties.

This is treated as customary international law, based on a UN Security Council conclusion in 1993 making it binding also for non-signatories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention

For instance, break it anywhere in the world by killing civilians, and enter my country (say, as a refugee), and you'll be prosecuted if caught. There's even a recent example (a man got life sentence for what he did in Rwandan conflict; the life sentence here is practically something like 12 years).

Interesting. I didn't realize the UN Security Council had passed such a resolution. Thanks.

I'm still not clear that this applies since our enemies do not meet the requirements outlined beyond being signatories (what with insignia and organized ranks etc). Article 3 also refers to conflicts not of an international nature. I'm not sure how that's interpreted. Is that civil wars? Or just wars involving non-state actors? The "war on terror" certainly has an international character.

You knew that 3 hours earlier, when I wrote this in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12738620

[...]

Unlawful combatants don't have access to the rights under war laws, except Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions (see quote below).

Hence, the question is not if you treat them as POWs or as civilians -- but if they have the protection of a POW at all.

-----

[This was my reference for the previous claims. The Wikipedia link go to the Convention. I earlier referenced the relevant US law and their Supreme Court, which also discuss this.]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant

The Geneva Conventions do not recognize any lawful status for combatants in conflicts not involving two or more nation states. A state in such a conflict is legally bound only to observe Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions and may ignore all the other Articles. But each one of them is completely free to apply all or part of the remaining Articles of the Convention.[6]

> You knew that 3 hours earlier, when I wrote this

First, no. You asserted it repeatedly without a compelling reference. Ptaipale provided a verifiable claim about the UN Security Council affirming that this had become international law. You linked to an article that happened to make a similar claim but had no reference to the UN Security Council decision (nor does the citation it references so far as I can see).

Second, I admitted a gap in my knowledge and your response was to come in and assert that you told me the same earlier (which you actually didn't). If the point of your arguing was to educate, this is a really poor technique. Don't respond to someone acknowledging a mistake/misunderstanding/knowlege gap by trying to make it about how "right" you are. It comes off as petty.

If a Wikipedia link with multiple good sources already in the introduction isn't enough for someone without a clue on a subject, I should have left the discussion.

My personal heuristic to avoid grief in the future: Don't discuss with anyone that dismiss Wikipedia without references... no, without having primary sources for references.

Thank you for that. The net and HN will be better for me.

(Edit: The UN and the UN Security council make resolutions all the time. I doubt a majority are followed. :-) E.g. http://articles.latimes.com/2002/oct/17/world/fg-resolution1... )

Your wikipedia link doesn't cover the UN resolution, nor does the citation, which appears to be ICRC's commentary of the treaty. The article you linked does assert it, but without any significant support aside from the ICRC's commentary.

I'm glad I could help.

>> No, my position is based on the fact that our treaties on the treatment of prisoners of war apply to nation states. [...] our treaties around prisoners of war are not directly applicable, as the past administrations have made clear.

(I asked for references to support that claim already -- got nothing from dpark...)

What your position is based on, according to yourself, is wrong. I added this link around ten minutes before you posted that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act_of_20...

It address exactly those unlawful combatants and laws.

It was drafted as a result of a decision by the US the Supreme Court. (As I noted, another Supreme Court decision was that the Geneva Convention do cover unlawful combatants.)

(I also added a link to the Geneva Protocols, discussing when a POW can be sent home.)

Enough, bye.

> I asked for references to support that claim already -- got nothing from dpark...

Where in the Geneva conventions does it say that they apply to all warring parties? I'm genuinely asking. My understanding is that they apply to signatories only:

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/ART/375-59...

So, it applies to conflicts between signatories or conflicts involving a signatory and a non-signatory who accepts the terms of the convention. So you're right that it's not strictly nation states. But it's also not every combat participant by my reading.

> What your position is based on, according to yourself, is wrong. I added this link around ten minutes before you posted that:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act_of_20...

> It address exactly those unlawful combatants and laws.*

This is not a treaty. Also, the problem with retaining people indefinitely doesn't go away because we pass a law declaring that we can call them combatants. We know that we have detained innocent people in Guantanamo for extended periods of time. You can legally call them whatever you want, but it's still morally repugnant to hold innocent people indefinitely. (It is morally repugnant to hold anyone indefinitely without trial because it indicates an unwillingness or inability to establish guilt.)

>> Where in the Geneva conventions does it say that they apply to all warring parties?

[Edit: ptaipale discussed that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12738768 too.]

Unlawful combatants don't have access to the rights under war laws, except Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions (see quote below).

Hence, the question is not if you treat them as POWs or as civilians -- but if they have the protection of a POW at all.

That is more than enough to show my argument correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant

Since you have no foot to stand on -- bye.

------

(A note that doesn't matter for my argument: Out of interest you might want to read this and the "See also" for the page, especially the "No longer enemy combatant" link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant#Internation... The US Supreme Court seems to agree that unlawful combatants should get protection by the Geneva Conventions -- but this doesn't matter for my argument anyway.)

Just to provide a reference for what you say: to have a "war", one does not need a nation state. And the Geneva conventions on laws of war do apply to armies and militias regardless of whether they are of a recognized nation state. The conventions apply in civil wars, too.

The Daish (IS) fighters are in gross breach of laws of war even though no one recognizes their "state".

The collection of the Geneva conventions is available in many places, here is the site of IRCR:

https://www.icrc.org/en/war-and-law/treaties-customary-law/g...

There used to be a nice, simple presentation of the laws of war at http://avalon.law.yale.edu/ but now you get 500 Internal Server Error for the archives.

However, to be "at war with terrorism" is unfortunately a very difficult position. Definition of terrorism if by necessity quite vague and problematic. (What is "freedom fighter" for one party or at one time may be a "terrorist" for another or at another time).

-- Edit: I see you sourced the ICRC site for conventions yourself.

"Then we have the whole point about the people at Guantanamo being combatants that didn't follow the war of laws."

The problem is we know now many of the people at Guantanamo do not fit that description. And we don't know how many do and how many don't, because there is no legal process to make the determination.

After WWII, at least there was some kind of war crimes tribunal before executing people for war crimes. But Guantanamo is some kind of horrific, Kafka-esque limbo, where people can be sent for being in the wrong place at the wrong time or accused by someone just wanting to collect a bounty, where people can be held forever and tortured on a whim, with no prospect for any kind of closure, ever.

>> But Guantanamo is some kind of horrific, Kafka-esque limbo

You ignored the main point on what you comment on. To quote myself: afaik, you can keep enemy combatants in prison until after the war

>> The problem is we know now many of the people at Guantanamo do not fit that description.

Of course, most everyone claim to be innocent everywhere. Is there a legal process on a battle field when POWs are taken? (Rhetorical question.)

(I might note that I can't see how Guantanamo is much worse than the rest of the horrible US prison system.)

Here is the US law about unlawful combatants, etc. It seems the US is bound to the Geneva Convention also for them, according to their Supreme court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act_of_20...

Please discuss it with the law professors in the Supreme Court, they claim that the US handling also of unlawful combatants must follow the Geneva Conventions.

> You ignored the main point on what you comment on. To quote myself: afaik, you can keep enemy combatants in prison until after the war

We have detained people that we know are not and were not enemy combatants. Your assertion that we can detain enemy combatants is not without merit. The foundation of that claim is unsound, though, because we know we are detaining people who are not enemy combatants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guantanamo_Bay_detaine...

... which were released when determined not to be enemy combatants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_longer_enemy_combatant

(If you want to accuse someone of breaking war laws, go to ICC in Hague...)

I think you're trolling me by now. You have no foot to stand on. (I'm not arguing that the US handling of POWs can't be criticized. Of course. All states can be criticized. But their Supreme Court system do seems to work.)

I'm not comfortable with asserting that the people sitting in Gitmo are all combatants since we know that we've gotten that determination wrong multiple times and we're not giving them trials. The blind assertion that they are enemy combatants rings hollow.

Even if we are legally right to run Gitmo the way we do, I think it is still morally wrong. You can call that trolling if you want, but locking people up indefinitely with no proof of criminal or even combat activity and no path to resolution is immoral.

Condemn Guantanamo from a moral viewpoint if you want.

(Note that all POW camps will certainly have innocents, so the same moral apply to the whole Geneva Convention.)

But stop arguing against legal facts when you don't have a clue... Don't trust the media to inform you.

----

(I'm not doing the moral argument, but: Do note that if the Geneva conventions was too mild, there will be fewer POWs taken... instead lots of more people will die before capture. E.g. Iraq handles captured terrorists by execution a lot, because they know people will get back out and kill again, by bribing themselves out of prisons etc.)

If you go to the great*5 grandparent of this post, you asked for the statement "I find Guantanamo morally indefensible" to be defended.

You were the one, in that very post, who started confusing morality with law, leading to the jumble of responses since.

1. That Guantanamo discussion was a continuation of the content came right before.

2. I started to argue that everything was legal re Guantanamo, as a reply to the moral claim.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12736070

Others started to claim weird illegal content in US law, until me and 'ptaipale' dug up the relevant Geneva conventions and decisions by the US Supreme Court based on them.

(But sure, a relevant answer to me might have been "I don't care about the law or if my way gets more people killed or not -- this is my personal moral and I'm ready to let lots of others suffer and die for it.")

> 1. That Guantanamo discussion was a continuation of the content came right before.

Yes, and what came before was a discussion of the morality of drone strikes. There was never a discussion of the legality of anything except maybe Trump's claimed sexual conquests.

> 2. I started to argue that everything was legal re Guantanamo, as a reply to the moral claim.

So paddyoloughlin is 100% right and "You were the one, in that very post, who started confusing morality with law, leading to the jumble of responses since."

Discussing a person is what follows after you're shown to be wrong. :-)

Never mind. I have stopped discussing with people that dismiss Wikipedia pages with good sources -- when they have neither references nor understanding of a subject.

> Condemn Guantanamo from a moral viewpoint if you want.

That's what I did from the very beginning. And repeatedly throughout this discussion.

> (Note that all POW camps will certainly have innocents, so the same moral apply to the whole Geneva Convention.)

No, my moral problem is that there's no clear path to resolution for Guantanamo detainees, not just that some are innocent. I feel like I made that clear in my first response to you about Guantanamo. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12736359

> But stop arguing against legal facts when you don't have a clue... Don't trust the media to inform you.

"Don't have a clue" is rather unfair since I provided citations into the text of the Geneva conventions to support my understanding. You on the other hand have been flip-flopping between different interpretations, claiming first the relevance of article 118 and later stating that only article 3 protections are provided. I don't think you're as well informed as you'd like to be perceived.

I also don't think "the media" has any relevance here.

> I consider Obama one of the best most rational presidents the US have ever had. > But that rationality also gave us execution by drone without trial.

Well, no; technology gave us drones, not rationality. The US has always killed what it identifies as enemy combatants without a trial, whether its through war, covert operations or drones. Obama at least doesn't match the death count of the Bush years.

He inherited the middle east from GWB, I don't think we'd have the drone program we do if we hadn't invaded twice.

> brags

I think that if any other celebrity said what he said, you'd think it's a little off color, but not bragging about criminal actions. His statements verbatim do not imply anything criminal, unless you fill in extra words yourself.

If you don't hate the guy, you could easily fill in extra words the other way, that is, to make it sound like he's saying something less ambiguous and more reasonable.

So ignore the part about sexual assault and there's still a laundry list of stuff that Trump has said on the record that is terrifying in a major party political candidate. Complementing dictators for running countries well? Proposing a ban on Muslims in direct contradiction of the bill of rights?

As I understand, even at the farthest point he was talking about non-citizens of this country. I don't personally believe we need a reason to stop a non-citizen from coming here. I also don't see any reference in the Bill of Rights concerning that - it's certainly a presidential power that has been exercised before.

It is worth noting he has since backed (evolved if you will) that position down to "extreme vetting" to "certain parts of the world" (Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Pakistan, etc.)

There has never to my knowledge been a president who banned immigration based on religion. If it's happened it was unconstitutional then as well. Certainly it's within the government's scope to ban immigration but not based on a religious test.

Obama in 2011? He certainly didn't say it was based on religion, but these were almost all muslim countries of origin:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/08/04/presi...

Did you link to the wrong proclamation? There are no countries even specified there. It's basically a proclamation that we won't allow in people who committed war crimes.

And there's nothing legally wrong about blocking immigration from a certain country or countries. We could block immigration from Italy and Poland and it wouldn't be unconstitutional despite the fact that they are predominantly Catholic. The religious test itself is what's unconstitutional.

And if the religion condones crimes against humanity?

All we'd have to do is ask:

What do you think should be done with homosexuals?

What do you think should be done with Israel?

and we'd get more than enough information to keep 90% of a certain religion out of here, without directly doing that.

> And if the religion condones crimes against humanity?

No. If you want to block people who say they are against homosexuality, that might be legal. If you want to block people who say their religion is against homosexuality, that's not legal.

The subtle differences matter. Similarly, if you're hiring for a warehouse job, you can discriminate against people who cannot safely lift 50lb packages repeatedly. You cannot discriminate explicitly against people in wheelchairs, even though that group in general will have a lot of trouble lifting 50 lb packages overhead.

>the Court has insisted for more than a century that foreign nationals living among us are "persons" within the meaning of the Constitution, and are protected by those rights that the Constitution does not expressly reserve to citizens.

http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar...

Great, so people not currently in the country are not living among us.

As soon as they are within the boundaries of our laws, they are covered.

Then over a dozen women confirming, yes, he did indeed do everything he claimed to do.

"His statements verbatim do not imply anything criminal, unless you fill in extra words yourself."

Uh, no, he describes text book sexual assault.

"I think that if any other celebrity said what he said, you'd think it's a little off color, but not bragging about criminal actions."

Many people have pointed this out already, but this is a really weird way to brag about sexual prowess. Most men who brag about their sex lives, brag about how many women want to sleep with them, not about grabbing, groping or kissing women uninvited.

> uninvited

He never said 'uninvited'. You are putting that word in his mouth because of your bias.

He said at least one thing that shows his belief that whoever he's referring to was ok with it, as he said something like, "when you're famous, they let you do anything".

> I just start kissing them. ... I don’t even wait.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/us/donald-trump-tape-trans...

You might be able to argue that it's not unwanted, but you cannot claim it's not uninvited. By Trump's own statement he doesn't wait for an invitation. (Arguably, he also doesn't wait for any indication it's wanted, so if this is really his behavior he's undoubtedly done it to women who did not want it.)

you are adding "for permission" at the end of his statement.

There are at ton of reasonable phrases that can go at the end that aren't predator-esque.

e.g. "for a breath mint"

or "for privacy"

So, again, you are adding words and context to his statements in an effort to convince yourself he's terrible.

I'm not adding anything to the end of his statement. It's predator-esque on it's own and you have to add an unlikely subtext to make it not creepy.

It's not like he was cut off mid-sentence. That's how he ended it.

I'm afraid I have to agree with the parent, as much as I don't like trump. I know it's fun having someone to vilify, but let's look at what was actually said:

> And when you're a star, they let you do it

If someone let's you do something... is that not consent? What, must one sign a legal document before "letting you do something" becomes consensual? What is lacking here that would otherwise pass as consent? I fail to see anything.

Oh, but then you'll likely point out the next quote:

> I just start kissing them. ... I don’t even wait.

Is he proclaiming that he "doesn't wait" to initiate, or that doesn't wait to actually begin physical contact? There's a big difference, and it's not immediately clear which he's suggesting. To clarify, consensual kissing happens in several steps: you approach someone (on the dance floor, say), get a cue that your advances are desired, pull them in (gently) almost there, and then let them close the gap if they wish. If someone asked me if I "wait" to kiss someone, I'd likely suggest that I do not -- but in that case, I'm referring to the initial approach (no sense in presuming someone won't invite your advances when you could, alternatively, respect their ability to accept or deny them).

The point is, the above quote does not make explicit the nature of his advances. Maybe he does manhandle people faces, we don't know. But it's lacking in intellectual integrity to suggest that your (equally arbitrary) interpretation reflects reality. And to be doubly clear, I don't believe either argument: I'm okay with the fact that, given the imprecision of his bus banter, I (nor anyone else) will ever know, unequivocally, if that particular quote was intended to convey a consensual interaction. If you were intellectually honest, you would do the same.

> Many people have pointed this out already, but this is a really weird way to brag about sexual prowess. Most men who brag about their sex lives, brag about how many women want to sleep with them, not about grabbing, groping or kissing women uninvited.

Again, the guy never said "uninvited" -- you've made the leap from "doesn't wait" to "uninvited". Let's leave emotion behind for a sec, and consider this rationally: there's no way, from the quotes given above, to deduce that "doesn't wait" == "uninvited" (I hope I made that clear, but if you need further proof by contradiction, as someone who's enjoyed a whole lot of consensual kisses, I'd be happy to provide it). Sure, you can say "well, clearly, I mean, I think he's a dick, so... yeah, it's clear that he'd rape women and be open about it" -- but that doesn't pass muster for rational discussion, and you might as well further reduce your exclamations to "Trump is a dummy-head, and I don't like him", but at least have the integrity to not spout off headline misinformation as if it were pure, golden, axiomatic properties of the universe.

Is Trump crass?

Yep (e.g. "Grab them by the p---y")

Do I generally like the guy?

Nope.

Do I want him as president?

Hell no.

If I don't like the guy, you might be wondering, why would I defend the guy so much? And that's where you'd be wrong again: I'm not defending Trump, I'm defending honest, rational discourse. There are a million and one reasons to not elect Trump, and I would like to see people discuss those things rather than erect strawmen just because it's oh so much fun to proudly proclaim that the other half of our country are a bunch of clueless, inbred, misogynistic, sick fucks (and then pat each other on the backs on our Facebook echo chambers for being comparatively less shitty, as if that were the pinnacle of human self actualization).

Both sides keep spouting off headlines as truth -- with no further critical thought applied -- and it deeply, deeply saddens me to find that even our forum of supposed intellectual minds choose to engage with herd like, collective delusion over engaging with objective reality.

Yes, it is equivalent. The fact that you are deluded to think that you can change anybody's mind by repeating this "racism xenophobia sexual assault" mantra which literally everybody has already heard million times by now just shows that you are equally stuck in your ways and irrational as the people you oppose. It's knee jerking on both sides.

And, speaking of Obama, you guys reminded me of this beauty created during the previous campaign:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/

So we can have Trump-o-meter.

  1. start World War 3
  2. legalize rape
  3. eradicate Islam
  4. enslave Blacks
  
  ... any ideas?

We'll track his progress and see how far he goes.

Trump is a joke. A level 666 troll. If I were you, I'd be more worried about the number of pissed off people who just waited for someone like him.

It's not comparable to oppose a potential president for being black and opposing a potential president the things he claims he wants to do. You can oppose Obama's policies and statements all day, and that is comparable to opposing Trump based on his positions. Opposing Obama because he's black is just overt racism and equivalent to opposing Trump for having small hands.

Nobody opposed Obama for being black. Not even racists in the south. They couldn't care about that because they were too upset with the policies he proposed.

The only people talking about Obamas race where Obama supporters who wanted to avoid substantive discussion about the issues.

Those same people are running around calling Trump a racist now.

The entire scenario here was posited as this being equivalent to when republicans were terrified of a black president being elected. You might not agree that this was the problem, but it's the scenario being discussed.

For the record, the whole "Kenyan, Muslim" stuff was overly racist. Almost no one came out and said that they were opposed to Obama because they were racist. But when you falsely accuse a black man of being a secret Kenyan Muslim, you're just racist.

Not merely accuse, but persisted in questioning him even after the black man's papers were shown. And this was no mere questioning, but peddling lies like the investigators Trump claimed to have sent to Hawaii who were finding things we wouldn't believe, without ever elaborating.

And not in five years did Trump ever talk about policy. He just accused the president of not being legitimate. Like many Republicans did, some directly, most by just staying silent. A handful rejected birtherism outright.

There's a reason why some 98% of black American will not be voting for Trump this year. And it's not their f'g imagination.

You two don't seem to realize that the whole "kenyan muslim" thing -- birtherism and secret muslim- were campaign tactics used by Hillary.

So, will you be consistent and say Hillary is a racist? (Would be consistent with her long friendships with Robert Byrd, and her "needy latinos" comment)

Provide some evidence that Clinton had anything to do with birtherism and then we can discuss how racist she is. So far no one has produced any evidence at all to back this claim. Ditto for the Muslim claim.

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/was-hillary-clinton-the-ori...

It's also really not compelling to defend an outspoken racist by pointing out that his opponent may also be racist, even if it were true.

"But I was the one that got him to produce the birth certificate. And I think I did a good job." Trump

The sheer hubris required to state this outloud is appalling, but totally consistent with this pompous blowhard. But it gets better. Nearly a year and a half after it was produced: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/23257250523843379...

Trump is a con artist. People who believe anything he says, or vote for him, are being conned. He is the epitome of George Carlin's rant about people who keep on voting for people against their own self interest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESAmKudsKKY

I will be very interested to see what people think of Trump's character on November 9 when he doesn't graciously concede like 100% of every previous loser of a presidential election. There is no gracious anything about Donald Trump.

> Nobody opposed Obama for being black. Not even racists in the south.

Now you're just lying. Shame on you for your blatant racism denial. [1] [2] There are many racists all over America, and many of them are quite explicit and open about being opposed to Obama for being black. Do you suggest we not take them at their word?

[1] The New Racism: First you deny racism exists. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/chi-ra...

[2] Discourse and the denial of racism: http://www.discourses.org/OldArticles/Discourse%20and%20the%...

>Negative representations of the dominated group are essential in such a reproduction process. However, such attitudes and ideologies are inconsistent with dominant democratic and humanitarian norms and ideals. This means that the dominant group must protect itself, cognitively and discursively, against the damaging charge of intolerance and racism. Cognitive balance may be restored only by actually being or becoming anti-racist, by accepting minorities and immigrants as equals, or else by denying racism. It is this choice white groups in Europe and North America are facing. So far they have largely chosen the latter option.

Does painting all of your opposition's supporters as racist/sexist/xenophobic/ignorant/violent count as inciting violence? Or is protesters attacking Trump supporters across the country Trump's fault too?

"Does painting all of your opposition's supporters as racist/sexist/xenophobic/ignorant/violent count as inciting violence?"

No.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/18/activist-who-took-credit-f...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCx3ov55tUw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGRFEiLBZCE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPLxfH8_sZw

Good thing all those do then, I suppose.

> Does painting all of your opposition's supporters as racist/sexist/xenophobic/ignorant/violent count as inciting violence?

Absolutely not.

Unless you somehow equate the phrase "criticizing behavior" with "inciting violence".

At the worst, that sentence uses the word "all" where the phrase "non-trivial subset" would be more appropriate.

I do not think you hit on any of the things that make Trump a potential danger to our system of government.

It is his blatant contempt for our Constitution, rule of law, and our political traditions that makes him an existential threat. Support for torture. Jailing political opponents. Wanting to jail journalists saying things he doesn't like. Making religious tests for entering the country. (Many more I'm sure I'm forgetting.)

I think way to little has been made of this as the key reason Trump is not fit to hold the office of President.

> If you looked at the country for the last 8 years you wouldn't be able to tell whether a republican or democratic was in the whitehouse.

Millions more people have health insurance. States have legalized marijuana without federal intervention. Relations have opened with Cuba. A climate treaty and Iran nuclear deal were reached. The supreme court (with two Obama appointees) has legalized gay marriage. Maybe none of this stuff has affected you but trust me, millions of people can tell there's been a democrat in the white house.

The same thing applies with Trump. It might not effect you much if he gets elected, but it would have dire consequences for millions of people if he accomplishes a fraction of the things he's talked about.

HRC is also a fascist dictator wannabe. The difference between them is more kind and less degree.

Anybody who opposes Trump and not Hillary on the grounds of fascism is, to be charitable, being inconsistent.

> I don't know if you followed what happened to the Atheist community in the US, but its downfall was essentially the kind of witch hunt you're trying to incite.

Personally I must have missed this. How did the downfall of the Atheist community in the US happen and who was hunting witches?

Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Dennett wrote books, participated in debates, and basically reimagined atheism as a political movement. Then the question of social justice's role in atheism split the community in two via progressive purging. Splitting the community resulted in movements with significantly less political capital, and the main thinkers moved off to other projects.

It's fairly political, so even though a lot of it happened online you'll still have a hard time of getting a clear picture. "Elevator Gate" is the obvious starting search, http://www.conservapedia.com/Elevatorgate seems to be the most complete single page I can find as an introduction.

conservapedia.com seems mildly biased on this subject, in the sense that it's entirely biased from a creationist perspective.

For instance: http://www.conservapedia.com/God

> "Other than creation itself, God is revealed in several ways, including conscience and special revelation (the Bible, and prophets). Most importantly though, God is revealed in Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God."

I don't expect them to paint a friendly portrait of Richard Dawkins.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to recommend them. They just did the leg work of digging up the quotes and putting them on a single (huge) page for linking, which I thought was what you were asking for.

Thanks. I got confused because the parent post mentioned the "downfall" of "the Atheist community in the US" as opposed to an outspoken atheist who said something stupid online and got publicly ridiculed for it.

> I got confused because the parent post mentioned the "downfall" of "the Atheist community in the US"

Yes, I was the person who wrote that, and this is what I meant.

> as opposed to an outspoken atheist who said something stupid online and got publicly ridiculed for it.

... which then resulted in infighting over if it should be ridiculed, a mass exodus of the thought leaders, and general dwindling of the community. Seriously, Dawkins was shunned by major atheist conferences over his comments in my earlier link. Many atheists then shunned those conferences for shunning Dawkins. When's the last time you saw new material on athiesm in the news? Your answer is almost surely "before elevatorgate"

Ah, see, I don't view atheism as a community or as a political movement. It's just a personal believe (or lack thereof). And I don't see any evidence that this has declined.

There is an atheist community no doubt about that. The bright movement was a good example and then followers of Dawkins, Harris Hitchen et all which roams places like Reddit are by every definition of that word a community with a shared amount of argument, interest and an idea of outside the community.

I think you read the atheist situation incorrectly. When any group grows so large it splits. There are more atheists in the US than ever and the polls indicate that number is growing.

The majority of atheists never had the goal of maintaining one large political power base, and the authors you mentioned mostly wanted adults to stop believing in fairy tales and wanted little to do with political power.

I don't see any failure in atheism other than the amount of time it is taking to gain societal acceptance in the south, which seems to have nothing to do with this discussion.

> I think you read the atheist situation incorrectly. When any group grows so large it splits. There are more atheists in the US than ever and the polls indicate that number is growing.

Re: group size being the primary cause... maybe?

There are plenty of non-split groups that are larger than the size the atheism community was before elevator gate, and most split groups (say, programmers divided by programming language) seem to coexist relatively peacefully.

To me, that suggests the size hypothesis is wrong. It'll need more variables if you'd like to explain the atheism community situation this without using elevatorgate (ie "a huge divisive political battle") as the primary cause.

Re: atheist headcount, this is why I referred to the "atheism community" rather than atheism generally. While I'm glad that atheism has grown, I find myself missing the conferences :/

Size and no reason to unify. There are Democratic, Republican, Communist, Apolitical, Spiritual, Agnostic, Antitheistic, Christian, Rich, Poor, Socialite, Introverted, Moral absolutist, Moral relativist, Vegetarian, Carnivorous and many more Atheists.

Reading that list you will note that there are Christian Atheists. People who claim to be Christian but reject the idea of god. They are... atypical people.

Pretty much people from any and every walk of life just say "Oh, that god thing was silly, well time to move on", and then they continue with their life.

Why would anyone expect this group to be cohesive on anything except that one thing that literally define the group "the lack in belief of god". We can't even agree if we reject god or just don't see any evidence for god.

Now that we are big enough that me, living in Nebraska, can just run into atheist on the street, there seems no pressing need for an active community. I suspect many other feel the same way and smaller activist groups are picking specific battles.

> coexist relatively peacefully

Is there some violence I missed?

It was not a "split." It was the social justice wing of political atheism saying to the entire group that everyone must conform to their values, or get out. And I am not exaggerating about that, not even a little bit.

> more and more Moral Fashion Police on the democratic side of the isle

This hits the nail on the head. It's a moralistic sort of righteous indignation and it's profoundly, dangerously illiberal.

In addition, many of these are the same people who are pleased that HRC is not being challenged over the revelations in the email leaks so far.

I want whoever takes office to have been vetted as much as possible by journalists. How could anyone want their "side" to win so badly that they'd prefer their own candidate evade accountability (or vindication!) for alleged wrongdoing?

There has been very little adversarial press behavior toward either candidate... the press in this election has simply focused on stories that will get lots of clicks, such as those about sex, money, etc.

People keep claiming that this sentiment is "profoundly illiberal". Those people should read more liberal philosophy, because it is not as if this is the first time this issue has come up. You can bring it back to John Stuart Mill if you like, but (very unsurprisingly) it's also one of the major themes of post-World-War-2 liberal philosophy. We are not required to tolerate intolerance when intolerance poses a threat to society.

If you don't believe Trump's intolerance poses a real threat, you're on safe ground arguing against appeals agains Trump. But Altman and Graham do not agree with you.

I do not believe Trump is significantly more intolerant than HRC or any other likely presidential candidate, he simply focuses his rhetoric on populist ire across all of his positions. It's the only trick he knows so he does it again and again.

Additionally, HRC has in the past advocated a nearly identical "wall" policy but used softer rhetoric:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gUAdAYFbIc

GOP candidates for several elections have said much the same stuff Trump is saying only with a rhetorical style more like HRC's. Trump borrows economic populism (and its racist undertones) from the rust belt rhetoric of democrats.

> If you don't believe Trump's intolerance poses a real threat

This is not my belief. I believe both Trump's and HRC's intolerance both pose a major threat. I also believe that the trend toward unabashed executive power is the biggest threat to stability. HRC and Trump both show a similar chance of abusing this, and fortunately congress would be more vigilant about preventing Trump from abusing it, since he has not spent years aligning interest groups in preparation for his day in power.

I could not vote for either of the two major party candidates, my position is not to defend Trump but to apply some of the same criticisms to HRC which seemingly exist in the blind spot of Altman, Graham, and other HRC supporters.

That's fine. I mean, again: I would urge you to reconsider. But we otherwise don't have a live debate, I don't think.

I am not here to argue that people who oppose Hillary Clinton should change their minds (they should, though!). I'm here to urge Sam Altman, who does not agree with you, that his continued support for Peter Thiel is harming the goal he shares with me of preventing a Trump Presidency now, or in 2020.

True. FWIW I think Thiel's goal is to take the opportunity to be on the national stage a bit, expecting to have a bit more involvement in future elections.

Also, FWIW, I think people who live in CA should seriously consider voting for a third party candidate, since HRC is certain to win the state.

I think a lot of people are chill about Trump and Trumpism because they're sure Hillary Clinton is going to win. They're not taking the time to really internalize what a Trump presidency would mean, because nothing is forcing them to.

They, too, should reconsider.

First: Trump could very well win. The polls before Brexit leaned slightly towards its success, but that depended on how you read them: almost as many polls showed it headed for defeat as success. Brexit took Europe by surprise. It's part of a wave of populist nationalism that we can recognize in many countries. Trump, too, is a part of the popular nationalism movement. Not only that, but there's still 3 weeks of election to go. If you believe Sam Wang, this has been an extremely stable election, and it's unlikely to tip. But if you believe Nate Silver, this has been one of the most volatile elections since we've begun tracking it, and the two previous big swings in opinion took less than a week each.

Second: there will be no getting around the tens of millions of people who will cast a vote, in effect, for American Fascism. If Trump loses, he'll create his own cable news network, which will have a built-in audience of millions. That network will drag Fox News further to the right. Trump will spend four years running a campaign against the legitimacy of the 2016 election, and will probably have little trouble capturing the nomination in 2020.

Remember: the GOP may not have believe Trump to be an existential threat to democracy in 2015, but they were sure as shit aware that Trump was a grave threat to their chances at re-taking the White House. His was a joke campaign. And yet he took the nomination from the party establishment, almost effortlessly. He will do it again. The forces aligned against him in the GOP proved themselves impotent.

> His was a joke campaign. And yet he took the nomination from the party establishment, almost effortlessly. He will do it again. The forces aligned against him in the GOP proved themselves impotent.

IMHO The forces against Trump acted too late. In a field with 17 candidates, one of whom appeals to a significant percentage of the base, the outlier will usually win. I wouldn't be surprised if the RNC forces out weaker candidates earlier in the process next cycle.

There are a lot of insightful comments here, I'll respond to a few:

> It's part of a wave of populist nationalism that we can recognize in many countries.

True, HRC too makes many, many appeals to populist sentiments. Hers is less of a "National Greatness" populism, mainly because Trump has cornered the market for that in this election.

Trump has appealed to all the people who buy American cars because they are American or who think that eating a burrito will give them diarrhea (and assume that all people who routinely eat burritos must be plagued by it constantly), etc. etc.

I see this as less of a threat because frankly most of those people are simply old, and they are dying off rapidly. HRC and Obama support gay marriage today because enough of them died off to make homophobia a losing political position.

In the next four years, many more will die off, and that element of society that idealizes 1950s America will be much smaller. Though there is a younger generation that is sympathetic to the 1950s narrative... The television show Mad Men has been hugely popular, and its protagonist is essentially a more handsome Donald Trump. He grabs women and kisses them, he's erratic, he's loud, he's a womanizer, a self-saboteur. This television show captured the imagination of millennials because Don Draper is unlike most young men today. It's that same virility and unapologetic machismo that has led Trump voters to rally behind him. How can we go from being a society that loves Don Draper to a society that hates Don Trump? I don't think it's possible, and I think Trump's ideas will be around for a while even in the younger generation, albeit with a different spokesperson. This is why focusing on the surface layer of Trump is a mistake and why we should be addressing the deeper themes that are going to be alive and well no matter what happens in November.

We'd previously had a lot of presidents who tried to embody the cowboy aesthetic. GWB, born in Connecticut, talked about how much he loves "cold beer and barbecue", owns a ranch, etc. Chris Matthews claims that the winner is always the one the American people can picture squinting into a sunset.

> tens of millions of people who will cast a vote, in effect, for American Fascism

Totally agree, I believe a vote for Trump or HRC counts as this.

> Trump will spend four years running a campaign against the legitimacy of the 2016 election, and will probably have little trouble capturing the nomination in 2020.

TV news is now predominantly entertainment. This is a problem that goes deeper than Trump. It seems natural that an entertainment industry guy like Trump would want to get in on it now that there's zero need for any journalistic merit.

"I see this as less of a threat because frankly most of those people are simply old, and they are dying off rapidly."

You are also out of touch with reality like Altman admitted about liberals not understanding almost half of America. He was right that they've totally ignored their motivations. The Trump supporters are mostly Republicans and people in rural areas. These people have kids, raise them to mostly have similar beliefs, watch similar media that's pro-Right, and often vote for same people. Trump supporters in Mid-South are across all ages with more older ones but plenty in 20's-30's. Almost all the rural people I've asked are pro-Trump because they'd never vote for Democrats but especially not Hillary. They think Trump is more likely to deal with things they care about than a "snobby city-dweller" who doesn't care about them at all.

This will take a long time to die off thanks to the effects of isolation and close-knit communities on new generations. It's not going away in 4 years. Best thing to do is get some Republican candidates in that tap into that who aren't as dangerous as Trump for next election.

Snobby city-dweller? Unlike... Trump?

Oh i agree. That's the hilarity. The difference is Trumps campaign aims at benefiting the rural people where Hillary appears to not care.

I don't think I'm out of touch. Anyone young enough to have the internet, Reddit, and modern social media is very unlikely to be socially conservative over the medium term.

Why? Because young people everywhere (red states and blue states) all like sex (gay and straight), drugs (legal and illegal), and music (country, hiphop, pop). The top 100 list on Apple Music is 50/50 country and poppy hip hop, for example.

The main reason young people affiliate with socially conservative groups (churches, etc.) is to signal membership in a system engineered to get them into a relationship (aka attraction, flirting, sex, etc.). A young male joins the group and immediately gains credibility as being a good person, etc. A young female joins the group and immediately can relax because the males she's meeting are vetted via their membership in the group. A young gay person joins because his/her young gay friends are also members, and they can use the org as cover to spend time together without needing to come out.

Institutions have a label, but their purposes can change very rapidly. Humans are superb at leveraging institutions to achieve their goals.

There are going to be some groups of young people who claim to have highly prejudiced beliefs, etc., but those are fairly common and rarely hold up to scrutiny as the belief holder gets older.

In other words, there is not any sort of youth-oriented grassroots social conservatism in the US. There will always be economic populism, but increasingly there is not a "golden era" in memory for young people to harken back to. Chances are among the stereotypical Trump demographic things were never very cushy economically, and chances are very high that all have had good friends who are African American, latino, hispanic, asian, or any variety of multi-racial backgrounds. Chances are they've had a crush on a multi-racial person and consider the person's humanity far more heavily than their isolated grandparents did (who likely never had many peers or friends from other groups).

Good counterpoints. :)

> I don't think I'm out of touch. Anyone young enough to have the internet, Reddit, and modern social media is very unlikely to be socially conservative over the medium term.

I think the Internet will take us to a new age that looks strangely like a much older one.

New social conservatism on the Internet does not look like old social conservatism because it is out of living memory. It is a return to what I could only describe as aspirational Victorian Era with updates from the Diamond Age. It pines for a new Golden Age. Exploration and feats of strength. Great Men and Women. Charity for the weak. Gifts for the strong. Perhaps people can earn points to elevate themselves in the class system, which you can think of as an immersive MMORPG with AR but with real life consequences and rewards. There would be tea, iron railings, umbrellas, crumpets and art galleries with beautiful art once more. All UPVC would be replaced with timber.

The neoreactionaries would produce a government and society focused on artificial intelligence, advanced genetic engineering, nuclear power. The history books would be written to explain to schoolchildren that an evil cabal of religious marxists attempted to wrest control of the West. You may have formerly known these people as 'Social Democrats' (shudder). The entire history of the 20th century would be reframed in Spenglerian terms. A typical school exercise might read "Compare and contrast the 3 Demotic Terrors: Democracy, Fascism and Communism" and it should be understood that democracy and religion would be considered socially inappropriate since they were the reason the Third World War began. You can believe in them, but proper people don't. We shall also have an excellent array of hats to choose from, far from the dismal hatless tyranny we reside in today.

Since this world knows a vast amount about people's preferences, voting is not required. Your interests are duly noted and factored into a personalization of your local government's offerings. You are of course free to leave to the next Seastead or Landstead (formed by Climate Change and Demotic Warfare!), since each group has different interpretations we take the ability to opt out seriously.

Would this be a dystopia? Or a radical improvement on our age?

Interesting. I agree that we've seen a great decline both in the practice of democracy and in the public appreciation for it and participation in it.

This is largely because our powerful class has found ways to circumvent it democracy... no matter which party wins, things will stay pretty much the same. Voter turnout reflects this.

I find your point interesting. I think the deep question at the heart of it has to do with the idea of "how important are rules if we can just change them as we go and be better off?"

Economic examples abound, but we've also seen our system of laws evolve into a vastly weakened rule of law such that law enforcement can simply choose from any number of laws that a person might have wittingly or unwittingly violated. This is not an outrage because we are trained to trust those in power.

Notably, Justice Sotomayor on the SCOTUS is "liberal" in some ways but very compliant when it comes to issues of law enforcement privilege, etc.

> It's part of a wave of populist nationalism that we can recognize in many countries

Who's "we"? Learned economists/sociologists, or internet randomers?

Trump wants to "make america great again", Brexiters want to regain their sovereignty from an unaccountable other; they aren't the same thing.

> in effect, for American Fascism

Which way do you think the country was going before Trump came along? Greater freedom, accountability and transparency of government? Does prism, Snowden etc not mean anything?

No, they're not the same thing. #MAGA is the American populist nationalist movement. Brexit is the British populist nationalist movement. As you have adroitly detected, they are in fact two different countries.

But I'm glad you brought Snowden up. Because that gives me the opportunity to remind you that one of Donald Trump's campaign promises is to put Edward Snowden to death.

Also one of Hillary's campaign promises. And basically what Obama has been trying to do.

Remember Hillary suggested that we should use a drone to take out Julian Assange.

But we should be reminded about Trump taking this position and we should all forget that Obama and Hillary are arguably worse?

To be fair, I thought it wasn't actually Hillary that suggested that. But yes, Obama has ordered quite a few strikes.

No, that is a false statement.

No, it isn't.

So provide a reliable source as citation.

> Remember Hillary suggested that we should use a drone to take out Julian Assange.

There is no reliable original source for this. Try not to present unsubstantiated quotes as fact.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12736568

No, Clinton has not made a public declaration that Snowden should be put to death, as Trump has.

They aren't the same kind of thing either, America isn't voting to remove itself from any kind of union.

I guess we'll see what happens.

> one of Donald Trump's campaign promises is to put Edward Snowden to death.

That is heartbreaking. Thank you for informing me. Whoever we elect, this absolutely cannot happen.

He has also suggested, "going after their families" as a strategy to combat terrorism. Can we elect someone, to stand over the world, who has made such statements? We really need a third option. A quote from some wise-guy somewhere [0]: "315 to 320 million people; this is the best two that we can come up with?"

0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3O01EfM5fU&t=37

"Does prism, Snowden etc not mean anything?"

I certainly haven't heard Trump defending Snowden or promising to get rid of programs like Prism.

How would it help? He hasn't said he'd extend either program either.

And he's never actually meant anything he's ever said, and then he usually goes on to contradict himself if he ever mentions anything more than once, so it really doesn't matter that he hasn't said anything about it either way.

Man isn't telling anyone what he plans to actually do. I hope it's "fuck up the crypto-fascist institution" ...

Your comment is a lot of projection of why people might support Trump. I'm not a fan of Trump, and my vote would go to Gary Johnson, but I hope Trump wins. Here's why:

1. I'm gay. Hillary Clinton has campaigned against gay marriage here entire career. Bill Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act (not coincidentally on the day I stopped being a democrat.) Trump doesn't care about homosexuality (literally when asked what he would do if he found out an employee was gay he said "it makes no difference"). While HRC supporters like to portray him as anti-gay and wanting to overturn the decision legalizing gay marriage, that's not honest. He correctly disagrees with the basis on which the decision was made, which is different from disagreeing on the outcome. (There really is no power for government to regulate marriage, especially at the federal level.)

So, I hope Trump wins because Hillary is the anti-gay bigot between the two.

I'm not even going to get into the allegations of racism because that boy-who-cried wolf has been going on since Obama got elected and merely disagreeing with him makes you a "racist" now.

2. The claim that Trump represents "american facsism" is a misrepresentation of Fascism. Fascism is an economic system whereby the economy is privately owned but controlled dictatorially by a central government. That means Obamacare ("private" insurance companies, total control over the government) and the GM takeover are examples of American Fascism. The total surveillance society we have under Obama and W and would continue under Hillary is fascist.

To portray this as "liberalism" vs "fascsim" is wrong, and more right if you reverse the roles. (at least Trump is a bit economically liberal.)

3. You guys seem to grab "code phrases" and repeat them as mantras. The one you used is "existential threat to democracy". Remember in 2000 when Gore lost the election and we had 8 years of W as a result? Remember the massive scandal about voting fraud and how widespread it was? That's a literal threat to democracy. Like the Snowden revelations it was news for awhile, and there was talk of reform, but nothing was ever done.

How can there be a democracy when the votes are not even honestly counted? How about the fact that we cannot audit the software of the counting machines?

Isn't that a literal threat to democracy? Much more serious than some obnoxious reality TV star who's slightly more economically liberal than a woman whose entire career has been beset with scandal and allegations of misconduct-- almost all of which were just proven true with email leaks? Who had an investigation by the FBI where the agents say the outcome was predetermined? Isn't that level of corruption a serious existential threat to democracy?

You don't have to agree with me, that's fine- MY objection is to this delusion that there is a only one way to look at this and anyone who disagrees is somehow evil.

I'ma gay guy who wants to legally marry and I'm not going to vote for someone who has denied me my rights.

Tell me that makes me immoral!

Very well put. I'm glad to see someone calling out HRC's career of homophobia and correctly describing fascism -- among other well-made points.

> Trump doesn't care about homosexuality (literally when asked what he would do if he found out an employee was gay he said "it makes no difference").

Yeah, right. You do know that Trump wants to appoint clones of Scalia to the Supreme Court, right[1]? The same Scalia who was opposed to gay marriage and gay rights? [2]

> I'm a gay guy who wants to legally marry and I'm not going to vote for someone who has denied me my rights.

... but you don't mind supporting someone who will continue to deny you your rights?

[1] http://www.advocate.com/election/2016/10/10/donald-trump-vow...

[2] http://www.towleroad.com/2016/02/302540/

>Yeah, right. You do know that Trump wants to appoint clones of Scalia to the Supreme Court, right[1]? The same Scalia who was opposed to gay marriage and gay rights? [2]

Scalia's arguments weren't completely unreasonable. His dissent essentially said that the matter should have been solved by a constitutional amendment.

I think the best possible solution would have been to introduce an amendment that clearly states the federal government has no authority to regulate marriage while also clearly stating that the right to pursue a marriage to the consenting adult of our choice falls under the protection of "inalienable rights", thus stripping from the states the ability to individually pass laws oppressing homosexuals.

However, I think that the passing of such an amendment was and is unlikely. So, while I see Scalia's point on that particular issue, I don't necessarily think the rest of the supreme court had much of a choice.

There are many other decisions where I disagreed with Scalia, but I think there's something to be said for maintaining a somewhat balanced supreme court (not that I'm willing to vote for Trump to make that happen).

The supreme court was designed in a way that was intended to keep the justices free from the influence of politics. However, it has pretty much always been a political competition.

> His dissent essentially said that the matter should have been solved by a constitutional amendment.

Why should a fundamental right require a constitutional amendment? IMHO, this is a cop-out for Scalia: he knows how hard it is to put together a constitutional amendment, so instead of just saying "no" and appearing like a bigot, he punted the question as a constitutional amendment. I'm sorry, but I don't buy his argument.

>Why should a fundamental right require a constitutional amendment? IMHO, this is a cop-out for Scalia: he knows how hard it is to put together a constitutional amendment, so instead of just saying "no" and appearing like a bigot, he punted the question as a constitutional amendment. I'm sorry, but I don't buy his argument.

Because the constitution says what it says and it doesn't say what it doesn't say. It is a fundamental right, but the drafters of the constitution failed to mention it in explicit enough terms to adequately protect people. In fact, the people that voted in favor of gay marriage must have agreed that the constitution didn't adequately protect these rights, because they heavily referenced amendments (AKA modifications) to the constitution in their decision.

The constitution isn't perfect. If it was, we wouldn't have needed amendments to give women the right to vote, or to make minorities count as whole people. We need amendments to make it better.

For all I know, Scalia may have had bigoted alterior motives for his vote. However, I'm simply evaluating his argument (which if you'll reread my statement I wasn't actually agreeing with).

The Constitution does not mention marriage at all (AFAICT). So why do you need an amendment to allow gay marriage? What are you amending, if it does not exist?

I didn't suggest an amendment to allow gay marriage, I suggested an amendment that would explicitly prohibit the state and federal governments from attempting to regulate any marriage between two consenting adults.

In an academic manner, you are right. Its silly that we have to do anything to keep any government from interfering with things that we consider to be fundamental rights.

I didn't suggest that the constitution mentions marriage. However, its failure to explicitly state it as a fundamental right is a large part of the reason gay people were oppressed for so long in our country. Historically, rights not outlined in the constitution fall under the authority of state governments.

Also note that the constitution and the bill of rights are more of a statement of rights we already have. The document isn't intended to actually grant the rights. No one can grant fundamental rights. However, having a constitution as a statement of rights can help protect them when others want to take them away.

Uh, aren't all our fundamental rights part of why the constitution was written? It's not like the founders where n00bs when they realized a Bill of Rights was needed. They still didn't even get it right by still allowing slavery. Seems like the lesson should be, get more rights into the constitution.

No, they are not. Read the pre-amble to the bill of rights. It makes it clear the rights are broad and pre-existing for the Bill of Rights and the Bill of Rights merely clarifies.

This is why the right to self defense cannot be restricted by any interpretation of the second amendment. Same with speech and the first amendment.

Those amendments are restrictions on government, not creators of rights.

Fair enough, so maybe some clarification needs to be added?

> Why should a fundamental right require a constitutional amendment?

Why do the Bill of Rights, the 13th, and the 19th amendments exist? They're all designed to protect fundamental rights. An amendment would afford non-traditional marriage the same protection.

The Ninth Amendment, my friend:

  “The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

When the Supreme Court "creates" new rights, they are acting under the aegis of the Ninth Amendment, and simply recognizing a right that is retained by the people. For all fundamental rights to be explicitly enumerated in the Constitution is something that the Founders explicitly knew they could not do.

Right, which is why given there is no enumerated power clause giving them one the federal government has no power to regulate marriage.

The problem is, the states legalized gay marriage at the state level, and DOMA which is invalid under the 9th amendment and powers clause caused a problem.

They should have struck down DOMA and let the states have their choice, as they do under the 9th amendment.

The courts actually did both.

When Section 3 of DOMA (the portion prohibiting the Federal government from recognizing same sex marriages) was overturned, it was partially on a Tenth Amendment argument.

It was in overturning Section 2 of DOMA (the portion allowing States not to recognize same sex marriages performed in other States) that the Supreme Court recognized marriage rights as something which could not be restricted on the basis of the sex of the participants.

I am not certain you could construct an argument that would allow the Supreme Court to overturn Section 2 of DOMA without also declaring all State laws unconstitutional; once the Supreme Court recognized that right, the 14th Amendment applies.

And yet, the end of slavery and enactment of women's suffrage were both strengthened by amendments, rather than supreme court decisions (which is why I included those in my list). So I think that my question still stands. Why would an amendment be necessary to force a right that should've been held by the people already in one case, but not another?

SATSQ: A Constitutional amendment is necessary to establish a right when the Courts do not recognize that right.

An Amendment is also useful to avoid a right being lost in future rulings, or to raise the bar on what is considered a compelling reason to abridge that right. Remember, DOMA was overturned not just because the Courts recognized freedom to marry as a right, but because the Federal government was unable to offer a compelling reason why it was in the public interest to remove that right from same-sex couples.

Consequently, a Constitutional amendment may well have been necessary to end slavery, because even if the Courts were willing to recognize both slaves as citizens deserving of rights and "not being a slave" as an unenumerated right in 1865 (hint: they weren't), the Courts almost certainly would have been willing to hear arguments that slavery was in the public interest, even if it was an abridgement of the rights of slaves. They are certainly willing to allow de facto slavery of non-citizens and of prison inmates to continue.

In any case, demanding that we refuse to recognize a right until it is enumerated in the Constitution or its Amendments, when the Constitution itself both declares the existence of unenumerated rights and demands they be recognized is just fucking asinine.

Where do you get off calling my question stupid? Condescending asshole.

To be clear: I don't have a problem with your answer itself, but the tone in both of your replies to my honest questions hasn't been helpful. You need to work on your presentation, or you're going to turn more potentially interesting information into something of shit value.

This is such absurd mental gymnastics, I think this amounts to trolling.

1. Hillary never voted against marriage equality as a senator. You blame her for what her husband did in 1996, which he has since said was a mistake. Do you hold any of the over 300 Republicans who voted in favor of DOMA accountable? Do you hold any of the Republicans to this day who disagree with the Obergefell ruling, including Donald Trump, and want to unwind it at a local level?

Saying Hillary is a bigot is demonstrably wrong, at least she is completely committed to the Obergefell ruling at the national and local level. Unlike Trump who has clearly said he does not favor gay marriage.

And yes, Trump is a blatant racist. You have to be exceptionally oblivious to ignore even the recent examples of birtherism, and the Central Park 5 - who by the way are innocent and Trump still said last week nope, nope, they were guilty. He's a loon or he's a con, take your pick.

3. Wrong, something was done. Counties across the country got conned into buying fancy electronic voting machines, which are now sufficiently obsolete the companies that sold them do not exist, do not support that hardware anymore, and we're at a net higher risk than we were before. We had a bunch of high tech nut cases who sold governments across the country a bill of goods. Next time, try pen and paper.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1-r1YgK9I

She was against it at some point, for sure.

Do you realize that video is her arguing against a constitutional amendment to define marriage as ONLY between a man and a women?

And which is the better moral position: flip flopping, if in fact she did, on gay marriage where today she very clearly supports it and has precisely articulated why including fully supporting the Obergefell vs Hodges ruling; or someone who explicitly stands against it, in favor of states making their own decisions, and is in favor of a judge who was no friend of the LGBT community?

Trump says he would defend the LGBTQ community. How? By nominating another Scalia, he has said.

Scalia in Lawrence vs Texas, is lamenting that mere disagreement with people's choices (i.e. sexual behavior) can no longer be a reason for putting them in jail. That's who Donald consistently claims he wants as a judge on the Supreme Court.

Whether it's bigotry or bad judgement, it is bad policy. And only one party right now stands on the side of LGBT rights, and it is not the Republican party at all by a very wide margin.

She gets no credit for pretending to be pro-gay rights after the fact. IT's not flip flopping its pandering.

Trump doesn't pander. He doesn't care about gays much he's not courting the gay vote, but that's appropriate- government should be out of our lives not denying our rights.

Obama could have taken action in 2008. He didn't. He continued to oppose gay marriage.

Did hillary stand up to him? Of course not.

You guys think we have to vote for you otherwise we're self hating or some other bullshit.... but we don't. You are going to be in big trouble when the republicans implode and are replaced by libertarians, or they loosen up on social issues and obsolete the libertarian that way.

The religious right is dying out. So when a serious party offers both economic freedom and social freedom, the democrats-- who pretend to offer social freedom and don't even pretend to offer economic freedom -- are going to be DOA.

Unless you fool all the people all the time that all the people are racist and sexist.

You cannot prove she's pretended or pandering. But let's play a game where we have proof she's merely accommodating gay marriage advocacy, but personally doesn't actually agree with it.

Which is the better political bet? To vote for the person who gives you what you seek? Or vote for the person who states, without reservation that they are opposed to gay marriage, support states right to unwind the Obergefell ruling, and nominate socially conservative judges like Antonin Scalia who happened to vote against Obergefell, the very ruling that grants you that which you claim to seek.

You're simply not credible on this. You're willfully delusional or ignorant on the topic. You have grossly and very obviously mistaken the forest for the trees.

I applaud you for standing up to those who would defend your rights as a gay man, asserting your strength of character and courage of conviction. I have nothing I'll to say about your choosing to support a candidate who gives you that freedom to fight your own battles as you see fit.

Consider this, in addition to your position: Your assertion that Hillary is pandering to the LGBTQ community may be based on a faulty premise. You're convinced of Donald's position on gay rights as laissez-faire, and that informs your view of Hillary's "pandering". But what if, as is the hope of anyone who speaks out about their beliefs to a political leader whose support would help their cause, Hillary was truly convinced that she was wrong, and has legitimately changed her mind? Isn't that the outcome the LGBTQ community would want? To have effectively changed the mind of such a political leader?

Further, is it possible that it's closed-minded to refuse to acknowledge that Hillary may have learned something? That she accepted new facts, and adjusted her position as a result of them?

Finally, can you appreciate the perspective that others may have, when they witness a gay man deny that Hillary may have actually, sincerely, really and truly changed her mind, and that she now stands with the gay community? The perspective: "This guy is just as closed minded as he claims Hillary is."

>(There really is no power for government to regulate marriage, especially at the federal level.)

That might be true in theory, but the federal government has pretty unrestricted power to e.g. say gay marriage spouses "don't count" for purposes of SS benefits, for income taxation, for adoption benefits, etc.

IF by "in theory" you mean "under the constitution" and by "but" you mean "but in practice" then I agree with you completely.

That is my point. In this area and many other areas of human rights, the government is corrupt and a criminal organization violating these rights.

Have an upvote for a reasonable reply.

"Remember the massive scandal about voting fraud and how widespread it was?"

Will need a citation for that one. Just saw a headline about a study saying about 13 counts of fraudulent votes were found over a period when 1 billion votes were cast.

Which shouldn't convince you (I don't even have a link right now), but I hope you understand why I'm not just going to take your word for it, either.

"I'ma gay guy who wants to legally marry and I'm not going to vote for someone who has denied me my rights."

Which is your prerogative, but aren't you also concerned about rights for other groups of people? (And if you're denying there haven't been any statements by Trump indicating he wants to deny rights to certain groups of people, you need to pay closer attention.)

I wonder if the people who accuse Obama of Fascism have ever even looked up what it means. Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

"Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism. Fascism opposes liberalism, Marxism and anarchism and is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties. Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature, and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies."

What does that sound like to you? Far-right, encourage violence, strong leadership, protectionism. Obama? HARDLY! Trump in a nutshell!

O'REILLY: All right. Gay marriage, favor it?

TRUMP: I'm against it.

O'REILLY: Why?

TRUMP: I just don't feel good about it. I don't feel right about it. I'm against it and I take a lot of heat because I come from New York. You know, for New York it's like, how can you be against gay marriage? But I'm opposed to gay marriage.

O'REILLY: They say, the gays, that this violates their rights, that they are American citizens and they should have a right to live the same way heterosexuals live, and you say?

TRUMP: Well, I think it's a tough situation, and I'll tell you what I say. I say that we have other problems. We have other problems in this country. And I don't think a president should be elected on gay marriage or not gay marriage because we have some very big problems. Based on everything I see, Obama, who said basically the same thing as I do, I think he is going to come out in favor of gay marriage.

O'REILLY: Yes, he will. But you remain opposed?

TRUMP: I am opposed, yes.

http://www.foxnews.com/transcript/2011/03/30/donald-trump-si...

Thanks for that, I hadn't reached back to 2011 for my research. First off, reading this the way you intend, that makes him still less homophobic than hillary. When Oreilley says "they say this violates their rights" he says "this is a tough situation and we have other problems" which in Trump Speak means "yeah it violates their rights but this isn't the first thing to fix so I'm not going to make it a major part of a campaign".

That's hugely softer than Hillaries absolute denouncement of it.

He was spot on about Obama pretending to be in favor of gay marriage (though wrong in his timing- Obama didn't "learn his lesson" until after the Supreme Court ruling. Talk about leading from the rear.)

Like his comments about the court ruling, I read this as him being opposed to the issue as an issue, not the right.

This is the guy who invited Theil to speak at the republican convention-- the first openly gay speaker who in fact stated he was gay at the podium and was applauded for it.

That sure undermines the spin democrats want to spin, but it's the reality.

And basically, this is a turning point for republicans. Trump is the first non-openly homophobic candidate from either party to run for president. It sucks that he's such a doofus and doesn't give good soundbites, but there it is.

> Trump is the first non-openly homophobic candidate from either party to run for president

You believe it's a good thing that he's homophobic but not open about it? So he denies his homophobia in public, but hates gays in private anyway. And chooses Mike Pence as his running mate. You call that progress?

Next you're going to tell me that gay people can't be homophobic or act against their own self interest [1], like you appear to be doing. Good luck overcoming your own self-hatred, and achieving your own Sister Souljah moment.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Mehlman

You really should try to at least figure out what the position of your favorite candidate is before you make up your mind to vote. Trumps position is the exact opposite of what you claim it is.

https://ballotpedia.org/2016_presidential_candidates_on_LGBT...

I admit I'm very confused about the dismissal of claims of racism. I'm Chinese in America and trumps focus on China and it's evils is very uncomfortable for me and many other Chinese people who want to be seen as American citizens and part of America. This is him spouting hatred to a country whose people have come to this country to make opportunity as they have always had even during such times as the Chinese exclusion act. I'm sure many other immigrants from Latin America or Mexico may feel the same when he goes on many-minute long tirades about Mexico...

> They're not taking the time to really internalize what a Trump presidency would mean,

They don't agree with you. Why should they take the time to internalize what you think a Trump presidency would mean, if you're wrong?

Have you followed all the problems related to people losing their jobs because of tweets, and Nobel laureates losing their jobs because of jokes that got blown out of proportion?

This is not quite the same as that; Trump's statements are not one-off tweets or jokes.

But you assume Trump's statements are literally what he wants to enact. Only #nevertrump actually believes that; everyone else thinks Trump is making statements that are just the right-wing version of Open Borders and Universal Income, and Trump and his supporters actually expect those radical right-wing positions (consider them an initial negotiation position) to be negotiated down to something centrist. They don't want all Muslims banned (well, some Trump supporters do, but not many), nor an economy-damaging trade war with China, nor a literal wall running the entire Mexican border, nor refusal to defend NATO allies. What they do want is some respect for enforcing existing immigration laws (congress made it illegal to immigrate by walking across the border, but the Democrat propaganda seeks to frame Trump as a bad person for suggesting enforcing the law Congress wrote). They want some attention paid to long-term economic consequences of outsourcing so much production, and restructuring the costs of the U.S. playing World Policeperson. They want some indication that the government is aware of the difficulty of "vetting" immigrants from a war-torn region without stable government, and that there are social and political externalities from accepting not-well-vettable immigrants when those war-torn regions are known for terrorism (that we may or may not be funding to try to topple Assad), and when even those who are not "terrorists" have what most Americans would consider an undesirable propensity for supporting things like Sharia law.

You and other Thiel-haters reject the principle of charity as it applies both to Trump and to Thiel; you paint a caricature of someone's positions, and go on a witch hunt against anyone who supports those people. When that isn't enough, you go on a witch-hunt against anyone who associates with those people. I consider that dangerous and politically damaging. Obviously everyone has a right to express their opinions, and to choose their associations, but that presumes some level of respect, caution and restraint that is not generally being shown by modern liberals.

In one breath, you say that the problem with how I view Trump is that I take him at his word. In the next, you accuse me of caricaturing his positions. The problem I have engaging with your argument is that I cannot crawl inside your head to discover what your perceptions of Donald Trump are, and those appear to be the only terms on which you're comfortable discussing Donald Trump.

But of course, the bigger problem here is that I'm not here to convince you not to support Donald Trump. I hope you won't. But if you do: fine. Sam Altman does not agree with you. He likens Trump to a dictator. If you're a Trump supporter, you are not the audience to whom my argument is addressed.

> The problem I have engaging with your argument is that I cannot crawl inside your head to discover what your perceptions of Donald Trump are, and those appear to be the only terms on which you're comfortable discussing Donald Trump.

Oh come now. The reason you shouldn't have to crawl inside his head is that you can engage in discussion to learn what he thinks.

If the issue is a dispute between what I believe Trump is saying and what you believe Trump is saying, we could have a discussion where we break it down and identify what parts we share and what parts we don't share, and why.

For example, we could start by agreeing that Trump is opposed to immigration. You could claim that this is racist. I would suspect this is a deeply held prejudice so I would just dispute it and move on. I would claim that "Building a Wall" is just a rhetorical device to focus people's attention on the more abstract and tedious problem of an insecure border. You could point out how Trump or his surrogates have used various examples of actual border walls in other parts of the world, which would lend credibility it being a real promise, not mere rhetoric. We'd both have learned something. And so on.

Alternately, you could just go opposite direction and just start throwing around vague, obsolete terms like Fascism and the discussion would go nowhere.

"But you assume Trump's statements are literally what he wants to enact."

I am exhausted by all of the requests by Trump supporters to somehow magically read the tea leaves and interpret what Trump really means to do, while ignoring everything he consistently says he will do.

Like how Trump claimed he sexually assaulted women, then many women came forward and said, yes, he sexually assaulted them, and now we are expected to not believe Trump then, and not believe any of these dozen or so women, but instead only believe Trump today, who of course would never possibly be trying to deny something that's true but politically (and maybe criminally) damaging to himself.

How about we just go back to people running for office actually saying what they intend to do, and voters taking them at face value?

(Which, by the way, is surprisingly close to how most politicians actually behave. George W. promised to cut taxes, and cut taxes. Obama actually passed something embodying a lot of his health care ideas and negotiated with our enemies like Iran. There are many other examples of politicians actually trying to do what they promised, so I think it's a little dangerous to assume a politician won't actually try to do what he says he will do.)

> I am exhausted by all of the requests

Well get un-exhausted and stop pretending not to understand negotiation techniques (this community is primarily about start-ups, is it not?).

Trump is a negotiator. He has been a negotiator his whole life. An aggressive opening bid is openly part of his style.

Trump is also an entertainer, he knows how to push people's buttons and get people engaged using visual imagery and drama. He does this to combat the hostile and equally (usually more) dishonest mudslinging that all modern politicians engage in.

He also knows how to use his skill at PR as leverage. Someone negotiating with him knows that he can rally the public to push for, say, Term Limits or something. Or, if you're cooperative, maybe he'll use that same rhetorical entertainer skill to help you out. Have you noticed how often Trump, usually in a seeming offhand manner, praises the people and groups who do business with him?

It's really not that hard to understand. You should not be getting exhausted over this.

> How about we just go back to people running for office actually saying what they intend to do, and voters taking them at face value?

This is due to the methods that modern politicians use to win votes. Their published platforms are always vague and lack REAL details. And even if and when they have real details, any thinking person knows that there are two huge problems to implementing any proposed change: (1) opposition from system (eg congress) (2) circumstances change and the policy no longer makes sense. So instead of going into all the details about how they're going to implement their free ice cream policy, they spend massive amounts of money on PR (friendly press hits, TV ads, attack ads) to influence voters using rhetoric and exposure.

Of course Clinton's campaign has been legendarily dishonest and unethical [1]. But they all do it to some extent.

You cite Obama's campaign? Other than healthcare, what do you actually remember about his platform? What I remember is a lot of vague rhetoric about "Hope and Change." He was heavily critical of Bush's wars, and yet Obama's foreign policy has been full of violence and war.

> Which, by the way, is surprisingly close to how most politicians actually behave. George W. promised to cut taxes, and cut taxes.

GW Bush invaded Iraq. I don't remember that being on his platform, do you?

[1] http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/10/17/exclusive...

> Like how Trump claimed he sexually assaulted women,

Except he didn't. This is a blatantly ignorant interpretation of the conversation that ignores the implied levity and non-seriousness of the exchange and the explicit claim that consent is granted.

I always find it laughable (in a very sad way) when people support a political candidate based on the active belief that they won't actually do what they say.

If your best chance is that the president has been lying and exaggerating things for the last year and a half, you're totally screwed.

I also don't believe his positions exaggerate his beliefs. He is a racist sexist xenophobic con man, and his policies reflect that.

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time", said Maya Angelou. Trump has been showing us who he is for decades, yet people like you still think maybe he's someone else. Fancy.

> I always find it laughable (in a very sad way) when people support a political candidate based on the active belief that they won't actually do what they say.

I always find it laughable (in a very sad way) when people forget that solving the problems of tomorrow with the solutions of today usually doesn't work very well.

> But you assume Trump's statements are literally what he wants to enact.

The usual complaint about politicians is that they rarely make good on their pre-election promises. It is interesting that even Trump's supporters are fervently hoping that he won't be true to his campaign proposals.

And each Trump supporter, no matter what their ideology is, believes that they are the special snowflake who knows what Trump really believes in his heart of hearts. They believe Trump actually agrees with them just because they're smart and they believe he's smart too. They project their own hopes and needs and prejudices and bigotry onto him, ignore what he actually says while claiming to agree with what he is not actually saying, and cut him slack for lying about it in public, because of their special insight into Trump's true beliefs which just happen to align with their own that they're also afraid to say in public. That's exactly how dog whistles work: "You know what I'm talking about, right." [1] They've fallen hook line and sinker for a con-man whose only interest is the naked pursuit of power and self aggrandization.

[1] http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/donal...

> And each Trump supporter, no matter what their ideology is, believes that they are the special snowflake who knows what Trump really believes in his heart of hearts.

Well I think he is less likely to start a war with Russia. I base that on the evidence I have observed about the behaviors of each candidate.

> fervently hoping that he won't be true to his campaign proposals.

Which ones?

The only serious one I oppose is aggressive rounding up of illegals. Others I oppose are relatively minor, compared to my opposition to the massively corrupt and sick Hillary Clinton

You realize that a US President merely hinting that we won't defend our NATO allies is a direct path to World War III?

This "he doesn't really mean what he says" defense is not only naive: even saying what he says with such blatant disregard for civil society invites violence against non-whites, against politicians, against voters!

Enough of his supporters legitimately believe the election is rigged that we're looking at the delegitimization not only of our likely next president but the entire political system. "Burn it down" sounds fun until you realize Venezuela or Zimbabwe are potential outcomes.

Do you know why he made the comment? I don't think you do.

He did it because Europa isn't spending the promised bnp on military spending and he is saying they need to step up their game and can't just expect for the US to come saving them every time.

Some of Trumps comments are obviously absurd, but many of them are taken out of context just like you did here.

I understand his motivation. I'm pointing out there are severe consequences to his stream of consciousness approach.

Russia will reclaim the Baltic states if we give Putin reason to believe we won't honor our commitments. Hell, Trump's been so eager to embrace Russian propaganda he'll probably just gift them.

> Russia will reclaim the Baltic states

There is no point to wild speculation about Russia invading the Baltic states at some future date when the possibility of war with Russia exists RIGHT NOW over Syria and the allegations of cyberwarfare from Hillary Clinton and the current administration.

Trump's rhetoric is entirely focused on doing what's best for the American People, without regard to idealistic, imperialistic, abstract Neocon ideology of expanding US hegemony and influence.

> You realize that a US President merely hinting that we won't defend our NATO allies is a direct path to World War III?

You realize that any attempt to implement Hillary's proposed no-fly zone in Syria would require the US to shoot down Russian aircraft? You realize that is an act of war?

We are way closer to World War III than you realize, and it's most definitely not Trump's rhetoric that has brought us here.

> Enough of his supporters legitimately believe the election is rigged that we're looking at the delegitimization not only of our likely next president but the entire political system.

Hillary's team[1] is the one training protesters in methods of provocation and escalation to violence and then sending them to Trump rallies to cause chaos and anarchy. Hillary's team is the one celebrating that their covert operations succeeded in having a rally in Chicago shut down. Hillary's team is the one subverting democratic institutions and promoting escalations of violence and anarchy.

These shenanigans wouldn't even have been attempted if the Clinton Machine operatives thought that the press would cover the stories fairly and objectively. (Or, if they really buy into their own propaganda that bird-dogging provocation is somehow blameless, they would claim hostile press). Either way, it took an independent journalist (who is maligned and whose credibility is still attacked by corporate media) to expose the operation and offer the people the chance to really understand what happened in Chicago, San Jose, and elsewhere.

Without a functioning 4th estate, you cannot have real democracy.

[1] Yes, she had "plausible deniability" but that's irrelevant at this point. Whether Hillary is actually the calling shots makes very little difference. Her so-called "political machine" is all she has going for her.

This is not even about Trump, he is just the most blatantly visible artifact of a movement that enjoys calling people names and delegitimizing. Trump did this in 2008 and again in 2012, he did it with the whole racist birther routine which few Republican leaders denounced - they were perfectly happy to ride the coat tails of delegitimizing a sitting president. Perfectly happy to continue to do it this year by not even holding hearings on his Supreme Court nominee. And then just yesterday McCain proposes delegitimizing Hillary in advance by blocking any of her nominees.

I agree with you, I think this is playing with fire. But I have no idea if getting a little bit burned is what's needed, or if it quickly turns into Donald actually trying to get the Speaker of the House removed.

"They'll be there...I would think that Ryan wouldn't be there--maybe he would be in a different position," Trump said on The O'Reilly Factor.[1]

Does he really think he can do this? i.e. autocrat. Or does he not know how our government works? i.e imbecile. Or is he trolling? i.e. troll as head of state is great! I mean really? People are so deranged with anti-Hillary sentiment they don't really get how unstable a presidency this would be, just like this whole 18 month shit show has been.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/10/11/donald-trump-speaker-p...

>Trump will spend four years running a campaign against the legitimacy of the 2016 election, and will probably have little trouble capturing the nomination in 2020.

I was hoping his nomination will serve as a wake-up call for the GOP. More specifically, I'm hoping they drop the strict requirement to pretend to be a fundamentalist Christian lunatic in order to have a real shot at running as a republican. We need more moderates from both major parties. Partisan politics are destroying us.

> More specifically, I'm hoping they drop the strict requirement to pretend to be a fundamentalist Christian lunatic in order to have a real shot at running as a republican.

This is how we got to Trump in the first place.

> Partisan politics are destroying us.

I absolutely agree, though I don't see how all this demonizing of conservatives is going to help.

Hear hear. I usually don't post my political views online, but deserves affirmation.

I disagree that Trump would be such a shoe-in for 2020. The Democrats just need a better candidate.

I think with the currently developing scandals (especially sexual assault allegations), and likely many more scandals between 2016 and 2020, they'd need someone even less liked than Hillary for him to have a shot.

The bigger threat is indeed whatever media empire he might try to launch after the election. (Scarily, I could picture him doing so whether he wins or loses.)

> I disagree that Trump would be such a shoe-in for 2020. The Democrats just need a better candidate.

Note that it's almost unheard-of for the sitting president not to run for a second term. (I certainly can't remember a case in my short life.) So either Trump or Clinton will almost certainly be on the ballot in 4 years.

LBJ didn't run for reelection.

Yes, he did. Johnson was forced out of the primaries by Sen. McCarthy.

If Hillary isn't in a relatively strong position by 2020, I suspect she'd be reasonable enough to switch with someone else.

Telling people who will vote for a candidate that is 'certain to win' to vote for another candidate that has very little chance of winning benefits the candidate that is 'certain to come second', in fact if enough people do this the candidate that was 'certain to win' could easily lose.

Do you realize how despotic that is? Whether or not you and Sam Altman share the same goals I'd consider it deplorable if he used his power to punish Peter Thiel for his political views. Just because you agree with the underlying root issue doesn't make it any more just -- consider the reverse, if you would. Should Thiel remove acquaintances who support Hillary?

No, I'm sorry, you'll have to do a better job at connecting the dots between political criticism and despotism.

Political criticism would be Sam Altman telling Thiel he disagrees with his views, or better yet donating money/time to his own candidate.

It becomes despotism when someone uses their role in a non-political organization to silence (yes, donations are free speech) Trump supporters.

> donations are free speech

It's a donation so large that it would be impossible for the vast majority of Americans to participate in the same conversation. I question the decision to categorize it as pure free speech. It's qualitatively different from a $100 donation.

When liberal pundits get a platform from the NYT, his speech is qualitatively different than the opinion I write in my blog, yet I don't think we should legalize political retribution or censure against pundits who use too large a platform. Hopefully you agree?

So where do you draw the dollar line of protected free speech versus it's ok to punish that person for their political views?

$100 dollars is apparently protected free speech by your logic, but $1.25 million dollars is a punishable offense.

Is $1000 dollars ok? $10,000?, $100,000? Where are you going to draw the line.

Also, by this line of thinking then the converse must also apply; if someone donates to Clinton and someone in a position holding power over them supports Trump then they can equally dole out punishments...

And a celebrity's Tweet to 10 million followers is speech so large it would be impossible for the vast majority of Americans to rival. Doesn't mean it's not speech, and doesn't mean it shouldn't be protected—legally and socially.

No it is not. It's like saying since New York Times has more circulation than my blog they don't get to enjoy the First Amendment like I do. The underlying premise of it is "I'm ok with dissent but only when it does not really matter". No, quite the opposite - it is important to be OK with dissent exactly when it does matter. That's why the First Amendment exists - to protect speech that matters.

And it's quite possible for vast majority of Americans to participate - they are doing it right now, before your very eyes, it's an undeniable fact that this is exactly what is happening right now.

The first amendment protects you from government interference. It doesn't protect people from deciding not to do business with the New York Times because they don't like what the paper says. NYT is definitely big enough to not need that extreme level of protection.

Nobody gets that kind of protection, so the size is irrelevant in each case. That's the point - the size of it only matters if tolerance depends on ineffectiveness.

There are plenty of people on this page insisting that politics should be countered only with politics, not with shunning. That can be a good policy at a small scale, don't fire people because of how they vote, etc. But it's not a good policy at a large scale, of deciding whether you work with a big corporate institution (or someone with as much money and public face as one).

> There are plenty of people on this page insisting that politics should be countered only with politics, not with shunning

In most cases (BOCTAOE) this sounds like a good idea.

> But it's not a good policy at a large scale

What you mean by large scale? Like when you're state senator or president? Sure, you are welcome to cross that bridge when you come to it :)

> What you mean by large scale?

One qualifier would be giving a full speech at either the democrat or republican convention. That's intentionally putting yourself into the political system, and it's okay if people make business decisions based on it.

I think it's stupid to make business decisions based on just that (of course, the content of the speech matters - e.g. if you are a coal miner and the speaker says she will bankrupt coal miners, it's prudent for you to exercise extreme caution in dealing with such person). But that's not where we are at. We are at people trying to shame YC into making business decisions they obviously don't want to make based on shaming mob's political preferences.

OK, you're now forced to read the New York Times, and Drudge, and any other political publication, blog, rant, whatever.

Refusing to do so would infringe on their rights to free speech, so get to reading.

Sorry, you probably wanted to make a point but it makes no sense. Nobody said free speech requires to force anybody to read anything, and certainly Thiel's donation did not force anybody to do anything. Well, except for the obvjous thing of all citizens being forced to accept whoever is elected president, but that's the question of legitimacy of government which Thiel has nothing to do with.

Well, you're arguing that someone doesn't get to "enjoy the First Amendment" if we don't nod along and provide a compliant audience. Disagreeing or, worse, choosing not to associate with someone based on what they say is, to gauge from this thread, considered a terrible sin.

So: why aren't you out there providing an audience to speech you don't like?

> Well, you're arguing that someone doesn't get to "enjoy the First Amendment" if we don't nod along and provide a compliant audience.

No, that's not what I am arguing. What I am arguing is demanding that people will be purged from the community and everybody cuts ties with them because they views do not agree with yours is not a good thing. You can disagree with Thiel, you can argue with Thiel, you can ignore Thiel, you can do whatever you want. But if you demand that YC severs ties with Thiel because he committed thoughtcrimes - that's where lose my goodwill completely.

> Disagreeing or, worse, choosing not to associate with someone based on what they say is, to gauge from this thread, considered a terrible sin.

No, it's not. Nobody, including me, ever said disagreeing with Thiel is a "sin", let alone "terrible" one. Demanding that YC shuns him - even though they themselves obviously don't want to do it - because you are disagreeing with him - yes, that would be terrible.

> So: why aren't you out there providing an audience to speech you don't like?

Because I don't want to?

> No, that's not what I am arguing. What I am arguing is demanding that people will be purged from the community and everybody cuts ties with them because they views do not agree with yours is not a good thing. You can disagree with Thiel, you can argue with Thiel, you can ignore Thiel, you can do whatever you want. But if you demand that YC severs ties with Thiel because he committed thoughtcrimes - that's where lose my goodwill completely.

Thiel voluntarily choose to strongly support Trump without thinking he owed anyone an explanation. That's his prerogative, but it doesn't afford him much favors in the form of being a part of the community. People have the right not to support Thiel or organizations he is a part of. What do you suggest they do? Is it more fair to boycott YC and the companies they have invested in rather than to ask for the resignation of Thiel?

> Theil voluntarily choose to strongly support Trump without thinking he owed anyone an explanation.

He is right that he doesn't owe anybody anything, but he provided ample explanations for his actions anyway. They are easily accessible too.

> but it doesn't afford him much favors in the form of being a part of the community.

Is it me or you feel like you can decide who is part of the community and who is not? Why is that?

> People have the right not to support Thiel or organizations he is a part of.

Sure, they do. It's not what we are talking about. We are talking about people wanting the situation to be that "not to support Thiel" - including mandatory declaration of such non-support and cutting all ties with him - be the only right possible in this community. I don't want such a community. Such community sucks big time.

There's a big diff between "you are allowed to be vegetarian or to eat pork, as you wish" and "if you eat pork, you are outta here and everybody must never speak to you again". First is normal, second sounds like a totalitarian sect.

> Is it more fair to boycott YC and the companies they have invested in rather than to ask for the resignation of Thiel?

Neither is fair or sane.

> [...] but he provided ample explanations for his actions anyway.

As far as I know he hasn't provided any explanation for what people are actually concerned about.

> Is it me or you feel like you can decide who is part of the community and who is not? Why is that?

If you can decide that he is, why can't I decide that he isn't? In a society that respect the individual we can all decide who we want to associate with.

> Neither is fair or sane.

If people have the right not to support him then it's also their right to not support YC or any other organization they think is benefiting Thiel. You seem to expect a scenario where people should dismiss their own opinions so Thiel can enjoy more freedom.

> he hasn't provided any explanation for what people are actually concerned about.

That is kinda vague. His views and ideals are known, he wrote several essays on that AFAIK.

> If you can decide that he is, why can't I decide that he isn't?

I don't decide that he is, he is by the fact of the involvement. If he weren't, the calls to purge him would be not necessary.

> In a society that respect the individual we can all decide who we want to associate with.

Surely, but I see no respect to that right of the YC members - in fact, they are being shamed for exercising this right.

> f people have the right not to support him then it's also their right to not support YC or any other organization they think is benefiting Thiel.

Of course they have the right. It's the cause that they are promoting in their exercise of this right - the cause of groupthink, intellectual conformity and intolerance to dissent - that is terrible.

So, how legally punishable should a boycott be, in your view of the world?

And how do you justify, on free-speech grounds, trying to take away the right of people to engage in persuasive speech (hint: that's what it is when someone urges a boycott, or otherwise tries to urge someone to do something)?

Finally, are you consistent in this position? Or is it only when the victim is someone you like that you break out the insipid "thoughtcrime" lines?

Ellen Pao is free to boycott Thiel if she wishes. It becomes a gray area when she boycotts third parties. The only reason why it's a gray area though is because she has little to no power over them.

A boycott is fair if it is below. Consumers choosing not to buy products, investors deciding not to buy stock, halting a newspaper subscription or not associating with former friends.

But a boycott from above is a tyranny. Firing employees for their political views, trying to get your mutual friends to disassociate with your former friend.

So if it's me calling for a boycott of a bunch of people richer than me, is that OK? All the YC partners, part- or full-time, are richer than me.

Because I can say right now: if I ever need another job or want to start a company, I'm not going to work for a YC-funded company or accept money from YC, and I encourage others to do the same. If that means, in your eyes, that I am the most brutal extortionate blackmailing tyrannical despot in the history of brutal extortionate blackmailing tyrannical despots, and will single-handedly destroy the American republic forever by being Literally Worse Than Hitler™, I can live with that.

However, I can predict with some certainty that someday somebody's going to do something you don't like, you're going to make an argument that crosses the line you yourself drew, and that I'm going to be really amused when someone gives you the lecture you're giving other people right now, because ultimately the harshest thing I can do to someone like you is hope you someday get to live in a world that holds the values you've espoused.

> So if it's me calling for a boycott of a bunch of people richer than me, is that OK? All the YC partners, part- or full-time, are richer than me.

Not advocating it of course, but you are within your rights to do so. It is not illegal or immoral. A boycott is very different to an employer punishing employees with firings for their political views.

That said; I also believe (not talking legal, this is my opinion) employers are within their rights to hire whoever they wish. Particularly they are not obligated to hire people who they believe will disrupt their company. It is best practice to separate politics from business, and still be aware that humans are political animals at the same time, I hope that makes sense.

Ellen Pao is unlikely to hire a libertarian, technocommerialist or neoreactionary but that is okay. However she cannot advocate against them by blackmailing other people, that would be stepping over the line. It would be wrong were Peter Thiel to lean on companies to fire Democrats and hippies, though he is highly suspicious about hippies.

> However, I can predict with some certainty that someday somebody's going to do something you don't like, you're going to make an argument that crosses the line you yourself drew, and that I'm going to be really amused when someone gives you the lecture you're giving other people right now, because ultimately the harshest thing I can do to someone like you is hope you someday get to live in a world that holds the values you've espoused.

Maybe. I cannot know future-me. However I do know I'm content for Communists to exist and they represent the furthest political position from mine.

My position is that exit (voting with feet) is preferable to voice (voting/media), so that if we have lots of variety intellectually and people are free to move from one position to another it shall produce more productive outcomes. That means that even groups of people I heavily dislike would have room to spread their wings.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with our political ideas but since they will be located in an independent Seastead or SEZ (similar to the factions in the Diamond Age) the fallout from awful policies won't affect me personally. At most interventions would only occur if people were being prevented from leaving. I think this would produce interesting results and a faster political evolution than the world witnesses today. After all I'm sure you'll agree, it is highly likely we both have strongly held priors that are false, but cannot know it until it is demonstrated. With competition and natural selection we can be more scientific about politics.

You are spectacularly missing the point. You are not required to listen to anything Thiel says. But you are required to tolerate the fact that he says things.

Except according to all these eerily-similar HN commenters, if I speak up and say I don't like what he says, or that I'll refuse to associate with him or his supporters, or encourage other people to do the same, well, clutch my pearls and fetch the smelling salts! That's tyranny! Despotism! Bullying! Shaming! Witch hunting! Extortion! Blackmail! Coercion! Censorship! Oppression! Groupthink! Punishing thoughtcrime!

So what it seems these folks really want is "Trump and Thiel can say what they want and nobody's allowed to speak up or out against them, and must associate with and financially aid them or else". Which is not how I envision freedom of speech working.

What was your opinion of the Hollywood blacklists?

Given that they were largely government-imposed (in the sense that the government actively threatened businesses who didn't blacklist suspected "Communists"), I don't see an analogy to private individuals advocating for/against particular views or associations.

If Trump called for a boycott of a company, would you condemn him for it?

Those "threats" were prominent politicians saying negative things about the businesses. So the blacklists were exactly as "government-imposed" as boycotts of Trump, given the many prominent politicians saying negative things about Trump and his voters today.

That is to say, not at all.

>If Trump called for a boycott of a company, would you condemn him for it?

Depends on the reason for the boycott, of course. If he was calling for the boycott of a company because its founder donated to Hillary Clinton, or Jill Stein, or American Socialist Party nominee Mimi Soltysik, or even the Devil himself, then of course I would condemn him for it. I'm sorry to hear you wouldn't have the same resolve.

(I'll save you a few minutes of Googling, by the way, and pre-emptively condemn him just in case he has done something like that and I haven't heard about it. Trump is a jackass.)

Ah yes, "politicians saying negative things". That's a nice euphemism for "Congressional hearings".

Let me just ask, then: were you this vocal and this active on the internet when the whole "people don't want to bake wedding cakes for same-sex couples" stuff was making news, and lots of people were showing support for the cake-bakers and encouraging association/disassociation based on "beliefs"?

Just asking because despite claims, an awful lot of y'all who make these arguments seem to be inconsistent on that stuff (I think pg describes it as a "blind spot").

I have no idea what trap you think you're setting here. Perhaps you should rephrase your statement in a less roundabout way.

> it would be impossible for the vast majority of Americans to participate in the same conversation

But isn't the majority of funding Trump is receiving coming from small donations from lots of Americans?

I get that money in politics is a frequent source of concern but this doesn't look like one of those occasions.

(a) Pretty sure that's not what "despotism" means.

(b) Pretty sure Thiel isn't going to shut up no matter what Sam Altman does.

(c) Pretty sure political criticism doesn't mean "the kinds of criticism I am comfortable hearing" --- in fact, pretty sure John Stuart Mill specifically warns against using discomfort as a litmus test for criticism.

(d) Pretty sure Thiel did more than simply donate to Donald Trump.

(e) Pretty sure the declaration that YC is a "non-political organization" is one you made, not one that YC did, and further pretty sure that nobody at YC agrees that their actions are cabined by your (so-far-unstated) definition of what a "non-political organization" is.

(f) Pretty sure YC has already threatened to blacklist organizations that disagree with them politically.

Oh, I could go on, and on, and on. But do we really need to?

I really suggest you take each of these points in turn and consider how you would feel if the candidate in question was HRC instead of Trump.

You're also missing the issue. It's not so much about Thiel but the message it sends: your professional career is at stake if you support the wrong candidate. I do not support Trump but I find that completely unacceptable.

Sorry, I am really not too concerned about the career implications of suggesting that someone who owns multiple McLarens stop endorsing someone who could plausibly purchase McLaren Automotive.

Again, that's not what we're talking about. Suggest away, until you're blue in the face. I encourage it. The problem is when you advocate actionable, tangible retribution against people not listening to those suggestions.

Suggest away, we say, as long as you don't suggest something that makes us uncomfortable.

Who's talking about feeling uncomfortable? We're talking about actively punishing people for their political opinions. I can't tell if you're deliberately misreading the discussion.

So in your opinion is there any logically-possible situation in which it is morally acceptable to choose to cease associating with someone over incommensurable views? Have you ever done it yourself? Do you feel morally obligated to be a business partner of people who support Hillary Clinton, since to choose not to would "punish" and "silence" their speech?

I'm perfectly ok with that, I'm just not ok with pushing others to do likewise.

So it's OK to speak as long as you don't try to persuade someone of something?

If somebody's up on a soapbox giving speeches about their views, and I disagree with their views, should I not get up on my own soapbox and explain why I disagree and think people shouldn't buy that other guy's arguments?

If I think someone has a poor business history, should I keep silent when somebody else considers a partnership? Or should I speak up and say "I think that's a bad partnership" and try to persuade them?

You seem to have a view of speech being allowed so long as the first speaker is privileged never to be disagreed with by a later speaker, and never to have anyone try to persuade others not to accept the first speaker's argument. That's not how free speech works.

You are over-generalizing. Trying to persuade others in "something" is completely fine. Unless "something" happens to be "let's institute groupthink and shun anybody who dares to disagree with our views" and then it's terrible. Not the fact of persuading is terrible, but the content of this particular persuasion.

So... people with similar views can't congregate together, and people with irreconcilable views can't just decide to stay away from each other, in your world.

Or is it a percentage thing? When 50.0000001% of a group of people share an opinion, would you like the police to swoop in and start forcibly preventing speech just in case more people might be persuaded of the idea and join the "groupthink"?

(also, funny thing, there's a lot of diversity in the anti-Thiel/anti-Trump opinions, but a whole lot of "wow, these people all seem to be reading the same script" in the pro-Thiel/pro-Trump, so maybe consider carefully who you'd like to accuse of groupthink. Oh wait, crap, I just tried to persuade someone to take an action; never mind, I'll see myself off to the labor camp)

> people with similar views can't congregate together, and people with irreconcilable views can't just decide to stay away from each other, in your world.

Oh, surely they can. I just won't be a part of a groupthink community and would oppose the effort of turning whole technology community into such. If you want to organize "Trump haters of Silicon Valley" meetup, feel free to. As long as you are not going to demand that "Trump lovers of Silicon Valley" meetup is shut down and meetup.com deletes their account. See the difference?

> Or is it a percentage thing?

It's not a percentage thing, it's a mindset thing. The fact that you turn to police and coercion all the time is another sign. The point is that we need to be open to coexisting with people that disagree with us, and that's a good thing. The urge to run for a safe space and surround oneself with a warm fuzzy cloak of groupthink is a natural one, but it's not a good thing if you want a healthy and intellectually honest and vibrant community around you.

> but a whole lot of "wow, these people all seem to be reading the same script" in the pro-Thiel/pro-Trump,

Of course, people that agree with you are all independent intellectual powerhouses, and people that disagree with you are all mindless drones zombified by Evil Powers. Funny how it happens like that all the time, eh?

Funny. People suggest exercising their right to associate or not, freely as they choose, and exercising their right to use persuasive speech, and you equate it to the use of force, to censorship, to silencing.

And double funny: it started with trying to persuade someone to disassociate from the campaign/supporters of a man who literally talks about wielding the law to silence journalism he doesn't like.

I don't see anything funny with it. It's not the fact they speak or associate that is a problem. It's the goal of that speech and association - ensure that voicing dissent and disagreeing with orthodoxy would endanger one's economic and social well-being, to the point that nobody dares to do so.

> who literally talks about wielding the law to silence journalism

This is, of course, despicable and should be condemned. I certainly think it's one of the worst qualities in Trump and understand how that could be a deal-breaker for people not to vote for him.

On the other hand, he is running against the candidate who has promised to use not just private libel law, but the full force of federal government regulatory machine to suppress the speech of her political opponents (and when I say "her opponents" I am not being rhetorical - it's the speech against her personally that she found so objectionable that needed the First Amendment to be overridden). And who was the member of the administration that was documented to use federal government to oppress political opponents.

So I can also understand how for other people it can look prudent to choose the lesser evil (private lawsuits) over the bigger evil (systematic governmental oppression).

In any case, both positions are legitimate and should be debated and put forward on the market of ideas. The idea, however, that association with one of these must make you a pariah - I don't think that will market very well. Or that I want to visit a market where it markets well.

You can try to persuade someone but I think public shaming and blackmail are across the line.

> it is morally acceptable to choose to cease associating with someone over incommensurable views

For you? A lot of situations are morally acceptable. For you to demand others to do it, even though they clearly not inclined to? Very narrow set of situations, mostly involving heinous crimes.

Citizen! You have attempted to influence the thoughts or actions of another! Hold position and await the arrival of constables who will arrest you for violating the Anti-Groupthink Act 2016!

Your thoughts jump to police and coercion all the time. Why is that? Nobody is trying to coerce you to anything, unless you see other individuals voluntarily associating as some kind of coercion on you.

People discussing with whom they will or will not associate is, in this very HN thread, referred to as "tyranny", "despotism", "blackmail", "extortion", and of course you yourself went for the oppression/"thoughtcrime" angle.

Yet one satirical comment lampooning it is "jump to police and coercion all the time" and "why is that".

I suggest you get checked out, you've got more projection going on than an overbooked IMAX theater.

Are you categorically opposed to punishing people for political opinions, or is it a matter of crossing a certain threshold? For instance, what if Trump had openly advocated putting Muslims in "internment camps" and Thiel had donated a billion dollars to his campaign? Would you still believe that severing a business relationship with him would be immoral?

But Trump HADN'T suggested that; and THAT is why it is immoral. He's a major party candidate supported by 40% of the American population, not Adolph Hitler.

It's way beyond mere feeling uncomfortable, it's building a community based on groupthink and intolerance to dissent. At this point, plain uncomfortable is a distant dream we yearn for.

Well, we're not exactly talking about HRC either. Focus, don't dilute the topic. There are actual words by PG, SA that can be compared to Thiel's. The dissonance between them is the problem here, especially as relates to YC policies.

tl;dr: does YC doing nothing about Thiel mean "culture fit" is dead as a concept?

Okay, now we're talking. So what's the maximum amount of money someone is allowed to have before they are no longer allowed to express political opinions you, personally, don't like? $10 million? $1 million? $100,000?

I don't give a damn who you vote for in the privacy of the voting booth, and I'm not going to go digging in your background to figure out who you might have voted for. But when you make an announcement to the world that "This is what I am for", I'm damn well going to judge you for it.

Go right ahead and judge all you want. The question is, are you then going to try to get that person fired for the crime of stating their beliefs in public?

Depending on what their beliefs are, I may well choose not to engage in business with them, or hang out where they hang out, or whatnot. Others may choose to do the same. This may result in firing. So it goes.

Exactly. Because those writers and directors held Communist views, Hollywood executives chose not to engage in business with them. That may have resulted in firing. So it goes.

Or is that different somehow?

@jowiar: when you adopt that stance, you really have to be sure you are on the "right" side of every important position. I hope you are and will be so that you never have to face tangible oppression for your beliefs.

I was bullied out of my Catholic youth group in high school for my beliefs (read: A bunch of people I had considered friends started calling me a baby killer). It happens. It pushed me to hanging out with better people (read: The new youth minister was a total tool. He replaced a great guy).

Consequences of being on the "wrong" side of things will cause people to think first and speak later, rather than loudly stake out territory without thinking things through. I'm all for that.

Sure, but is it okay with you if these "consequences" are being unable to work and provide for one's family? Because that's the sort of "consequences" the media -- and useful idiots like the author of the original article -- are ordering us to believe are appropriate for disagreeing with their politics.

Woe is me, poor little billionaire, unable to work because I managed to find more money than most people will see in their lives burning a hole in my pocket and, in my billionaire wisdom, thought it was worth trying to elect the closest thing the US has seen to Benito Mussolini.

Look, I didn't like GW Bush, I didn't like Mitt Romney, but I would not shun folks who voted for them, or donated to their campaigns. Donald Trump is running on a platform centered around the belief that certain people deserve fewer rights than others. Donating to the Prop 8 campaign was taking an explicit position that certain people deserve fewer rights than others.

>Woe is me, poor little billionaire...

What's the monetary threshold beyond which it's okay to harass people and fire them for their jobs for their political beliefs? Let's have a number.

The number where you use it to harass others?

"Political beliefs" is another word for "opinions", and the crazy thing about opinions is you can change them. And the ones that you hold reflect on you.

>The number where you use it to harass others?

Who, specifically, is Thiel harassing? Let's have some names, since you seem so confident in your accusation.

>"Political beliefs" is another word for "opinions", and the crazy thing about opinions is you can change them. And the ones that you hold reflect on you.

Exactly. All those screenwriters have to do is change their opinions about Communism, and they're good to go.

Well, what if Thiel supports David Duke or comes out as a holocaust denier -- would you still claim that Thiel's professional career can't be at stake?

There's a difference between David Duke and a mainstream party candidate supported by roughly 40% of the American population.

First, Trump is supported by roughly 40% of likely voters, not all Americans. Second, just because a belief is widely held doesn't automatically make it more acceptable than it would be if it were less common.

In the July 1932 German Federal Election, the National Socialist German Workers Party received 37.3% of the vote. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_July_...

> [Sam's] continued support for Peter Thiel is harming the goal he shares with me of preventing a Trump Presidency now, or in 2020

> (b) Pretty sure Thiel isn't going to shut up no matter what Sam Altman does.

The seeming dissonance here is interesting to me. Can you explain in more detail what outcome you're expecting will occur if Thiel is removed from YC, and how that will impact the election?

(b) Then what's the point? Just hurt Thiel? Demand virtue signal from Altman? Ritual purity?

(c) Surely so, but I am inclined to draw the distinction between "policies X advocating are wrong" and "Y must shun X for advocating the policies or be shunned himself". The first promotes the conversation, the second shuts it down.

(f) Prooflink?

pg: Several of those companies send people to Demo Day, and when I saw the list I thought: we should stop inviting them. So yes, we'll remove anyone from those companies from the Demo Day invite list.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3382765

thank you!

I don't know the context of that decision but I'm fairly sure even if pg is being inconsistent that two wrongs would not make a right so I hate seeing that kind of rebuttal being handed out as if it's a QED. It is not. It's whataboutism.

> yes, donations are free speech

Donations are free speech with respect to the government. No one is questioning Thiel's free speech rights. People are responding with more free speech as is their right. No one is silencing Trump supporters.

Democracy is not a safe space.

I'm sorry, I do not understand how Thiel or any other Trump supporter would be harmed if Sam or Paul exercised their rights to terminate their relationship with him. It would be an act of expression, would it not, to abrogate their partnership? Are you suggesting a chilling effect similar to that caused by surveillance?

Honestly, there's so much vitriol being hosed on everything this election touches, if one stops and looks objectively at the YC/Thiel equation, is it any more than this:

Thiel's views are not compatible with the culture that YC espouses (citations already offered in other comments). Thiel has exercised his right to express his beliefs by supporting a particular political candidate, and direct harm to others as a result cannot be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. YC has the right to express their beliefs by ending their agreement with Thiel, and direct harm to others as a result cannot be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. It's therefore a purely ethical choice, which by definition, is subjective, and either results in YC exercising their right to express themselves freely, or YC opting to withhold that expression without giving up their right to any future expression.

I don't support YC's position in this matter, but I do support their right to have one. I don't support Thiel or Trump either, but I do support the rights that enable their expression. It is my right to expression that enables me to speak out, and hope, yes, to change the minds of others; not to convince anyone to agree with me, mind you, but to be honest with themselves, and to be principled in their actions.

I find it ironic that Thiel, who claims that democracy and capitalism are no longer compatible (and it appears if he were forced to choose he'd ditch democracy) is being defended by calling someone else "despotic".

Actual Thiel quote is "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible,"[1]. It is nice to see that capitalism is equated with freedom, that's the right mindset but not what Thiel actually said.

If one is forced to choose between freedom and democracy, I don't see any moral choice but to choose freedom. After all, when slavery was democratically supported in the US, was it still wrong? I think it was. Do you think it is a "despotic" opinion?

[1] https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/...

Well, Peter Thiel does think freedom and democracy are compatible, just only when the democracy is restricted to people who think and vote like Peter Thiel.

And, well, "Democracy is great as long as the franchise is restricted to people like me" is not exactly democracy, and not exactly something with great historical precedents on its side, y'know?

There are great historical precedents. The first democracy, Athenian democracy, allowed only 50,000 out of 300,000 citizens to vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy

> Peter Thiel does think freedom and democracy are compatible, just only when the democracy is restricted to people who think and vote like Peter Thiel.

This claim is based on what exactly?

> Democracy is great as long as the franchise is restricted to people like me" is not exactly democracy,

True but why you mention it here? Surely neither Thiel nor anybody here advocated such point of view. So who you are arguing with?

Thiel has openly commented, for example, that he thinks "democratic capitalism" has been harmed, if not outright destroyed, by extending the franchise to women. And of course Trump's own supporters had their "repeal the 19th" trending moment on Twitter over the discovery that women voting could make the difference in their candidate winning or losing.

So... I'm arguing with the public, verifiable actions and statements of Trump and his supporters, among whom one finds Peter Thiel.

> Thiel has openly commented, for example, that he thinks "democratic capitalism" has been harmed, if not outright destroyed, by extending the franchise to women

Actual quote:

The 1920s were the last decade in American history during which one could be genuinely optimistic about politics. Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women — two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians — have rendered the notion of “capitalist democracy” into an oxymoron.[1]

As we can see, especially if we read the whole article and grasp the context, Thiel is not arguing that women voting per se is bad. He is arguing that the consequences of woman suffrage and other changes since 1920s were summarily bad, because it led to increase of government intervention.

Imagine somebody saying "last redistricting led to Trump supporters now having majority in my state's Senate, this is awful" - do you think he argues against Trump voters having voting rights or against concept of electoral districts? He is unhappy with the outcome, not the process that led to it.

Thus, it is clear that what Thiel objects is removal of freedoms and not giving it to somebody who is "not like him".

[1] https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/educatio...

That's some interesting goal-post moving you're doing there, from "women are problematic voters" to "this district's voting is problematic". Here, let me help you with something Trump hasn't said directly, but has implied repeatedly over the last week: "black people have the right to vote, this is awful".

So you can move the goal post both others can't. Got it.

Thank you for this.

Part of the reason I've mostly checked out of political discussion is because it's so partisan. I flat out don't believe half the things people claim Trump said. In most cases either the quote is cherry picked or the context is flat out misconstrued.

I've lost count of how many times I've seen outrage at something Hilary or Trump said or wrote, only to conclude what was said was reasonable and the outrage was manufactured for and by stupid people.

>If one is forced to choose between freedom and democracy, I don't see any moral choice but to choose freedom.

An odd choice to equate freedom with capitalism but not with democracy. You are holding the right to control private trade more free than the right of some to representative government; in other words, the freedom of few over many.

Why is it odd? Democracy, strictly meant as rule by the majority, voting, etc. by itself is not freedom. Majority can oppress minority in a very democratic manner. Of course, modern democracy implies many freedoms built in, so when we say "democracy" we should be aware which meaning we consider.

> You are holding the right to control private trade

Capitalism is the opposite of "right to control private trade" - it's the right to own and exchange property voluntarily, without forceful intervention. So it is part of the freedoms. Of course, it can exist in theory without representative government, though in practice such government very soon takes control over economics and thus capitalism can exist only within limits it prescribes.

Unless you're a utopian anarchist some form of government is essential to the operation of society. The alternative to democracy is non-representational government. In other words, democracy may not define freedom by itself, but it's absence is certainly non-free. Feel free to point to a government that is non-democratic or imposes significant restrictions on democracy that has a free society.

On the other hand there are a number of countries that restrict capitalism in some way but have free societies.

Of course it depends on what you mean by "freedom"; if you mean it is "free to move capital around" but not "everyone is free to elect their leaders" then sure, but that is not how I understand the term.

[OT but pretty pathetic that I got downvoted for my previous comment by someone. Tempting to speculate it was (hilariously and ironically) by a Thiel supporter sore at the idea that he might have his views being suppressed.]

There is a large gap between "democracy" and "representation".

I feel this is instinctively understood by every Sanders supporter who claims "we're not in a real democracy!" or "we don't have enough democracy", but they are using the wrong word. They are living in a republic with a democracy but they aren't seriously represented.

Representation is the telos of democracy but it does not always achieve it.

And that is why everybody should become a reactionary. Only by returning to first principals will everybody get what they really want. There's too much cruft!

> Feel free to point to a government that is non-democratic or imposes significant restrictions on democracy that has a free society.

China. Singapore. Japan. Korea.

All these states have some kind of democracy. Yes, even Communist China does have some democracy. All these states have significant restrictions on it. In the most democratic ones power has been in the same hands about 90% of the time.

> Of course it depends on what you mean by "freedom"; if you mean it is "free to move capital around" but not "everyone is free to elect their leaders" then sure, but that is not how I understand the term.

Let me help you out. It is certainly the case that the word freedom has become seriously overloaded, much like the word democracy. Most of us see freedom to mean autonomy in this context.

In a practical example if the BBC requires you to pay for a TV license because you own a visual display then your freedom is reduced because your number of choices is being narrowed. You have less autonomy because even if you don't watch TV or the BBC channels you are forced to pay for their services anyway.

Another practical example is I hear the people in Flint are paying for poisoned water and have no choice in the matter otherwise their houses and belongings may be possessed by the state sending debt collectors.

* his continued support for Peter Thiel is harming the goal he shares with me of preventing a Trump Presidency now, or in 2020.*

You're worried that someone might read his endorsement of Hillary , then realise a business partner of his suppprts Trump and decide to vote for Trump instead?

I fail to see how anyone who knows who Sam Altman or Y Combinator is would follow that line of thought.

I don't have to worry about it. I can just read threads on Hacker News and see people rationalize Thiel's involvement and suggest that it implies a Trump Presidency is less dangerous than we think it is. I can look at this exact thread and see numerous people arguing that Trump isn't dangerous at all.

People can believe what they want. But Altman and Graham have a stated objective to convince people not to support Donald Trump. I'm doing them no favors by hiding the fact of how their actions work against that goal.

So, your argument is that people who, because of Thiel's donation, aren't as afraid of a Trump presidency as they should be, those people need to know that Graham and Altman have cut their ties with Thiel, rather than that they simply disagree with him, and that, by insufficiently ostracizing their friend and business partner, Graham and Altman are somehow sabotaging their stated goal of reducing Trump's support?

You also have to consider that Thiel himself very likely is not a racist (and obviously not a homophobe etc.). He likely does not see Trump as racist or sexist. He may be misguided and may hold some crazy and infeasible ideas, but Thiel doesn't seem evil to me. He's probably attracted to Trump's other features and rationalizes the rest of his behavior.

This is the problem with the needle Altman is trying to thread: he is leaving open the question of whether Trump is as bad as Altman himself says he is. I agree strongly with Altman --- as you can probably tell --- that Trump is exactly this bad. If Altman means what he says, he should do what he can to shut this question down.

>I am not here to argue that people who oppose Hillary Clinton should change their minds (they should, though!).

This probably isn't the appropriate place for it, but have you written about your reasons that people should support Clinton anywhere else?

Maybe his goals include more than just preventing Trump Presidency? I mean, it may be that somebody thinks literally nothing is more important than preventing Trump from becoming President - after all, there was already a guy who tried to assassinate Trump - but I think claiming that's only possible way to think is going too far. There might be other priorities in life too.

To be more precise, you're here to make demands that people who disagree with you politically be exiled from polite society.

No. In fact, not just no, but hell no.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gUAdAYFbIc

Highly disingenuous. First of all, even Bernie Sanders agrees that having open borders will causes wages to plummet. It's the dream of the Koch brothers.

Second, Hillary didn't vote for 10 ft wall and never proposed a 10ft wall. She voted for the Secure Fence act of 2006:

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hr6061

This isn't a wall, it's fencing placed at various spots across the border.

Stop lying.

This person gets it. Our society is under threat by more than just Trump or Hilary.

> I could not vote for either of the two major party candidates

That's the worst part of this election. I really dislike HRC. Her alleged crimes to me are much more significant than even the rape allegations against Trump. They affect more people, and they move our country in the direction of a corporate oligarchy.

But my alternative is Trump? Sexist, racist, and has unresolved sexual assault allegations against him? That's who you want me to vote for to keep HRC out of office?

Holy shit!

I dislike the entire primary system, party system, and all of the other baggage that goes with it.

I feel like my voice as a voter isn't adequately represented by EITHER candidate that is left.

Maybe instant runoff disapproval voting would be a better option; remove the most hated candidate from each iteration until a winner is left.

I don't disagree regarding Trump, but where do we draw the line? Should any employer who's executive board strongly denounces Trump's views and rhetoric fire employees who support him via donations? Should Google suppress his website?

I don't think Trump is the real threat to society, but rather that he is able to garner such widespread support in American society in 2016, and I don't think that's going to be fixed by taking punitive actions against his supporters.

Theil's not an employee. What are you suggesting when asking where do we draw the line? To require defining how racist is racist enough? I think we all know the line for Trump was crossed. Money is political speech, which Theil can legally do. But no one has to accept his collaboration.

> To require defining how racist is racist enough?

That word just never ceases to be a source of power and comfort to you, doesn't it? Liberals have used that word too often to shut down debate and dehumanize their opponent or victim. We're done giving you that super power anymore. Now you'll have to make real arguments.

It's not racist to wish to enforce current immigration law. It's not racist to wish to protect the jobs and lives of American citizens.

Hey, why didn't you talk about what a homophobe he is? Well, I'm sure you'll use it next time, when Thiel is not the subject of your outrage.

sigh

Just a coincidence Trump continues to accuse the Central Park teenagers of a murder for which they were acquited long ago.

Just a coincidence Trump supports "stop and frisk", even though it has been shown to be applied disproportionately to African Americans.

Just a coincidence Trump said a Mexican judge could not fairly adjudicate his case because he was Mexican.

I could go on and on and on until my fingers got tired typing.

Racist objectively applies to Donald Trump, its just what the word means.

I'm sorry, but I must ask your fingers to become more tired, as your three cases are not the smoking gun of the dreaded racism that you seem to believe they are.

The Central Park Five have a lot more people than Donald Trump believing they were falsely acquitted. There were multiple confessions. "I didn't rape her, all I did was feel her tits, but I know who did". Kind of shit, before the body was even discovered. That's not racist, that's just disagreement with a verdict.

The "Mexican Judge", as you call it, has a name. His name is Gonzalo Curiel, and he is a prominent member of La Raza Lawyers. La Raza, meaning "The Race", is a pro mexican organization that would be understandably adversarial to Trump's position of enforcing existing immigration laws and building a wall with Mexico. That Trump would feel that such a judge is not impartial, given his stange rulings in the case that far, is not racist, it's deductive logic.

"Stop and Frisk" is problematic. Stop and Frisk can be said to be a tread on your 4th Amendment "search and seizure" protection. We can both agree that this freedom is rapidly being violated in a number of ways today already. I am torn between the need to do something different to keep Chicago black youth from killing each other in such large numbers and the desire to not add yet another stain on the fourth amendment. The contention that "stop and frisk" is bad because of profiling, misses several points. It is quite possible that a version of "stop and frisk" that would satisfy the profiling objection that you have, could satisfy method of reducing Chicago black homicides. Somebody talking about "Stop and Frisk" as a possible way to save lives, is not racist, they are looking for answers.

The line you're repeating about the Central Park Five is a pernicious lie, and you should stop using it. The actual assailants involved --- not the five juveniles convicted --- both confessed and were tied to the crime through DNA evidence.

I don't think it's fair to paint supporters of 'stop and frisk' as racists. A friend of mine is a cop in Chicago and told me recently, to my surprise, that the biggest supporters of these policies are actually the ordinary families living in bad neighborhoods who have a "do whatever it takes" attitude towards reducing the violent crime on their doorsteps. Personally I would support pushing decisions like this down to the most local level possible. If the residents of Fuller Park or Englewood or other neighborhoods in Chicago want stop and frisk, then let them vote for it in the affirmitive, and let it be enforced only in those areas, as an act of self-governance, implemented in a transparent and accountable way that will satisfy critics as to its constitutionality.

I live near the corner of Austin and Madison in Chicago (you seem familiar with the geography and that you'd know what that implies) and I do not believe it is the case that residents of that neighborhood have a general attitude of "let the police do whatever they need to to reduce crime". I can be more specific if we need to be.

More importantly, we have a Constitution precisely so that the residents of crime-stricken neighborhoods cannot simply vote to repeal protections they've stopped liking. By the way? If neighborhoods had that ability, I'm fairly certain Kenilworth would make a lot more use of it than Englewood.

Q: Was the police technique of “stop-and-frisk” found unconstitutional?

A: The practice is not unconstitutional, but a judge ruled in 2013 that New York City’s stop-and-frisk program was carried out in a manner that violated the U.S. Constitution.

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/09/is-stop-and-frisk-unconstit...

You are not responding to my comment.

Presumably if it was implemented in a Constitutional way then you wouldn't be as opposed to a community electing to self-impose it. I see that as extension of the community policing movement. As to what the voting majorities in these communities actually believe (or would vote for), I doubt it's possible to know unless put to the test (despite anecdotes from both of us).

What is the standard for being racist then? When Trump says that a judge isn't fit to do his job because his parents were Mexican, what do we call that? His continued persecution of the Central Park 5?

@ggggtez Those who think that Trump is the most divisive and dangerous candidate ever have short memories or don't remember Richard Nixon or Barry Goldwater. I certainly do not support Trump and wholly disagree with whatever little bits of policy that he has discussed throughout his campaign, but I also try to be historically honest about context.

For example, some might forget the things that Bill Clinton did before and during his Presidency which were opportunistic, sexist, and at times, borderline racist. For example, things like personally overseeing the execution of a mentally deficient inmate to show that he was tough on crime (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Ray_Rector), or chasing a woman around his office and biting her (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juanita_Broaddrick).

I realize Hillary is not Bill, however she supported him throughout his career through numerous serious ethical and character missteps, never left him, and now has him stumping for her on the campaign trail, which sort of makes her a de facto supporter of his behavior. Is Thiel's support of Trump really so bad that he should be ostracized and cut off? That doesn't solve the root problem of Trump's support, and it's not something I believe has any place in an enlightened society.

Agreed - open up any religious text. There are a few pages that make Trump's talking points sound progressive by comparison. We don't marginalize religious donors. We should not marginalize Trump donors. It is a dangerous and divisive sort of tribalism that we should not engage in.

If religion X rules the world, it's possible that there will be bad consequences. If Trump becomes President, it's possible there will be bad consequences. Should our confidence score for either of these eventualities determine how we treat those who think the opposite? I think that is at the heart of these issues.

I can only point to my own government and it's laws (Sweden), but "threat to society" is not an exception in our free speech laws. Threat to individuals or identifiable groups (ie, minorities) are.

There is a distinction between someone speaking words of non-violent revolution, ie a explicit threat to society, and words that encourage violence against a group of people. The first is not illegal, and both the law and the philosophy that created that law do not make claims that it should be illegal. The second form is, which is a direct result of that post-World-War-2 liberal philosophy. It is important to distinguish the two, and free speech laws is a good hint that society has already done this in the past.

In general, groups that want to suspend tolerance do so because they believe tolerating such behavior/people poses a threat to society. The people you are telling to read more liberal philosophy clearly believe that the real threat to a tolerant society is suspending tolerance itself.

Just to start things off, you do realize that firing him would appear to be illegal? At least, assuming there are no arcane reasons why California's laws do not apply here:

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/HowToFileLinkCodeSections.htm

Labor Code section 1101

Protects employees who engage or participate in politics or who become candidates for public office. An employer may not make, adopt, or enforce any rule, regulation or policy that forbids, controls, directs or tends to direct the political activities or affiliations of employees.

---

On to the philosophical point, why not go back to Karl Popper? If we look carefully, though, we see that he predicated this intolerance of intolerance on protection from violence. He was not afraid of any intolerance of words so much as those who would close their ears and swing their fists. So it was more a sort of right of self defense against anyone who would use violence and not persuasion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper

Note how his argument is predicated on the need to protect people from violence. Unless that is a need there simply isn't a reason to ban things.

But wait, the Trump supporters have been violent, right? That was all over the news, I'm sure. Everyone saw that. So we have good reason to suppress a violent movement now, do we not? Well, maybe, if we didn't see this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=5IuJGHuIkzY

Wait, no, that guy made ACORN videos. Can't be trusted! Must be fake! But, umm, we've seen that lady before. At about 17:40 in this video, you see the same person: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uMzYaO2syE

You can even see a tiny mole on her chest in the same place. She's there, blocking the road and doing everything possible to delay the cops from clearing that out. But how do we know who she really works for? Well, what do you know, she's listed on the FEC website, they can tell us! (We can trust the FEC... right?)

https://beta.fec.gov/data/disbursements/?two_year_transactio...

Spender Recipient State Purpose Disbursement date Amount STAND UP FOR OHIO PAC RODRIGUEZ, ZULEMA AZ REIMBURSEMENT FOR T-SHIRT PRINTING 06-10-2016 $320.00 STAND UP FOR OHIO PAC RODRIGUEZ, ZULEMA AZ POLITICAL CONSULTING FEE 06-01-2016 $17,500.00 MOVEON.ORG POLITICAL ACTION ZULEMA RODRIGUEZ AZ TRAVEL EXP 05-24-2016 $1,108.97 MOVEON.ORG POLITICAL ACTION RODRIGUEZ, ZULEMA AZ REIMBURSEMENT 05-24-2016 $1,108.97 HILLARY FOR AMERICA RODRIGUEZ, ZULEMA AZ PHONE 02-29-2016 $30.00 HILLARY FOR AMERICA RODRIGUEZ, ZULEMA AZ PAYROLL 02-29-2016 $1,610.24

In other news, she brags about her work at other protests where you may have seen pictures of a very injured cop. Lest we forget, remember that they also framed Sanders supporters for some of this stuff.

Given that this violence was deliberate, do you also, based on that philosophic reasoning, support the same censure of anyone who supports Hillary? It would appear to be the logical conclusion to your argument given the campaign's deliberate violence, would it not?

For the record, I find Trump a deplorable candidate. But the very idea that people would attempt to force us into a one party system by means of organized violence or excommunication from society won't sit well with many people. Especially not when it also appears that people are also herein advocating an action that appears to be flat-out illegal!

In addition to being QUITE POSSIBLY ILLEGAL, it would also be QUITE THE MAGIC TRICK, since Peter Thiel is not an employee of Sam Altman, and the organization Sam Altman runs is famous for being built around the essay "How To Start A Startup", which suggests that a unique strength of startups versus normal companies is that they aren't bound by discrimination laws, and so Paul Graham can choose not to start companies with mothers of young children.

I will defer to your knowledge of YC's corporate legal structure on that point, but I'd note that the rest appears to be left untouched at present.

Wait, are you trying to say something about Paul Graham, or something about Sam Altman? Because one of those wrote that essay, and the other heads YC right now.

You had a point somewhere up around "Peter Thiel is not an employee of Sam Altman [but rather a partner that can be let go of at any time for any reason]" but what happened to the rest of your comment?

Thomas is one of the more intellectually honest guys I've met. I'm hopeful that he's still looking through the evidence presented, corroborating the facts contained therein, and coming to his own conclusions based on evidence. That's a huge info dump and I would be charitable enough to give someone time to process all that because there are quite a few pieces to put together, but it looks pretty damning when you add everything up. You might discount the video guy for having done ACORN videos or something, but it's hard to look at the FEC data and the video of the protest and not see that it presents a rather compelling case.

To be fair, I won't claim that's the last word, either, and I'm interested if there are any breaks in that chain of logic which I've missed. Whatever faults I may have, I'm always open to revising my positions based on new evidence and I am not enthusiastic about either Trump or Hillary. But if you can get people for stuff like that on video and corroborate it, I will want to see federal charges explored for whoever is truly responsible, regardless of party affiliation.

The question is not who scores more imaginary points on John Stuart Mill's or anybody else's "liberality scale". They question is whether we want to have a community in which one has to constantly look over one's shoulder to not run afoul of the thought police, and where virtue signaling and participating in Two Minutes Hate becomes mandatory, or else. Programming and software community turning into this scares me much more than any presidential election could.

> We are not required to tolerate intolerance when intolerance poses a threat to society.

This is too easy. You just declare "this guy poses threat to society" and you don't have to play by the rules anymore.

This.

Around 40% of Americans support Trump. Can you reasonably declare that 40% of society is a danger to itself?

You win over people with empathy and reasoned appeals to shared values, not firing them and refusing to associate at all with them -- that just drives them further away.

> Can you reasonably declare that 40% of society is a danger to itself?

Yes.

Has 40% been on the wrong side of slavery, voting rights, civil rights, women's rights, gay rights?

Has more progress been made through war/assassinations/violence/riots/protest, or empathy/reasoned appeals?

There is a time for empathy, a time to ignore, and a time to fight. It's not a matter of percentage, it's a matter of wrong. Unfortunately, we don't usually have a consensus on what views are wrong until decades later.

>Has more progress been made through war/assassinations/violence/riots/protest, or empathy/reasoned appeals?

You can bully people into a resentful silence temporarily with war, assassinations, violence, riots, (angry) protests. But if you want to build something that lasts and doesn't require an army of policemen to keep it in power, you have to go with the empathy and reasoned appeals.

I didn't say anything about silence or bullying. Some people can't be won over with empathy and reasoned appeals. That's why I listed other options, including ignore. And yes, an army of policemen is required to stay power regardless of ideology. See every society.

North Korea requires a far bigger army of policemen to keep everyone in line than South Korea. Do you want to be North Korea, or South Korea?

    > Has more progress been made through
      war/assassinations/violence/riots/protest, or   
      empathy/reasoned appeals?

That's a difficult question, and I'm not sure what the actual empirical answer is. And that's ignoring the obvious deficiency that we need to define progress -- progress to what?

    > it's a matter of wrong.

Most great evils that have been committed in history have been caused by groups thinking that their perceived moral superiority grants them license to act violently against opposition. Be it a witch-hunt, genocide of Native Americans, etc. there is always an element of moral superiority.

This sort of comment is displaying that same kind of attitude, an attitude which is actually dangerous to society. If your side is encouraging violence, and your opposition knows you are encouraging violence, then it is only rational for them to also consider violence and to adopt a first-strike policy. This leads to actual civil war. War is the opposite of progress -- it's the destruction of capital, families, and individual. That's regressive.

The people who oppose these things are not monsters. They have lives as rich and meaningful as your own. They attend church, they donate to charity, they tuck their children into bed at night. They are __not__ some radical fringe minority, hell-bent on imposing an ideology upon the world.

We are all basically decent people. Our democracy is destroyed when one group believes it has a moral license to incite violence to achieve its ends rather than work in the system. When that happens, we have stopped listening.

When we stop listening, we stop learning.

> If your side is encouraging violence

I haven't picked a side on this thread and I haven't encouraged violence. I pointed out that empathy isn't always the solution. I wonder if your comment also applies to American conflicts in the Middle-East.

I do empathize with Graham/Atman's position and many of the commenters here.

1) We all agree firing an employee over politics is wrong.

2) Graham/Altman say Thiel is basically an employee and ending the part-time partnership is basically firing him. We should take their word.

3) If Trump is as bad as Graham/Altman describe, Thiel actually isn't an employee, and smart/rich guys with great lawyers couldn't figure out how to distance themselves, it will look bad.

But "if" arguments are weak. There is disagreement over how bad Trump is, I think time will tell. In the meantime, from a PR standpoint, I think Y Combinator didn't handle this well. Keeping Thiel on board didn't cause this outrage, Atman's explanation and Graham's Twitter arguments did.

Empathy and fighting weren't my only options, ignore is a choice. I wonder if Atman/Graham had stayed silent for three more weeks until the election is over, would this have blown over. I also wonder how hard they fought to keep Project Include as a partner.

Atheist downfall? Since when? And what do you mean by 'downfall'? Like, they all started professing a belief in the hereafter, or like the scene in the movie 'Downfall'?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12734808

No no, it was a Downfall parody you were referring to! The /r/atheism split, of course!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXXnt3jm6UQ

It's not a moral fashion to believe that jailing political opponents or advocating laws making it illegal for the NYT to criticize him is outside the boundaries of "wrong, but tolerable".

And while I'd agree that employees should be protected as long as they do not intentionally harm their employers, Thiel isn't an employee and his "firing" would have far fewer consequences for him.

> It's not a moral fashion to believe that jailing political opponents or advocating laws making it illegal for the NYT to criticize him is outside the boundaries of "wrong, but tolerable".

Right, I would call those moral truths rather than moral fashions.

The issue is that Trump's behavior hasn't been as clear cut as you're pretending it is (for example rather than actually jailing political opponents, he called for a special prosecutor and a jury trial). My fashion police comment was about the behavior in this thread relative to Trump's actual actions. For a hypothetical uber-Trump I'd be on the other side of this discussion.

>I don't know if you followed what happened to the Atheist community in the US, but its downfall was essentially the kind of witch hunt you're trying to incite.

Did we have a community? Was there a downfall? I'm an atheist and I know more people that are comfortable being openly atheist in 2016 than at any other time in my life.

I feel like this probably has something to do with Dawkins or Hitchens or something.

The history of witch hunts in the USA are reactionary and conservative (Salem, McCarthyism) but for some reason these days the left have been branded as the witch hunters.

Historically, I agree. However, there are witch-hunters to be found at the extremes of both sides.

For example, there's nothing wrong with the concept of social justice, but there are people/groups acting in the name of social justice that spend all day every day trying to find someone's life/career to ruin over the slightest perceived transgression.

As near as I can tell, this is referring to a minor scandal in what I usually think of as the skeptic community.

Long story short, Dawkins made some comments regarded as regressive which got him dis-invited from a couple of skeptical conferences.

It is a slightly different argument than the one we're having now, although it wouldn't surprise me if the sides people take are similar: given that in any large gathering of people (eg, a skeptical conference, an online forum, a corporation, a political party...) there will be some people whose behavior, actions, or speech is hostile, harming, or threatening to some other people, should we force some people to restrict their behavior or leave, or force other people to either accept it or leave?

Unsurprisingly, a majority of the skeptical community opted towards restriction, many skeptical conventions reiterated their policies with the goal of making convention-goers feel safe and welcome, and some individuals who prominently made statements against these changes were dis-invited (as speakers) from some conventions.

SJWs, in other words.

I saw (later) how the atheist community broke apart due to activists trying to insist it become justice activist or feel shameful or part of the problem; it rips apart enthusiasts when they feel they have to become involved in someone's actions like if not doing something means you're helping cause the problem.

Expecting Y Combinator or its community to fight Trump or sever ties with anyone who supports him is not only discrimination but unnecessary, divisive, and corrosive.

All this moral grandstanding like we have to right the world the way someone wants immediately will just drench everyone in someone's mud.

>What is a principle of liberal philosophy, though, is that we should be tolerant of the beliefs of others (in the sense of not intervening to suppress them), including intolerant beliefs, until those intolerant beliefs threaten society.

So, to paraphrase, you have moral principles only as long as it's safe to do so and then are willing to stoop as low as you need to when it's not.

Well, let me tell you, sir, that that is no part of any liberal philosophy that I subscribe to, nor is it part of the philosophy of anyone I respect.

I think you think this was a snappy response, but I'm simply paraphrasing John Rawls. If you prefer Karl Popper, you might look up "the paradox of intolerance". You could also take it back to John Stuart Mill, if you'd like.

So? Then they are wrong as well then, at least in that particular, their eminence notwithstanding. Appealing to authority makes your position no more tenable.

Principles that are abandoned when under duress are no principles at all.

I'm seeing variants of this thrown around a lot here, but I don't see people engaging with tptacek's point, at least to my reading of it.

Let me turn this around. When corporations choose to get actively political, like Chick-Fil-A's support of anti-gay groups and Ben & Jerry's support of Black Lives Matter, should we not take that into account when we decide whether to do business with them? I don't think you'd make that argument, because really, it's not a very sound one. It's not a very sound one to say that we are compromising our principles if we share our stance on those corporations with others and try to get them to come around to our point of view, either, is it?

So why does it suddenly become sound in this case?

"try to get them to come around to our point of view" sounds genteel but rather understates the ferocity of the persuasion, don't you think?

In any case, the Wikipedia article on shunning sums it up nicely:

Some aspects of shunning may also be seen as being at odds with civil rights or human rights, especially those behaviours that coerce and attack. When a group seeks to have an effect through such practices outside its own membership, for instance when a group seeks to cause financial harm through isolation and disassociation, they can come at odds with their surrounding civil society, if such a society enshrines rights such as freedom of association, conscience, or belief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning#Civil_rights_implicat...

Personal relationships, including business relationships, are governed by different principles than what brand of ice cream you buy.

OK, Mill, On Liberty, chapter 2:

> But I deny the right of the people to exercise such coercion, either by themselves or by their government. The power itself is illegitimate. The best government has no more title to it than the worst. It is as noxious, or more noxious, when exerted in accordance with public opinion, than when in or opposition to it. If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.

> [some pages later:] For a long time past, the chief mischief of the legal penalties is that they strengthen the social stigma. It is that stigma which is really effective, and so effective is it that the profession of opinions which are under the ban of society is much less common in England, than is, in many other countries, the avowal of those which incur risk of judicial punishment.

My understanding of Mill is quite against this claim, and especially your claim upthread 'There is no work of political philosophy anywhere that suggests we should be able to say whatever we'd like "without fear of repercussions".' He was arguing directly this idea that it's enough for free speech that the state not suppress it.

There's no philosopher you can't enlist in the support of any view if you quote them out of context (also: you could have done far better in finding a quote to deploy here; try searching On Liberty for the word "opinion").

The part you haven't come to yet is the Harm Principle.

> The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.

Okay. So if we're preventing harm, then, what is the possible harm here? Do you think intolerant beliefs threaten society? I'm of the opinion that beliefs mean nothing until acted upon, that only intolerant actions threaten society.

Or to rephrase it as one of the core tenets of Silicon Valley, "Having a great idea is not enough. It is the manner in which ideas are executed that counts."[1]

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2318849, linking to https://archive.is/U6C4l#selection-2043.104-2043.196

I don't like the insinuation that I didn't read the book I quoted. I did, and I went to the trouble of finding quotes because memory is fallible (especially in the direction one would like it to err). Using that rhetorically against me is bad for the quality of discourse here.

Yes, Mill's general principles for liberty exclude the right to harm others. But he's very very skeptical of considering speech a harm. He's not a counterexample to the literal sense of what you wrote upthread about "saying whatever we'd like without fearing repercussions": e.g. you should be legally liable for libel, and socially liable to individual opprobrium. But he was clearly against the kind of repercussions for the kind of speech we're talking about here.

> Nobody denies Sam Altman's right to support Peter Thiel

Of course; what upsets people (you included, probably?) is the hypocrisy and rationalization. For his friend, Altman is willing to throw all principles and grand declarations about "no asshole policy" through the window. In a way it's charming; in another way, it's hard to fathom.

If anyone on HN said 1 thousandth of what Trump says everyday, they would get banned. But giving $1M to his campaign so that he can continue saying those same things, that's totally fine.

According to Sam Altman, if Peter Thiel said some of what Trump said, they'd stop endorsing him. I could not be more baffled by this stance: someone who speaks like Donald Trump is too toxic to affiliate with YC, but someone who diligently works to make Donald Trump President of the United States is not.

This is the end consequence of tremendous cowardice from a lot of people over a long time, starting with the owners and administrators of Hacker News.

HN has – through inaction – smirkingly enabled alt-right/NRx/GamerGaters to parody-thru-libel liberal positions on equality for a long time; supporting Peter Thiel is in the same vein. That's made Hacker News racist, sexist, and (worst of all for this crowd's self-image), stupid.

For a bunch of "disruptors", they're blind to the systemic effects of that set of decisions to the point of parody. Well, the only conclusion to be drawn: the Y Combinator partners (and the companies they fund) don't care sufficiently about society to be people I want to work with. Makes my decisions easier!

I am as troubled as you are about the uptick in overt racism and sexism on HN. But I know and trust the moderators of the site, and this is a conversation I have had with them too, and I don't have any better ideas on how to deal with it than they do.

The bigger problem is that the (very large) community of reasonable nerds who care about bigotry has largely abandoned Hacker News. In doing so, they've conceded it to the racist fringe. They, too, should reconsider.

It's at least comforting to know that blatant racism and sexism tends to get flagged off of threads.

"The bigger problem is that the (very large) community of reasonable nerds who care about bigotry has largely abandoned Hacker News. In doing so, they've conceded it to the racist fringe. They, too, should reconsider."

Should they though? When the community tells them with every post that this isn't wanted here, that the community doesn't care, and that the contributions are not welcome, should they really spend (or waste) their time, effort, and keystrokes here? And if so why? This isn't rhetorical, but really something I think about often when I'm waiting for an app to deploy and choosing what to do with those free minutes. And more and more, the answer is a resounding NO.

I don't. By their actions shall I judge them, and their actions are complicit in making Silicon Valley an awful place to be for a number of my friends.

Asking anyone to "reconsider" their way into a hostile environment is pretty brutal. For that to be realistic, YC has to make the first move, and it'd likely have to be an extremely costly signal. What would you suggest?

Totally agree with 'genericpseudo and 'joesmo. YC's created the environment that's so tolerant of racism and sexism. If they don't want people who care about bigotry to abandon the site, it's up to them to change the dynamic.

I've noticed this too. Not only on HN, but below the line on many publications - The Economist, Politico, even at The Guardian, long a liberal bastion.

I don't think the reason is that 'reasonable' people have jumped ship though. At least that's not the sole reason. It seems recent events have turned some of those reasonable people reactionary. They've watched an increase of censorship and dishonesty under the guise of progressivism and decided that sunlight is the best disinfectant (just take a look at the shrieks of conspiracy whenever a frontpage post is flagged).

In doing so they have paved the way for an increase in bigotry from those who now believe that the lid has blown off once-taboo topics.

Perhaps I'm wrong but sorting comments by 'popular' on any of the sites mentioned above suggests that this isn't a phenomenon unique to HN. It's a shift in our online discourse.

Some of the trouble here is the tendency of divisive people to see any attempt at understanding an issue to be support of that issue. That's part of what encourages trumps.

Another is the funny sort of ways that liberals want to fix -isms by applying the -isms in attack and unironically saying it's okay because they have the right opinions. That's part of what encourages trumps.

It's a basic fact of human nature that the self-righteousness you feel about your own opinions is not unique to those who agree with you, and there is no objective way to prove it is superior. That's part of what encourages trumps.

And it sure doesn't help when all the rhetoric gets the added emotional manipulation of associations to hitler.

This is the thing i don't understand, and you say it a lot. Why should we reconsider? We are clearly not welcome here. I read and comment every once in awhile, certainly, because i have a certain attachment to horrifying trainwrecks -- but i don't delude myself that i'm doing anyone any good, including myself.

Let's say arguendo that Donald Trump is an objectively harmful candidate to democratic society. Peter Thiel may have given far more money than what most people even possess, but it's categorically the same as those who are voters for Trump -- both parties are providing some very direct support for Trump, and Thiel is arguably one step more distal than the voter.

I think that at some point, you must stop punitive consequences from leaking out of a category of democratic behaviors, or else entire categories of democratic behavior may be discouraged. After all, ought not the voter also be punished in the same manner we wish upon Peter Thiel? Shouldn't that voter suffer business and personal consequence?

If a grandma appears before a massive audience because she has a compelling story to tell in support of Trump, and in doing so, she becomes coined as "Grandma Lee" and becomes a hot media narrative worth more than what Peter Thiel gave, should that grandma also be punished accordingly? Disconnected from business colleagues? Shamed by any institution she's party to?

There should be a deliberately designed limit to causal responsibility when one is legitimately participating in democracy. If "legitimate" behavior is still bad for democracy, then that's where society should target their efforts, rather than through the shadowy powers of cultural punishment.

It's sort of like asking "what is a celebrity"? There's a line somewhere, and the existence of paparazzi doesn't impact the privacy rights of ordinary people.

The political line is somewhere over the level of voting, and could be somewhere below the level of donating millions and giving speeches to millions.

There's no reason the line inherently has to be drawn at the limit of "legitimate" behavior. We can say that something is legitimate to do, and legitimate to affect who will do business with you.

There is a deliberately defined limit: The rule of law. Innocent until proven guilty. People are being asked by the Left to convict Trump of things he hasn't even done yet; after all, he is an "existential threat to democracy." The fact that HRC, Obama, and Bush actually did things that are criminal by any reasonable interpretation of the law--well, that we are asked to ignore.

This isn't about rational thought and calm, fact-based discourse. This is nothing more than monkey behavior and pure red-vs-blue emotionalism.

Supporting someone as president does not imply holding all the views that that person holds. And associating with someone who holds views you find detestable is not the same thing as associating with someone who supports a political candidate who holds views that you find detestable. I can't see how there is anything baffling about this.

> But we are all very much entitled to criticize what Altman is doing, and we would be doing Altman no favors by withholding that criticism.

Perhaps, but it's a slippery slope to a loosely-defined moral litmus test that is in the eye of the beholder, a fashionable "in group" set of beliefs which are not actually subject to rational scrutiny but are instead tenets of a creed of allegiance. They are hyperbolic and intended mainly as a signal to others, like a patch stitched onto a sleeve or a badge worn on one's clothing, which side the person is on.

For example, consider this creed of statements largely unsupported by fact (caveat: I do not support either candidate and actively oppose both):

I consider Donald Trump a threat to American democracy and prosperity. I believe the 40% of the American people supporting his candidacy are deeply disturbed, damaged human beings who are animated by Trump's racism and hatred.

I am certain that Donald Trump has sexually assaulted many women, and his criminal sexual acts are on par with the worst sexual predators of history. I am certain that Donald Trump's campaign is in collusion with the Russian government simply to get Donald in office so that he can do business in Russia and extract personal profit for himself (unlike HRC who is motivated by altruism and service, not personal ambition or greed).

I believe that in spite of being nominated by major American political parties, Donald Trump and HRC are vastly different human beings with vastly different ambitions and quality of judgment.

I believe it is our duty to our daughters and future generations to do everything possible to stop Donald Trump from gaining power, including socially castigating and penalizing his supporters in any way possible, including "unfriending" on social media. I believe that focusing on the outrageous allegations of Trump's kissing and groping behavior are far more important than comparing the two candidates stances on issues and comparing the practicalities of their stated policy aims.

I am certain that Donald Trump intends to challenge the election results if he loses, and that he's planning to incite violence in an attempt to gain office.

These statements pull the dialogue away from facts, logic, debate, falsifiability, etc., and make it about raw power, which is coercive and not rational or meritocratic.

It may not be, but looking back many people view the blacklisting of American communists as antithetical to democracy even though their philosophy would have it to overturn our system and forge into a communist one.

Blacklisting people because we think they are a threat to our society is what enabled employers of the past to make it hard for people of an opposing view to get jobs because their politics were "anti-American", even though strictly speaking they could be the antithesis of our political and economic system even now.

I do think things have shifted more than a bit with unbridled campaign donations as "speech". This isn't someone handing out fliers or manning a call bank—if you're helping someone deeply opposed to your politics make money, and they're spending giant piles of that money to aid candidates you don't like, severing business relationships and trying to harm their ability to make money any way you can seems like fair game to me.

Don't like it? Favor measures to strictly limit money's effect on campaigns.

What if workers' unions were to fire members who don't support candidate X, or fire those who do support candidate Y, after all portion of their salaries could be used to underwrite the uncandidate... Is this kind of political retribution what we're aiming for?

Quantity has its own quality. Bob the riveter donating $500 is far removed from 7-figure donations. It's an entirely different kind of relationship with the candidate and the campaign.

I think this is too arbitrary. It's making a distinction for the sake of argument. Either people can support a candidate freely or we can't and we go the way of official approved politics.

If you want to remove money from politics, go ahead, do try. But don't make arbitrary cases for when its apt and then, when it's convenient, make it not apt.

This is the oligarch-gods of politics warring. Frankly, as long as they stick to hurting one another and leave the little people alone, I consider smacking one another around their role. They want to throw their incredible amounts of money and influence around for an outsize effect on elections, they should be ready for that money and influence to be threatened as fair game in the political battle. They can always not do that and participate like a mere mortal.

This is hardly arbitrary. People choosing to participate in this arena are not on the same playing field as the rest of us. I don't feel that applying identical rules to them as the "little guys" is somehow more fair than applying what is appropriate. Again: no one makes them use their power this way. Challenging the basis of that power is 100% OK in my book if that's how they want to use it. They dragged their professional reputations and fortunes into the mud. Complaining that it got dirty is silly.

I think this comment should be higher. Industries have done exactly what Marco wants[1] and it was not a good look for America.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_blacklist

Based on reading your comments for several years, I presume you are very much in favor of protecting employees from various kinds of discrimination(as you should!). Advocating firing Thiel seems to be counter to that.

- If YC severed ties w/ Thiel, as people are recommending, should YC also divest itself of companies with founders who support Trump?

- Should YC-invested companies fire employees who support Trump?

- Imagine the shitstorm if a right-leaning YC founder fired an employee for working in the HRC or Stein campaign. The no-discrimination at any cost crowd is going to howl with rage the first time "their" person gets fired by "the other" camp, solely for political affiliation.

- Ok, we could pass some employment law: "firing employees over political beliefs is not OK, unless it's an existential threat". Who gets to decide what is an existential threat?

This is a very dangerous weapon, and your eagerness to use it now makes me think you haven't considered what will happen when it's used against your political tribe.

"Based on reading your comments for several years, I presume you are very much in favor of protecting employees from various kinds of discrimination(as you should!)."

I think it's pretty relevant that Thiel isn't an employee of YC. Saying that they would "fire" Thiel is a complete misnomer - he's a partner that does business with them. I think that's a very different kind of relationship.

He doesn't even "do business" with them! As Altman himself said: Thiel doesn't get YC equity. It's a marketing relationship. If it were an employment relationship, I would probably feel differently.

I'm aware of that legally the distinction is relevant, but in the realm of public discourse, it isn't. YC could also e.g. cut ties with Thiel because he's gay, but of course HN would crucify them.

Sorry, I still disagree. As an alternate example, if I heard that a business partner had decided to stop doing business with another business partner because of disagreeing with their politics, that would play very differently in the press than a boss deciding to fire an employee for same.

"Sam Altman cannot coherently believe this while supporting Peter Thiel [,...]"

Why not?

This is the only part of your comment I have a problem with. People can coherently have two values that they care about, and have to weigh one against the other.

It is totally legitimate to think that Trump is a threat to democracy, to completely oppose Thiel, but to also think that firing someone for their political beliefs is a bad precedent that you don't want to engage in.

It's even totally legitimate to be more OK with what Thiel is doing because the chances of Trump winning are relatively low. It's possible (even likely, IMO) that if Trump were much closer to winning the election, Sam Altman and Paul Graham would do more to prevent it.

The problem with this logic is that you're multiplying a very low probability against a truly catastrophic outcome. The expected value result of that calculation is still very, very bad.

But I also disagree about Trump's prospects. As I wrote elsewhere on the thread: I think we underestimate the likelihood that Trump will win, and further I think we're going to be in exactly the same struggle in just 3 more years, when Trump begins his next presidential campaign in earnest. When he captures the nomination next time, there will be no opposition research left with the power to halt his campaign: all the news value will have been spent on this campaign.

Donald Trump is a terrifying force in American politics, and the damage he's done will spread far beyond the 2016 election.

I'm out on a limb here for saying this, because I'm a loyal Democrat, but as a believer in the American political tradition warts-and-all, I think Republicans should be even more dismayed, because one way or the other Trump is going to ruin the Republican party. When most Democrats say this, they mean that Trump will prevent Republicans from winning. But I don't mean that. I mean that Trump is killing their party, and he and his acolytes will finish that job by (eventually) winning. Even as a liberal Democrat, I feel sorrow for the loss of a loyal opposition and a voice for limited government.

> Even as a liberal Democrat, I feel sorrow for the loss of a loyal opposition and a voice for limited government.

I always got the impression from my liberal friends that they would be overjoyed controlling the house, senate, and oval office until the end of time with no opposition.

Perhaps you need more thoughtful friends. Some of us on the left simply want an end to either of the two parties and their focus on controlling the branches of government. Unchecked power is rarely (never?) good. You also left out the judiciary. Both parties want total majority control of the entire government, and they're both comfortable with abrogating their constitutional duties and any sense of statesmanship if it seems likely to help further their power goals. This won't be good for many reasons, not least of which is the vital importance of including as many voices as possible in the processes of self-governance. We can't maintain stability and improve the future when we're always "winning" by a couple percentage points every few years, while remaining otherwise evenly divided into two hating-the-other-side camps.

I tend to agree, but it certainly seems like Sam Altman and Paul Graham don't. I'm reasonably confident that they would do more if they thought Trump being elected was more likely.

Also, you paint a terrifying picture of what happens next - as you (IMO correctly) point out, Trump will not just disappear, but will probably be setting up the next election. Which isn't even the worst case - the worst case is a serious and ongoing Trump challenge to Clinton's election.

The expected value rhetoric about Trump is something I think I shoplifted from Paul Graham, so I'm pretty comfortable with it.

Oppression of expression of opinion is more harmful to American society than Trump is.

Firing someone for supporting Trump is oppression of expression of opinion.

This is a great example of how "progressives" are often just as bigoted as the "bigoted" conservatives they oppose.

> Sam Altman cannot coherently believe this while supporting Peter Thiel, who is not just a Trump supporter, but an important part of the Trump campaign.

I've yet to see this claim substantiated. Why can't one coherently believe Trump is an existential threat to society while allowing one of his biggest supporters to give advice to startups? What on earth does one have to do with the other?

People keep talking about moral "incoherence" and "spinelessness," in response to which I have two concrete questions:

(1) How does it "support" Thiel to allow him to advise startups who are allowed to choose whether they want to work with him? How would it improve the situation to rob YC startups of his advice?

(2) Sam already wrote that he thinks Thiel is "completely wrong" in his support of Trump. What else must he do?

I can't wrap my head around the idea that it's evil to do business with someone committing an unrelated evil to the business being done. It'd be one thing if Thiel were using YC as a megaphone for his political efforts, but YC already said he wasn't.

>You may not believe Trump is a real thread to society. [...] Trump is an existential threat to our democracy.

If you don't have the rule of law, then you don't have a democracy. Of the two major party candidates, one is a hyperbolic, thin skinned twat who can't control his own mouth. The other is a venal, entitled, secretive, law-breaking, compulsively lying enabler of sexual predators, who will allow people to die, be raped, and have their lives destroyed, if doing her actual job and acting with honor would even possibly threaten her personal financial or political ambitions.

I'll take the twattish buffoon.

> Even most leaders of the Republican party refused to get on stage at the RNC to support Trump. Thiel did.

The reason for that is very simple. They don't have "fuck you" money or "fuck you" careers. They need to be careful of what they say and what they do. Peter Thiel doesn't and to a lesser extent neither does Sam or Paul. They probably will still have an oversupply of highly qualified people acting in their own self interest who want to take advantage of YC and all it offers. Ditto for investors and so on. A much different situation than a politician.

> But we are all very much entitled to criticize what Altman is doing, and we would be doing Altman no favors by withholding that criticism.

In all honesty Sama goes up many notches in my (non-important to anyone but me) ranking system for what he is doing. Even given my previous thoughts on the actual impact to him business wise or personally (I am sure anyone who needs him will still seek him out and forget about all of this.)

Whether or not it's a "fundamental principle of democracy" , the hyperbole and moral policing sets an extremely dangerous precedent. Yes, trump would be a terrible president but he's not Hitler (I know you didn't compare him to Hitler but it was a very common comparison in the media for a while).

The number of instances of the word "believe" is where your argument (and Marcos') fails.

I'm not a justice expert, but unless Trump is judged and condemned, he is innocent and none of his actions are to be considered criminal, correct? That being the case, supporting him shouldn't be punished as well.

I'm thinking that maybe the People should prosecute Trump over hate crimes and such (there are grounds for that, right? Inciting crime is a crime in itself). Once he's a felon, then we may discuss if supporting him over a certain extent is to be considered criminal...

Again, I know I'm not creating the most solid argument here, since my legal expertise is limited, but judging people from supporting a free person seems misguided to me, rebellious as Trump is.

No one is talking about legal punishments for Trump (even though he threatened to jail Hillary if he won). We're talking about Y Combinator doing business with someone who is substantially and actively supporting a racist.

> Both Altman and Graham believe, like I do, that Trump is an existential threat to our democracy.

I still can't think why a sane person would believe that. I mean not rhetorically claim it in a bout of electoral frenzy, but really genuinely believe it. Not that Trump has a disgusting personality or would be bad president or has this and that flaw, but that he will actually single-handedly ruin the democracy.

I mean, George III couldn't do it, Jefferson Davis couldn't do it, Nixon couldn't do it, but Trump will. Why? Which superpowers does he have that I am not seeing that allow him to singlehandedly overcome everything that is built to prevent it?

And more importantly - why literally nobody who proclaims Trump as such a threat pays any attention whatsoever to the fact that our democracy is so weak one blowhard TV show host can ruin it? That - if true - would be a hugely bigger problem than Trump yet nobody seems to be worried about that. As soon as Trump would be defeated, everybody that were screaming "the end is nigh!" would go on with their business as if nothing is wrong anymore.

> Peter Thiel, who is not just a Trump supporter, but an important part of the Trump campaign.

That doesn't seem to be true. Trump campaign has many directions but having Thiel does not seem to be an important point for any of them. And one million dollar, while a big chunk of money by itself, is minuscule compared to whole electoral spending - e.g., Clinton campaign was estimated to spend about 1.7 billions, and while Trump one seemed to be spending a little less, I assume the order of magnitude would be the same.

> after Trump pivoted his campaign as a crusade against the legitimacy of our elections and of the black vote,

I never heard Trump doing such thing. Are you sure you are not misinterpreting his words or relying on unreliable and possibly biased sources?

> But we are all very much entitled to criticize what Altman is doing,

Criticizing Altman in general is fine, of course. This particular kind of criticism, namely "you must sever ties with X because X supported cause I dislike", does not seem to be a good idea. Neither seems to be "you must sever ties with X because he supports Trump and you don't". Maybe Altman is entitled to choose his peer group by himself and other people presuming to choose his peers and partners for him are going a bit too far?

There are many historical examples of countries with legitimate governments that were taken over by a demagogue or tyrant. You can't imagine a sane person could fear the same outcome in the United States?

Democracy has to be re-earned in each generation. If you just depend on past victories, you can absolutely lose it.

> There are many historical examples of countries with legitimate governments that were taken over by a demagogue or tyrant

Not that many, actually (then again, there's not that many true democracies until recently) but in each case the problem was much deeper than the person of the specific demagogue and tyrant. And usually the particularly heinous demagogue and tyrant was precedent by a row of less heinous demagogues and tyrants. So what's so special in this one?

> You can't imagine a sane person could fear the same outcome in the United States?

Fear - sure. But fearing something and claiming something is going to happen is a different thing. I can fear being mugged and still not claim everybody I meet is a mugger. I can fear snakes but not see snakes behind every corner. Fear is healthy, but not when it gets out of control.

> Democracy has to be re-earned in each generation.

True, but also not very useful. What is specific in Trump that didn't ever happen that makes him more threat than King George, Jefferson Davis and many other lousy and controversial presidents US had over the years? Which specific faults will enable him to overthrow the Republic and why no one is working on fixing those flaws right now?

> Democracy has to be re-earned in each generation.

Democracy has existed for 100 years in most Western states!

In fact the majority of economic and social progress in Western states did not occur in democracies, but under constitutional monarchies with parliaments and an aristocracy.

>Nobody denies Sam Altman's right to support Peter Thiel, or, for that matter, Thiel's right to support Trump

But if Trump threatens society, and you've deemed beliefs tolerable unless they threaten society...aren't you granting yourself permission to dole out "repercussions" for these beliefs?

Exactly. There is no First Amendment protection against _social consequences_ for abhorrent speech. Companies that choose to protect people who threaten the values of democracy are _choosing to do so because they want to_, not because of some higher calling or noble purpose.

By that reasoning, McCarthyism was profoundly liberal: Communism was a direct, unequivocal threat to society, so hounding it out was perfectly justified. (Or even if it wasn't, lots of people strongly believed it was, with justification!)

To me, that's a pretty scary conclusion which puts some real doubt on the initial premise.

>Trump is an existential threat to our democracy

If one person, even a President can be an existential threat to your democracy then your democracy is already in a very bad shape.

Exactly; a good system by definition should be robust to these kinds of things.

Both of them compare Trump to a dictator. Paul Graham compared him to Stalin. Both Altman and Graham believe, like I do, that Trump is an existential threat to our democracy.

If they truly believe Trump is "Literally Hitler" (as has been said about every Republican candidate since it could be said (Dewey), modulo I assume Eisenhower since it would be so ludicrous, and of course Stalin was far worse), then their behavior is indeed hard to explain.

Which suggests to me that they don't actually believe he's "an existential threat to our democracy" (cue Adam Smith's "There's a great deal of ruin in a nation" upon news of the defeat at Saratoga).

Or they're trimming their sails so they can still play a role in the possible coming Neo-Fourth Reich, i.e. they're cowards, doubly so since they're wealthy enough to relocate to some other 1st World country like Switzerland (last time I checked, which was long ago, some French cantons would allow you to sign a private tax treaty for 50,000 Swiss francs a year).

Although I suppose a counter to that accusation is that they're not about to abandon "their people" to the tender mercies of Stalin Mark II.

My advice, as a designated deplorable "irredeemable", if you're truly worried about this? Buy yourself a fricking rifle of military utility (a turn of the previous century clip fed bolt action rifle and modest supply of ammo is cheap, a few hundred bucks, and allowed pretty much everywhere except NYC) and learn how to shoot it well, don't bow your head as you're herded to the camps, follow this bit from Alexander Solzhenitsyn in The GULAG Archipelago (remember, we are, per Graham, talking "Literally Stalin", who was at the top when this happened):

And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?

Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?

After all, you knew ahead of time that those bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you’d be cracking the skull of a cutthroat. Or what about the Black Maria [Government limo] sitting out there on the street with one lonely chauffeur — what if it had been driven off or its tires spiked.

The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

"They", whichever you think is the they, can't take on a mass of people without using artillery or worse (see "Hama Rules"), and if things get that bad, well, you're already at war, you might as well be useful to your side.

Any pushback from these people that starts with the fabrication that Trump voters are the working poor is basically not worth engaging with. They live in the same world as everyone else where it's reasonable to critique people who have deeply harmful or prejudiced views and it shows when that pushback is based on the assumption that classism is essential to the case against Trump, even when all the polling shows us that's a complete lie.

> no work of political philosophy anywhere that suggests we should be able to say whatever we'd like "without fear of repercussions"

First sentence of Wikipedia article:

Freedom of speech is the right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship, or societal sanction. [1]

You're advocating societal sanction against Peter Thiel for his political opinions.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech

That Trump's and by extension Theil's actions have a very real set of consequences has NOTHING to do with democracy. The government is not taking action against them, we the people are. The very idea of democracy is that it's the expressed will of the people, filtered through mechanics to make it possible to administrate. In this case the will of a great number of people, including Marco according to the post, is remove support from people who choose to say these damaging things. It's not an incomplete understanding, it's that in their value system, the things being said can have no possible balance and anyone supporting them represents a clear danger to what they feel makes a democratic country great. That you would suggest a lack of understanding and try and use that to defend the very people moving to limit and harm democracy in the USA is condescending and harmful in my opinion. Of course everyone is feel to support who they wish but no one is free from dealing with the fall out from standing with the hateful and bigoted.

And just by that you became what you claim to be against. I am not for Trump or for Hillary, i am for the right to have a discussion about bigger issues without being painted as a supporter of biggotry which only serves to detract from the issues this country has. But i guess that makes me the naive part here.

Nothing anywhere gave you the right to have a "discussion about bigger issues" without "being painted" as anything. You will find no legal foundation for that entitlement in the US Constitution, nor will you find a philosophical foundation for it anywhere in the theory of liberal democracy.

You have a right to express your views, and I have a right to criticize them. Both rights are inalienable.

As long as you dont confuse my views of marcos post with my political views I have no problem with that.

I think OP's desire is to be able to have a debate about the topics without being met with Ad Hominem responses.

Are the things Trump says and allegedly did reprehensible? Of course. But to bring them up in a conversation about the status quo in DC is still ad hominem, and to think that being right about his being a pig wins any debate about a possible evil power structure headed by Clinton is a straw man.

Donald Trump scares me. So does the cavalier attitude of so many who seem to have tunnel vision when it comes to politics vs the two minute hatee du jour.

No, that is not what "ad hominem" means.

A pretty good resource on this can be found by Googling "ad hominem fallacy fallacy".

You're going to have to be more specific about how you interpreted my definition of ad hominem, and your sources that counter that idea. That search turned up some interesting ideas, but I have no idea which ones you espouse, and we'll never get anywhere on this unequal footing.

I think you're going to have to be more specific about which of my arguments have something to do with 'ThomPete's deficiencies as a person or his personal unsuitability to be making statements about Trump or Thiel or Altman. That's an uphill climb, because I don't know anything about 'ThomPete, so I doubt I've made any such arguments.

Ah, I think this is where the confusion lies, I never meant to accuse you of ad hominem against ThomPete. Sorry if I caused confusion there.

> And no I don't want to defend Trump or Theil but rather the fundamental principle that no matter what in a democracy everyone have the right to say and mean what they want without having to fear the repercussions

I interpreted "repercussions" to mean ad hominem. Peter Theil has his reasons for supporting Trump. But I see the conversation shifting to his transitive guilt of bigotry/misogyny, as opposed to the political motivations for that support. I think this is ad hominem, as it's a focus on the moral scandal and not the political issues.

I'm a little lost. How is the bigotry and misogyny of someone with a very real chance to be elected President of the United States and Command in Chief of the world's largest military force not a political issue?

It is a political issue but so is sending drones out to kill people without trial.

There are collateral damage to all political decisions you are just more accepting some rather than those the Trump supporters accept.

That doesn't mean they can't have a higher political goal than purely bigotry. In fact I believe both Altman and Thiel shows that you can in fact disagree without shaming.

What's your point? I agree with you about drones. You know who doesn't? Donald Trump. Donald Trump doesn't merely support using drones against terrorists. He thinks we should firebomb Raqqa. He thinks that the families of terrorists should be captured and tortured in order to dissuade terrorists. He is in favor of --- he said this publicly --- limited regional tactical nuclear war. He is a staunch advocate of torture, not just to obtain information (itself an odious plan) but as retributive justice to those who oppose him.

Peter Thiel supports this man. He donates millions to his campaign. He's a surrogate for the campaign. He stood on stage and endorsed the campaign even as dozens of senior Republicans refused. He donated just last week, so much that he made the front page of CNN, after Trump pivoted to attacking the election itself.

If drones are a major concern of yours, good on you! You, too, should be working as diligently as possible to prevent Donald Trump from killing millions of people in new military strikes.

Trumps is for isolation not globalization.

His rhetorics are not his politicis just like Hillarys rhetorics are not her politics. We will not get rid of Drones by voting on anyone of them.

Which brings me to my point. You are just accepting another kind of problematic foreign policy over another. They are both bad.

And again. I am not voting for any of them. I do not support any of them.

Your claims about Trumps killing millions of people is so absurd. But to use your own argument.

If you really believe Trump will kill millions I have no problem with your defending Hillary only killing hundreds of thousands.

Trump is for firebombing Raqqa. Trump is for capturing and torturing the families of terrorists. I don't have to extrapolate his platform from the definition of "isolationist". He has made his plans clear.

Obama and Hillary have already bombed plenty of places with plenty of innocent people.

If you are against that you are yourself doing what you accuse Altman for.

> I never meant to accuse you of ad hominem against ThomPete. Sorry if I caused confusion there.

Your diplomacy is admirable, but I think there is a deeper issue here. I found your original text to be clear.

Thom's first post explicitly states that if you disagree with him, you are less well informed than him; and that you are an autocrat who does not accept dissent.

Thom's selfish and privileged expectation is that he can open with that attack, and that we'll all be polite and civil to him; even though he started the conversation by directly claiming that only dumb autocrats disagree with him. That's not how the world works though. Thom chose to be awful to a huge group of people; and he chose not to retract his shitty, awful words. he should expect people to treat him poorly.

Further, he's a white man who decided to tell a diverse group of people (who has never met) that we don't understand sexism or racism as well as he does. This was insane. The level of arrogance required to do this is... almost unmeasurable.

So a few things:

1) he shouldn't expect us to be polite. He was rude as FUCK in his opening, and he was also incredibly arrogant with his assertions about his understanding of american sexism and racism.

2) 'ad hominem' is not what you think it is. Don't use words you don't understand.

3) It's borderline insane for you to spend your life defending OP. ThomPete made REALLY bad decisions, and you have better things to do with your life than to defend a white male asshole who isn't actually being hurt at all.

4) The amount of "oh the poor rich white men who are suffering..." bullshit is off the charts. PG and Sama are suffering no harm at all, beyond a few words on Twitter. Their lives are completely intact. They're FUCKING FINE.

5) The people who will suffer in a DJT world are all powerless. They are people whose lives will not be completely intact. They are people who will be ruined. But you don't give a fuck aobut that because you're too busy vilifying people for being mean to an awful cunt like ThomPete.

That's a fallacy, taking a stand against bigotry in no way makes you a bigot. There is a huge difference in refusing to support a person or a business on moral grounds than trying to copt the government of a nation to enforce bigoted believes. Trump is clearly advocating just that, using the the government to enforce anti-muslim restrictions.

There's a difference between standing against a bigot, and ostracizing anyone who may support him for their own reasons.

I believe you've misused the word fallacy. Taking a stand against bigotry absolutely can make you a bigot. Different kinds of bigots engage in mutual opposition on a regular basis.

>And just by that you became what you claim to be against.

Are you claiming that pointing out bigotry is in it's self an act of bigotry? Im asking because that is how I read that, and I don't want to accidentally create straw-man argument because of a misunderstanding.

Having said that here is my potential straw-man.... Wouldn't it follow that pointing that out is also an act of bigotry? Where is the cutoff point?

> For all the crazy things Trump says, for all is egoism he has some very important points which needs to be addressed and discussed and he represents a group of people who haven't been represented for the last 40 years.

Is there a line that Trump could cross where you would start to say he's dangerous and doesn't deserve his spot at the table?

> doesn't deserve his spot at the table?

No one gets to decide who gets a spot at the table. It doesn't really matter if you think Trump is "dangerous", the idea that if you think the "right" way you're entitled to shape the dialogue by censorship if needed is exactly what people who are anti-anti-Trump are trying to fight.

> No one gets to decide who gets a spot at the table.

Gary Johnson and Jill Stein (and many others) would like to have a word with you.

Gary Johnson and Jill Stein should have a seat at the table, too.

I see you wrote words here but they're not really saying anything.. what is your point then? What really is at stake here? If racism and sexism aren't* just that, what are they? Who is this excluded group you're talking about?

> he has some very important points which needs to be addressed and discussed

What are those points then? Please, let's discuss them

*Edit

I don't live in US, and I think Trump is a terrible person.

But if I lived in US, I probably would still vote for him.

First, some points of why to avoid voting Hillary and voting in any of the other candidates (including the weaker ones).

1. Hillary should be in jail, specially after the home e-mail server.

2. Hillary foreign policy style caused hundreds of thousands of needless deaths.

3. Hillary want to make that foreign policy even stronger, Hillary's and her friends and employees rhetoric about Syria suggests she is fully willing to outright attack Russia military there to ensure her goals, risking a WW3 scenario.

4. Hillary is clearly in the banks pockets, and will help them cause whatever 2008-style crisis is next, even if unintentionally.

-----------

Now some specific Trump points.

1. Trump wants to bring manufacturing back to US, this is very attractive to a massive number of poor men, that currently are just out of the labour force to the point of not even counting in unemployment statistics anymore.

2. Trump, despite being a unstable madman, also made clear he thinks US foreign policy should be related to leaving other countries alone and stop meddling, US is in serious need of a president that believes that, because all the presidents in the last 30 or 40 years were interventionists.

3. Trump wants to fix several social and economic problems of poor rural americans, unfortunately this topic is huge by itself, and I can't explain in detail, also I am not sure Trump knows what he is doing, but he wants to do /something/, differently from Hillary that called these people "deplorables" and think laws should be made harsher and 'punish' them more for being 'oppressors' of women and blacks.

LOL for REAL. You say Hilary should be in jail, which you're right, but Trump similarly has criminal accusations against him.

> Trump, despite being a unstable madman ...

REALLY?! How can anything valid proceed from that?

Trump has he said/she said accusations popping up, 20 years after, a month before election day.

Hillary has the director of the FBI calling her "extremely careless" (but difficult to prosecute) before Congress.

The accusations come up now because it's something that is hard to get punished for and it was a month before election day that he stated in front of everyone that his previous claims of bad behavior were not true.

Being careless doesn't generally merit jail time.

Regarding Trump point #2, I don't think his foreign policy is quite what you think it is. At a rally I went to in Greenville, SC, he referred to "glassing" Iran, and during a nationally televised debate he had this to say: http://youtu.be/IdOceoZfHuw

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt: I don't think he's malicious and I don't think he's interventionist. I think he has given these issues no more than 5 minutes thought.

I disagree. I think Marco’s point, which I strongly agree with, is that donating to Trump goes beyond just supporting a political candidate that you don’t happen to agree with. The fact that Trump has some valid policy ideas is completely besides the point. Amongst other things he is inciting racial and ethnic hatred, undermining trust in American democracy, encouraging violence and legitimising sexual assault. When you donate to Trump you are supporting this behaviour just as much as his policy ideas. This is the problem and is what is completely immoral in my opinion.

I think I should also mention that I am not a US citizen and do not live in the US so I speak as an outsider here.

So it's ok supporting Hillary even though she is largely responsible for huge parts of US foreign policy having sacrificed hundreds of thousands of innocent people as collateral damage for a bigger political goal.

Yet somehow the very words of Trump is immoral.

I guess I just don't get it.

She wasnt with Billy Bush while condemning people to die so it's not entertaining enough for people to care.

> So it's ok supporting Hillary even though she is largely responsible for huge parts of US foreign policy having sacrificed hundreds of thousands of innocent people as collateral damage for a bigger political goal.

I'm 99% certain that the Republican party is as deeply entrenched in the foreign policy directly responsible for the War on Terror, the War on Drugs (and all of the "lovely" people in Central/South America associated with that conflict), and many other conflicts related to the Cold War (Iran, the first Indochina War, Malayan emergency, Suez Crisis, Congo, Angola, Cuba, Nicaragua, Rhodesia, Mozambique, India-Pakistan, Libya, Cambodia, Chile, Israel and its neighbours, Afghanistan in the 70s, Grenada, Panama and many others).

Every conflict has two sides so let's not pretend that other actors aren't working the opposite side. But let's also not pretend that Hillary Clinton and the Democrats are somehow more responsible for the consequences of US foreign policy. Every Western nation and its government is actively involved in this policy to some degree.

Largely != solely. Did she actually do policy work as secretary of state? Did the work cause collateral damage at least in the thousands? Pretty sure the answer is yes.

Is this conspiracy theorizing or a serious statement? Either way it seems to seriously sacrifice your credibility and the spirit of the reality-based analysis your first comment invoked.

Let's take a reality-based approach to Libya, for example, often cited as Hillary's fault. In reality, it's hard to blame Hillary when the decision to engage in Libya was Obama's. In reality, it's hard to blame Obama when it was France and Great Britain that instigated the mission from the beginning and begged the US' help. In reality, it's hard to blame France and Great Britain when the simple, uncontroversial fact is that Gaddafi was a dictator/torturer/human-rights-abuser of epic proportions that had systematically destroyed political and civil institutions in his country guaranteeing a power vacuum when he was deposed. With this chain of responsibility in mind which likely equally applies to other foreign policy decisions, it's ridiculous to claim that Hillary is "largely responsible for sacrificing innocents". That's the kind of hyperbole that lacks any basis in reality.

I think this argument does more harm than good. Repeating "Trump is a bad man!" ad nauseam and shaming people for supporting him only makes them feel like outsiders, and outsiders double down.

The alternative is just as bad even if she's not as flagrant about being a criminal. Trust in "American Democracy" should be undermined because it's a garbage concept. It's all about whoever gets people like you to ignore their side's crimes and shout about how horrible the other side is.

The line of reasoning is that supporting a political candidate of a major political party in a political race for a political office is OK, fine, and normal in the general case. It's a key right that we need to maintain a free society. Supporting this particular candidate of this particular party in this particular race for this particular office is not, because it's different for a host of reasons.

I understand the logic. The thing is, every single office, race, candidate, and election is unique. There will always be some reason why this logic applies. Where do we draw the line? There are only two sane places that don't rest entirely on someone's personal mores - all or none. I'm inclined to lean towards people being "allowed" to make their own choices without being Othered for it.

That's what tolerance is - accepting people who make choices you personally loathe. Real tolerance is often a deeply uncomfortable thing.

> Racism is not just racism, sexism is not just sexism.

They are just wrong and they have no place in a modern western democracy.

This is true. The debate about Trump is made more complicated by the racism and sexism demonstrated by (those that happen to also be among) the most ardent Trump haters.

Following the USA campaign from far away, I hadn't yet heard of similar examples. Could you please elaborate a bit, or just post a link? Thanks in advance!

My assessment is based on (a) personal conversations with scores of strongly left-leaning people, as well as (b) many hundreds left-leaning blog posts, videos, left-leaning podcasts, and the like. Some of this evidence pre-dates Trump's involvement in the election.

Tangent, but related: I've noticed a very strong correlation between (a) those that think racism is exclusively "prejudice plus power" and (b) those who casually engage in some of the most despicable, hateful, and violent racism that I've seen in my lifetime.

When you and your community find it very easy to wash your hands of any wrong doing simply by redefining words, you are well on your path to losing your moral compass and doing terrible things in the world.

In response to your question I've looked for a blogger that has aggregated a body of evidence in one place. The only entities I found doing that are very strongly right-leaning, and I hesitate to link to them. I think it's a shame that left-leaning media seems to be ignoring this uptick in socially sanctioned racism.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it.

Go ahead and link to those blogs... otherwise it sort of sounds like you are just making baseless assertions. My experiences seem to be the exact opposite of yours. I wonder if its a regional thing? I am in the south. "racist", "rural" and "republican" are almost synonyms from what I have seen.

The problem is: Trump supporters just cannot comprehend how non-white people and immigrants are terrified and scared of Trump.

"Everyone have the right to say and mean". I see a problem here because people do things, perhaps it would be better if they only say or mean something.

That's a lot of hand-waving high-minded rhetoric. The problem is that Trump does not represent those 40% in any significant way.

- "free speech" is a protection against the government, not against Marcos/YC/whoever no longer working with you, which is also a form of speech.

- Trump is not and has never been part of the white, male underclass that makes up his support. He connects with them on exactly one level: hate. Hate against the "other", from foreigners, non-whites, or women, to people with a college degree and actually to poor people ("losers"). He has spent a week in a vendetta against some woman who apparently gained weight or something, less than two months before an election to the most powerful office in the world. I'm a big fan of nuance and complexity and I usually mistrust people with strong convictions. Here, this one time, it happens to be warranted.

More importantly, people don't fear his "policies", whatever they may be. There have been enough Republicans with trickle-down fantasies that we know it won't work, and probably kill a few poor people at the margins, but the republic will live on. The unique quality, setting him apart from GWB or Romney, is the damage he's planning to do to the sausage factory itself: he has explicitly advocated the jailing of his political opponents, laws making it illegal to criticize him, bills of attainer etc.

That's playing with fire, and it's past the point where people can agree to disagree and tolerate it. Even Republicans, some of them retiring and therefore free to follow their conscience and nothing else, are scared of him.

So no, there's no right to be spared the consequences of you words. That's actually quite a strange idea, considering speech without consequences seems useless. There is however a burden to push back against proto-fascists burning the constitution and wrapping themselves in the flag.

You're conflating the First Amendment with free speech. The First Amendment is a protection against the government. Free speech is a natural right that could be exercised in the absence of government.

There are no such things as «natural rights».

The problem is the racial manner in which he has chosen to conduct his campaign. Today we see the normalisation of hatred and marginalisation of entire races and religions. It's not even dog whistles, rather flat out villification purely based on observable groups. It might not bother the average white male, but believe it or not, there are other groups in society who will uprise one day in a very violent manner if this kind of rhetoric continues.

What about the normalization of hatred against an even larger portion of the population, those that support Trump? Speaking of uprising, ever think that Trump is a reaction to the marginalization and demonization of a certain subset of the population?

You cannot be serious. I have no sympathy and absolutely pure hatred for white nationalist nazi types on Breitbart. That is justified. I can't wait for all the racist old whites to die out in 3 to 4 decades resulting in world peace.

> You cannot be serious. I have no sympathy and absolutely pure hatred for white nationalist nazi types on Breitbart. That is justified. I can't wait for all the racist old whites to die out in 3 to 4 decades resulting in world peace.

Man you should read your own writing. You admit to being full of hatred and can't wait for a certain race of people to die out. Sounds about as bad as something a Nazi might say (oh if only a certain group of people was gone, the world would be perfect!!!).

And who said anything about Breitbart?

> he represents a group of people who haven't been represented for the last 40 years. A group who are themselves excluded from society. A group who experience their own form of discrimination by the likes of Marcos, me and everyone else who are benefitting from the progress of technology, globalization, taxation rules and so on.

I honestly think there's not a good choice in this election, but I find it ironic that the people who regularly make fun of poor people, call them "leeches" etc. want to cut social spending etc. and are known to hold the belief that "you probably didn't work hard enough" are now the ones left behind, "not working hard enough" to pull their own in modern society, yet still advocate for the same things as they were when in control...

Because it's utter bullshit. All of the polling tells us the Trump voters skew higher in wealth and wages than Clinton voters and that hate for "the other" is largely motivating their choice. It's a narrative Republicans love because it gives them some tie to authentic "real Americans" and an argument to deflect from their pure, naked racism and neoliberal Democrats love because it allows them to pin Trump on the working class, but it's completely wrong.

You accurately describe what I've seen of primary polling, but not what little general election polling I've seen that breaks out income levels, e.g., http://www.people-press.org/2016/08/18/1-voters-general-elec...

Read the poll, this still shows that Clinton has a larger slice of low income voters. Also who do you think Trump's base is? The people who voted for him given a pick at any of the potential nominees for president, or the people who had additional choices eliminated and were encouraged to vote based on partisan loyalty?

Also I've included polling data that is past the primary, and includes voter sentiment for the general election, such as the gallop poll. The trend towards upper-middle craftsmen jobs remains.

Yes. This is the similar point about Brexit. When the Brexit vote was on, instead of seeing that the Brexit leave people had some points that they wanted address, the remain people vilified them. Making sure that none of the points they wanted to get across was address. This furthered the gap and caused the divide.

The people who voted Brexit leave were disillusioned voters who think the current system is bad and their voices weren't being heard. But the remain camp instead of listening to them, pushed them away. The leave vote was a form of dissent from people who were upset with the current system. Yes they might have been racists amongst them, but they courted people who were excluded.

This is the worst kind of argument anyone can read about this topic.

What you are conveniently and deliberately ignoring is that the offense is being taken not at Trump's policies, but at his actions and his bigoted views.

Back in the day, you would have been making the same argument about apartheid in South Africa: who are we to criticize them? They're a sovereign country, they have their own ways of doing things! Forcing them to accept equal rights and democracy is cultural imperialism!

Give me a fucking break. Trump is an asshole because of his actions and his lies. No one uses these terms to describe McCain, Romney, etc. Why? Because while they are Republicans, they are not assholes.

Trump calls hardworking Mexican immigrants "rapists" and "criminals". He calls for a religious test to enter the country, banning all Muslims. He kept questioning Obama's citizenship, not because he really doubted where Obama was born, but because he couldn't get himself to admit that a BLACK man had won the WHITE house; and by denying Obama's legitimacy, you can deny his victory. Finally, he quickly discarded this position for political expediency, it having served its purpose to get him atop the GOP ticket. And in the latest revelations, Trump crows about grabbing women's pussies and assaulting them. THIS IS WHAT IS OBJECTIONABLE about Trump, not his ideas (or lack thereof). He's a liar and a bigot.

So it IS fair to question anyone who puts such significant resources into getting Trump elected. It is one thing to vote for Trump; but quite another to spend millions on getting him into the dictator's seat he covets. Don't give me this "it's against democracy" bullshit.

Coming back to South Africa: if we had not put in place the sanctions and economic boycotts, the black would still be feeling the batons today.

Yes, Trump is extremely valuable. He's exposing America's dirty laundry in a way that couldn't happen otherwise. There is a significant minority who want some autocracy in their government, or they don't care if that's what they get as long as the dear leader calls it like he sees it, even if how he sees the world is demonstrably wrong, and will give the undeniably very wealthy a tax break they may want but don't need.

He has some important points. White people are scared of the brown? They like their white privilege and don't want to give it up? They're attached to their misogyny in ways they can only articulate when off camera? Yes. Important. Just like it's important to look for blood in your stool.

I generally agree, that America since roughly the 1980s, has regressed politically. It puts its dirty diapers into the hamper, out of site out of mind, until the next election. It increasingly likes emotional tug of war, stoking anger and acrimony, rather than persistent converse. And that's how a con man has so impressively conned so much of the country. He couldn't care less about the gripes of those who have a legitimate complaint about how things aren't going all that well for them, but he's all too happy to exploit it. He can't fix any of these problems aside from obsoleting the Congress. I think he'd like that.

Trump TV, the next con. I think the original idea of running in the first place was just to sell his brand, not lead a country. He doesn't act like a leader at all, rather an ordinary stick that just likes stirring the pot. He's done nothing his entire life to make this country better, or the lot of those he now claims advocacy.

What's really at stake is making the leader of the country someone who resorts to name calling as his primary art of diplomacy. He was easily manipulated by Howard Stern, and there will be more gifted manipulators on the Hill, and around the world. Donald is out of his element. There is no bankruptcy lifeline for him at this level.

To support your position it's more complex than it appears I'm going to repost this article that correctly describes many issues leading to Trump support:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-on...

It's from an entertainment site but many claims in here are exactly what rural people tell me in person in 3 states plus online in a few more. That Duck Dynasty treated and portrayed them positively is why that show exploded in popularity to great confusion of many liberals. Trump is tapping into concerns of half the country that doesn't exist or is "a bunch of fucktards" in the minds of many (most?) city-dwelling and liberal Americans. I actually took time to listen to them to find many of their positions make more sense when you actually understand their lifestyle, businesses, upbringing, etc. My agreement was a mix with mostly disagreement but I saw where they're coming from. Shit like Trump's rise doesn't happen in a vacuum.

The sooner liberals and Silicon Valley start understanding rural America the better. They'll be able to target them with better political candidates, businesses, etc. There might also be increased cooperation instead of fighting. We might get more Trumps in the future if the disconnect remains and continues to increase.

> Racism is not just racism, sexism is not just sexism.

Yes, yes they are.

At this point, with the constant talk of how the election will be rigged and occasional talk of assassinating his opponent, a vote for Trump is a vote against the very foundations of democracy itself. It's no longer about decency, but about preserving the basis of our nation.

I respect everyone's right to express their views, whatever they may be, but there's no obligation to support people whose views I find reprehensible. And when someone supports those reprehensible views with a big chunk of cash, why shouldn't I object?

> Most only get involved around election

Which I am afraid indicates it has much more to do with "our team winning" than supposed goal of politics - i.e. making things work better. So when I read such demands as the parent post I can't help thinking "virtue signaling".

What is the relationship between what is at stake here and the suitability of Trump as the person most suited to realizing whatever real and true issues that his supporters want realized? Does wanting those issues to be addressed mean wanting a man like Trump for president as a matter of necessity? Does the importance of the issues Trump speaks to or purports to speak to trump the quality of the man?

    > For all the crazy things Trump says, for all is egoism he has some very
    > important points which needs to be addressed and discussed and he represents a
    > group of people who haven't been represented for the last 40 years. A group
    > who are themselves excluded from society. A group who experience their own
    > form of discrimination by the likes of Marcos, me and everyone else who are
    > benefitting from the progress of technology, globalization, taxation rules and
    > so on.

You are exactly right, and this is something many of my current friends who are generally well-to-do and live in a highly progressive city are unaware of.

I grew up in the South, and I have friends and family who have very much ended up on the "have-not" side of the economic equation over the past couple of decades. The US today is a shittier place if you're anywhere near the bottom half of the income chart. If you grew up poor in a poor state and didn't happen to get a good education, our country doesn't know what to do with you.

We took away your low-knowledge-but-high-skills manufacturing jobs. Those got outsourced or automated away. The chronic pain you likely suffer from those back breaking jobs is even worse today. First your doctor got you hooked on Oxy, then that was taken away, so there's a real chance you're self-medicating with any of a cornucopia of drugs up to and including heroin and meth.

You don't have an employer to provide you healthcare, and you can't afford it on your own. You're sick, tired, and unemployed. And you didn't do anything to deserve it. You took the public education you were offerred and worked hard at the jobs you could find.

You're too poor to move away from your shithole town. You rely on your constellation of family and friends so you have no mobility. Even if you could move, your lack of service skills and the booming real estate market means you couldn't find a job in a big city that paid enough for you to survive.

These people are angry, and justifiably so. The wealthy and the urban progressives have reshaped the country to their benefit and left a lot of people behind. It's a great time to be a skilled service worker in a big city, and not a great time to be much else.

So I totally get where Trump supporters are coming from. If you listen to his rhetoric, he knows exactly the pain these people feel and speaks directly to them. I don't blame them for supporting him.

The problem is that he's full of shit and not a single thing he is promising them will come to pass, or is even a coherent proposal. The heartbreaking part of this election is not that people support Trump who is a raging asshole, but sadly that they believe he would even help them if he won.

This is basically a zero-win election for the poor in the US.

Is criticizing someone who plans to jail his political opponent also suppressing him too?

Why should we suppose there is any other agenda than what he says it is?

>he represents a group of people who haven't been represented for the last 40 years

He _appeals_ to that group but what he has said does not indicate any serious intention to benefit it.

An utter disinterest in the details of how to bring it about such a benefit and a near total focus on blame shifting to vulnerable groups and conspiracy theories makes it painfully clear this is merely a self interested demagogue.

This is very deeply regrettable because the group he appeals to does in fact need help. But as has happened repeatedly historical, they have instead been lured in by an aggressively anti-democracy demagogue.

This is so wise and respectful. I really appreciate this comment.

Someone supporting Trump does not imply that they are sexist or racist. The issues are complex. Ultimately, if an employee has shown nothing but respect for fellow coworkers and is performing their job adequately, then I don't think you have a good reason to fire them.

What if I fired an employee for donating to a church? Or to the Clinton campaign? Regardless of the legality of the action, I would never do this. I believe it would be dishonorable. Now, if the employee were causing problems at work, then this is an entirely different situation.

We must respect each other's differences. Firing Marcos would only succeed in alienating him, further entrenching him in his perspective.

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." Firing someone on the basis of a political donation (to a major candidate, nonetheless) seems pretty hateful to me.

Respect for the parent commenter, and Sam Altman for doing (what I think) is the difficult but honorable thing.

Great post. People seem to lose track of the fact that political views exist on a spectrum and that our individual views can be quite different than the "team" ideology (conservatives who support gay marriage and liberals who support gun rights etc).

We need more people willing to work the middle ground and find reasonable compromises.

The implication here is that Trump voters are working class people who have been drawn to Trump by virtue of their economic anxiety, concern about loss of their jobs via globalization or immigration, etc. The image in mind is coal or steel workers or industrial factory workers in rust belt cities that have lost their jobs. It's a seductive narrative to Republicans to try to claim the working class, and to classist Democrats to pin Trump on dumb hicks. It's also fundamentally at odds with what all the data tells us.

The first thing that's wrong about this is the assumption that the most economically disenfranchised vote at all. The least financially secure voters have some of the lowest turnout in America, with only about 20% of them voting [1]. These people fundamentally don't vote. The second problem is to try to pretend like Trump actually has a claim on the working class as his base to a greater extent than other candidates. He doesn't [2]. The median income on Trump supporters from the primaries was higher than that of Clinton supporters or Bernie supporters. He also claims a larger take of the wealthiest voters, who compose 9% of his voters in the primary, vs. Clinton and Sanders' 7% and 5% respectively. Fundamentally, his demographic skews more wealthy than the democrats.

A recent gallop survey with a large sample size shows that Trump's base don't live in areas that experience job loss due to companies moving overseas, nor do they live in areas with large immigrant populations [3]. They live in areas that are largely racially segregated (largely white). They have tradecraft jobs like HVAC repairmen, plumber, etc. and live relatively comfortably. Fundamentally though, these people have low exposure to people of color, which might explain their bigotry. Finally, surveys tend to show that Trump voters have a more negative opinion of muslims and people of color [4], which should be of no surprise.

So no, please pedal your "Trump's voters are the economically anxious white workers of America" narrative somewhere else. The truth is that Trump voters are bigots.

[1]: http://www.people-press.org/2015/01/08/the-politics-of-finan...

[2]: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-...

[3]: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2822059

[4]: http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/15/13286498/d...

Millenials don't make much money so your median income statistics are skewed toward younger people who tend more democrat.

That only (partially) explains the median income for Bernie voters, not Clinton voters: http://graphics.wsj.com/elections/2016/how-clinton-won/

Also I'm not sure why that's important, is your assumption that Millennials don't have legitemate economic anxiety?

It's important because while income and class are correlated they aren't the same thing; a young member of the middle class will often have income less than someone well into a working class career.

And Clinton supporters in the general election tend to be much younger than Trump supporters. ("Bernie voters" in the primary are, overwhelmingly, Clinton supporters in the general.)

Class is a set of wealth and income categories (or is in the US anyways, I can't speak for other countries). I'm not sure why you claim they're "correlated". They're literally the same thing.

No, it's not. Income is often used as a proxy for class, but it's not the same thing.

It seems like your assertion here is that Clinton's supporters skew low income because they're college students being subsidized by their parents and not actual low income workers or unemployed non-dependents. So while your own poll in the other thread basically rejects that by giving the share of voters for family income and not individual income, you still haven't actually given any data to support this. All you've done is tell me I'm wrong about what the definition of class is without an alternate definition.

You also haven't done any work towards arguing against the fact that voters for Trump fundamentally don't live in areas with high immigrant populations or where their jobs were moved overseas. In other words the notion that Trump voters support immigration reform and trade protectionism because they have bad run-ins with our current policies on these issues.

Face it, Trump voters are bigots.

You for sure flagged my post here.

this is the most condescending and hypocritical post i think I may have ever read in my life. dear lord.

> Marcos understanding of this situation is extremely telling for a fundamental problem with many americans relationship with politics. Most only get involved around election. After that their political interest is non existing.

Translation: he disagrees with me therefore he must not follow or understand politics. Do I have any proof of this? No.

Reality: Those that actually follow politics and keep informed are the ones who are really disgusted by Trump.

>It's easy to get lured into the idea that politics is a simple choice between the moral good and the moral bad, that the choice is simple and that there is a one to one relationship between what you vote for and what you get.

Translation: I'm assuming people who disagree with me have this simplistic view of politics without any proof.

Reality: Trump is a unique and scary fascist beast. McCain and Romney and every other candidate for decades has been a great, upstanding, person morally. They had the fitness to lead and I simply disagreed with them on some policy points. This is a different beast entirely. The fact that you don't see this actually tells me you don't follow politics at all and are assuming that this election is the same as others.

>If you don't want dissent, fine just admit it. That way at least you are being honest. Don't wrap your lack of political understanding into some claim of decency.

Translation: If you disagree with me or rebuke racism and sexism you must not want dissent.

Reality: dissent is fine and encouraged. We'd have loved Rubio or Jeb but that isn't what we got.

Shame on Marco. I can't stand Trump, but I also can't stand this ganging up on Thiel. I guess the fact that he's a billionaire means he can be bullied, but this political bullying has a chilling effect that leads to the lackluster choices we get for president every four years.

Thiel sees Hillary as a bigger threat to his interests than Trump. To prefer an outcome does not imply you favor all aspects of that outcome. As arrogant and simple-minded as Trump comes across, he didn't stay wealthy without delegating his authority, and there would be violence to no-end if he appointed racists and sexists to high-level positions. That egomaniac ultimately seeks admiration, and the threat of "deporting illegals" was most-likely (you never know and that's why I'm not voting for the guy) a strategy to get the nomination.

Instead of Thiel, we should be admonishing our media, which couldn't have hand-picked two more controversial figures and allowed themselves to be manipulated at every step. We should be admonishing Hillary and Trump supporters who turn a blind eye to their unethical tactics and ends justify the means mindset. The ends (aka political payback) usually just result in more corruption and more things to fix with government. We need to stop this cycle. We can start buy turning off the TV, and considering a third party.

> I guess the fact that he's a billionaire means he can be bullied

No, the fact that he is supporting a republican means he can be bullied. The tolerant left is on some radical moralistic high ground right now and it's far more dangerous than any words Trump has said.

When the campaign of a presidential nominee (Hillary) is recruiting the homeless and mentally ill to cause violence at Trump rallies, simply condemning and attacking someone for having different political views is all but normal.

> When the campaign of a presidential nominee (Hillary) is recruiting the homeless and mentally ill to cause violence at Trump rallies

Citation very VERY needed. James O'Keefe is not an acceptable - that is, truthful - source. [1]

> The tolerant left is on some radical moralistic high ground right now and it's far more dangerous than any words Trump has said.

You need to unpack this. I don't understand how any ideology of "radical moralistic high ground" is more dangerous than Trump's "rigged election" rhetoric, which calls into (unnecessary and unfounded) question the system our country is built on.

[1] http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/James_O'Keefe

The O'Keefe video[1] shows extended primary source material of named Democratic operatives bragging about recruiting the homeless to deliberately cause violence at conservative events, including providing scripted words.

You may not like the editing, and there could be material edited out that redeem the Clinton operatives 1-5%. But not much. At least by my lights, the evidence is quite damning.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY

The "we have mentally ill people" bit is at 1:26, for anyone who doesn't want to sit through the whole thing.

https://youtu.be/5IuJGHuIkzY?t=86

The thing is, that's what people said about his previous work, and so much of that was discredited, it's hard to believe it this time. Definite case of boy-who-cried-wolf, for me.

I will admit I'm biased: I find the allegations very difficult to believe and their timing extremely convenient. That doesn't mean they aren't true (any more than the sex assault allegations against Trump are false because they only just came out recently), but rather that further scrutiny is reasonable.

There's also the argument that there's a big difference between individuals in the campaign doing something, and the campaign endorsing/encouraging/demanding something. That defense has been used by the Trump campaign whenever it finds anti-Semitic, white nationalist or obviously racist campaign operatives in the media (as has happened several times), so if it applies there, it ought to apply here.

> There's also the argument that there's a big difference between individuals in the campaign doing something, and the campaign endorsing/encouraging/demanding something.

The Foval Group is contracted directly with the DNC. As far as anyone knows, Trump has never paid anti-Semitic or racist protesters to literally cause physical harm to people at Hillary rallies.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to make excuses for the words Trump has spoken, words are EXTREMELY important, but the level corruption inside the Hillary campaign is on a completely different level than things Trump says. Remember, actions speak louder than words. With Trump, all we have right now are words. With Hillary, we have actions. What I am seeing right now is one candidate being exposed for massive corruption while another candidate is promising to clean up the corruption in US politics and essentially make it illegal for politicians to become lobbyists. That, in my opinion, is very important.

Edit2: Also, on the topic of voter fraud https://d1sb17b1leotpq.cloudfront.net/rigging-election-%E2%8...

Foval and Creamer are disgusting, but it remains unclear how much power they had in the DNC at large and if Hillary was aware of any of it. From the undercover recordings, they seem to me like megalomaniacs who see themselves as Machiavellian gods or something, which is a common theme for middle-managers overstating their reach. Maybe it'll be revealed the upper tiers were aware of what they were doing, but it also seems plausible they were self-initiated.

> We should be admonishing Hillary and Trump supporters who turn a blind eye to their unethical tactics and ends justify the means mindset.

You don't consider Peter Thiel to fall in this category? Why not?

Fair point, but it really depends if Trump is being unethical in his campaign and might be as president. Sure he frequently spouts utter nonsense. He's only unethical if he knows he's doing it. Hard to say with that guy. With the Clinton emails, we have evidence of unethical behavior, and we have many prominent defenders responding with "look how bad Trump is". Sure that's what conservative media has been doing to Hillary 90% of the time, but there's not a lot of love for how embarrassing Trump is right now, as a conservative AND a human being. Thiel's recent silence (AFAIK) is telling.

Bullying implies a power relationship where Thiel is weak, and strong people are ganging up on him. But Thiel is a powerful man.

This is just debate. Huge, internet-clogging amounts of debate.

People are calling for the severing of working relationships based on the guy's politics, which is perhaps not a textbook definition of bullying but more than just debate.

Sadly the concept of civil debate seems to have been lost somewhere along the way.

Next you're probably going to deny that you're bullying Facebook!!!!!! :)

People criticizing YC over this either actually believe, or are affecting to believe, that it's perfectly reasonable for them to drag others into their black and white worldview, in which apparently this season you're only allowed to align yourself with Democrats.

Thiel donating to Trump is not a big deal.

Honestly, if people really wanted to solve this 'issue' instead of criticizing the business ethics of YC, they'd go DONATE TO THE OPPOSITE CANDIDATE and VOTE ON NOVEMBER 8TH.

Because in the end, it's ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE, and I'm sure there's more people who disagree with Thiel than agree.

But then again, media—that includes HN—needs a news story.

> Because in the end, it's ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE,

Not sure this is really true. Because in the end, ads are effective, political spending influences people, and people like Thiel have vastly more money than I do.

If we were only worried about how Thiel was going to cast his own vote, then we wouldn't be having a conversation right now. But we are having a conversation, so it's a bit disingenuous to pretend all we should care about is one man's vote.

Let me ask you this - Why do you think the FEC chose to implement a limit of $2700 for individual donations to a political campaign?

Is it possible to think that law serves a legitimate purpose, and ALSO to think it's fine for billionaires to give multiple millions to a candidate? I allege that it is not.

I would argue that this election season is an exception: both candidates are polarizing, leaving very little room for undecided voters.

As a result, the marginal efficiency of political donations is drastically decreased.

In a regular campaign season, political donations that contribute to advertisement and outreach are more important, as there is a larger undecided population to target / convince; hence, the limit of individual donations seems applicable then, but not now.

In my opinion, regardless of who wins, a limit on how much a candidate can spend on their campaign should be enforced. Hopefully, this would remove any subjectivity associated with political rhetoric, with people focusing more on a candidates objective politics (such as policy).

> In my opinion, regardless of who wins, a limit on how much a candidate can spend on their campaign should be enforced

Okay, and how about organizations that have absolutely no affiliation with the candidate, who simply have an opinion and want to express it through ad spending? Can they have unlimited budgets and can I make unlimited donations to them?

We need to limit paid political speech, like ads. Not harshly, but at patiently and firmly.

> I guess the fact that he's a billionaire means he can be bullied

Poor billionaires, being bullied and called names by random plebs on the internet. Let's start a feel-good charity for billionaires.

> Thiel sees Hillary as a bigger threat to his interests than Trump. To prefer an outcome does not imply you favor all aspects of that outcome.

It is however evidence of Thiel's values. He's chosen his side, and it is perfectly reasonable for people judge him on the fact that cares less about Trump's willingness to stoke hatred than whatever flaws he finds in Hillary Clinton.

"Instead of Thiel, we should be admonishing our media"

I know it's trendy to bash the media, but I'm not buying that our current candidates are the fault of "the media" and not the voters themselves.

More than enough information was reported about Trump during the primaries to make it clear exactly what kind of person he was, and the Republican voters decided this is the person they wanted to represent them.

The DNC maybe was tilting their contest in Clinton's favor over Bernie, but I don't know that the same can be said about "the media".

> the Republican voters decided this is the person they wanted to represent them

You might as well say the American voters decided that, since it wasn't even close to a majority of Republicans. Trump's rhetoric just played well to poorer, xenophobic conservatives, and there are plenty of those in every state, and his asinine comments got him a lot of free publicity on the "boob tube".

> I don't know that the same can be said about "the media".

I don't think reports of violence at Trump rallies ever called into question that these might have been instigated by DNC operatives. But they will now, right?

So they might not have hand picked Hillary, but they definitely allowed themselves to be manipulated by her campaign to some degree.

> ...our media, which couldn't have hand-picked...

According to wikileak's hacking of Hillary's email, they didn't handpick anyone - it was Hillary who was telling them what to do.

Thanks, Marco, for drawing my attention to Sam Altman's great blog post. More people should take Sam's attitude:

The way we got into a situation with Trump as a major party nominee in the first place was by not talking to people who are very different than we are. The polarization of the country into two parallel political realities is not good for any of us. We should talk to each other more, not less.

We should all feel a duty to try to understand the roughly half of the country that thinks we are severely misguided. I don’t understand how 43% of the country supports Trump. But I’d like to find out, because we have to include everyone in our path forward. If our best ideas are to stop talking to or fire anyone who disagrees with us, we’ll be facing this whole situation again in 2020.

This comment deserves more attention.

Yes, because how else are we going to hear the views of white billionaires?

But it's also about outcomes. As I understand it, Altman considers a Trump win a bad thing for America.

There's no inconsistency between, on the one hand, repudiating Thiel's material support of Trump and, on the other hand, figuring out how to engage Trump supporters and their issues going forward.

The former helps prevent an immediate bad event, the latter builds a future in which America is less likely to fragment further and leave more people on the outside.

Nowhere in these does anybody stop talking to anyone. Altman talks to Thiel and publically disavows Thiel's support of Trump. Altman puts his own considerable resources and thought into talking with Trump supporters to see what's up with them, really. Everybody's talking. Granted, the conversations aren't easy, but they're talking.

IMHO Sam's is a pretty good post, and I also feel Sam is basically saying Peter Thiel gets a pass because he's Peter Thiel and because Trump is a major party nominee, but if anyone else were publicly supporting a basically anti-free speech, anti-immigrant, anti-women, democracy-undermining extremist organization or politician, no reasonable person would want them as an investor or adviser.

Which I think Marco sums up well saying, someone who says what Trump is saying could not be associated with YC, and donating over $1m is saying you strongly support what Trump is saying.

IMO saying you shouldn't fire someone over politics, shouldn't be a free pass to support ANYTHING, including things antithetical to basic human values or YC values/interests, if it happens to be from a presidential candidate.

This thread really reinforces my respect for Altman and others like him. Of the 1,000 or so comments in this thread, hardly anyone managed to capture this simple, yet profound concept as well as Sam.

If Trump is bad, he's a symptom more than a disease. Shunning Republicans isn't going to change their mind, it's going to drive them to echo chambers like /r/the_donald where they will have their beliefs reinforced, not challenged.

Posts like this play directly into Trump's hands. The entire Trump ideology is based on a belief that "real Americans" are being oppressed by a sinister "global elite". Demanding that Trump supporters be fired tells everyone that the "elites" are a) scared of Trump, b) can't win through arguments and have to resort to intimidation, and c) are a powerful, dangerous group which is hostile to average people, who need someone to protect them from this sinister force. Which is all, of course, exactly what Donald Trump wants them to believe.

Daily newspapers have endorsed Clinton by a margin of 147 to 2. It should be obvious, over a year after the Trump campaign started, that anyone voting for Trump isn't going to be dissuaded by yet another article calling him racist. Indeed, I think many Trump supporters back him because of all the articles calling him racist. "They" must be scared of Trump (the logic goes), or else "they" wouldn't spend so much effort attacking him, so Trump must be the only "truly independent" candidate who will "fight the system".

If you don't believe me, look at eg. this comment on /r/The_Donald, which was voted up to #1 on a recent Peter Thiel article:

"True story. I once hung out with a group of lesbians (most my friends are male), and when they found out I didn't agree with them politically, they told me they were taking away my dyke card. Thankfully there are a LOT of gays who give no fucks about the 'lgbtqjseflelkf community', and just live their lives like anyone else. This article is nothing more than typical democrat tactics. 'YOU'RE NOT A REAL <insert minority> UNLESS YOU DO WHAT WE SAY.' REMEMBER IF TRUMP WEREN'T A REAL THREAT, THEY WOULDN'T BE THIS DESPERATE." (emphasis in original)

The same tactics have been used against Trump over and over and over, for more than a year now, and his support is still pretty much where it was during the summer. Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over and over, and expecting different results.

the alternative to denouncing outright support for racist and sexist position is accepting it as normal political speech, which sounds worse.

There's this trope that attacking this position doesn't harm (or even helps) Trump, but polling has shown the contrary. The scandals involving his comments about women, about the muslim veteran, his mocking of a reporter with disabilities, have always been followed by drops in polling for him. His tax policies, a bit less so.

Talking about how Trump's positions are terrible cause his numbers to go down. If that's not effective political speech, I don't know what is.

EDIT: Nate Silver made this point better than me in a mini-tweetstorm (tweet-shower?) https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/784777881482170368

Denouncing, sure. But what we're seeing is a push to fire, exclude, and not engage with Trump supporters. Think of how many people insist that they don't know a single Trump voter.

That's not something which hurts his candidacy. It convinces his supporters that they're under attack (they literally are), and encourages people to keep silent rather than admit that they like any of what he says. Ignoring him might have worked at 5% in the polls, but at ~50% you need to engage his supporters.

That doesn't mean treating his positions as 'normal', but there's plenty of room between that and firing donors and banning campaign signs.

Right, polling shows that 95% of Romney Voters are voting Trump (or at least this was the case a couple weeks ago), so excluding everyone is a bit much. There are many degrees of support to be given, as well.

Thiel is not just a Trump supporter though, he's a major donor. Out there doing fundraising and fullheartedly defending Trump's positions through money. At what point do you have to actually take responsibility for your actions if not after writing a million dollar check? At what point does SV decide that having someone materially supporting a fascist as a major player in the community is not super hot?

Fun side note, there was some polling done that showed that Americans are now extremely unlikely to date someone who supports a different political party.

I don't think 'employees' should be fired on the basis of who they support. But Thiel is an extremely powerful and wealthy businessman, who, let's not forget, put a news organization out of business because he didn't like their reporting.

The numbers dropped because of the events themselves, not because people shamed and threatened the supporters.

> The entire Trump ideology is based on a belief that "real Americans" are being oppressed by a sinister "global elite".

Yes there is in fact a campaign of elites against Trump, in case you don't believe that I suggest taking a look at the recent wikileaks.

Or how Clinton has a disdain for your average American voter? And plans to push through trade agreements that hurt the very Americans whose vote she's trying to get?

I can't imagine why half the country won't vote for her.

I know minorities and women who will still vote for Trump after everything that has happened; perhaps it'd be wise if you dislike Trump to understand why that is and what has brought us to this point instead of putting your head in the sand.

What are Trump and Thiel if not "elites"? So it seems the elites are campaigning against each other.

At times I've suspected this entire cacophony of anti-Trump vitriol was just a ploy to convince the plebes that he isn't one of TPTB... What would really change under Trump? Coke and Pepsi taste the same to me.

Change: no WW III. Seems good enough of a difference to me.

The guy who "will end ISIS very, very quickly", and might just use nukes to do it?

http://fortune.com/2016/03/23/trump-nuclear-weapons-isis/

Putin's Warning Against Electing Hillary Clinton:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4gTt7Y1agU

Thanks! I always appreciate an unbiased source like Putin to clear up matters of US politics.

It would take a very principled person to resist the various appeals of the military-industrial complex. Trump is not that person. All it will take is a couple of ex-generals making the rounds on Sunday morning saying, "if Trump weren't such a pussy he'd be bombing the Syrians already!"

How can you be sure that Trump is lying about every single thing he says? Every position he claims to hold would be a massive change. Most of Clinton's positions are "everything is pretty good, just need a few tweaks".

Elites relative to whom? Clinton has decades in the top echelons of power besides being married to an ex-POTUS so I guess it is hard to be more elite on a global scale.

Trump might be elite compared to the average Joe on the street but he has no political history comparable to Clinton.

And the biggest issue of all: Trump seems to be the best candidate to avoid WW III.

The socialist tradition has a suitable term: "class traitor".

The ruling class is ruling, in substantial parts because they are better at cooperating than other classes (and are good at seeding discord in other classes). One aspect of ruling class cooperation is ruthlessly punishing their own class traitors.

I suspect that is part of what the whole saga is about.

In a sea of partisan squabble, you've said something truly worthy of thought. This has analogs in everything from organized crime to the interactions of genes.

That's interesting. What are some other examples of ruling-class traitors getting punished?

P.S. I hate having to add a disclaimer like this, but: I'm genuinely interested.

I don't have an example of one getting punished, but I do recall this book, Traitor to His Class: The Privileged Life and Radical Presidency of Franklin Delano Roosevelt: https://www.amazon.com/Traitor-His-Class-Privileged-Presiden...

Insider trading prosecutions are usually examples of either this phenomenon or the related effort to keep upstarts out of the executive class. Only certain people may steal from investors in public firms.

Trump supporters believe in a batshit conspiracy theory. That doesn't mean reasonable people should change their behavior to mitigate those concerns.

One concern with this line of argumentation: reasonable people shouldn't have to change their behavior, but rational people might want to.

That is, suppose you believe (as I do) that D.T. and his supporters are quite dangerous. If they are using my behavior to gain strength, it behooves me to change my behavior!

Sometimes, perhaps. But not if that change in behavior itself gives support and comfort to bigotry, deception, and authoritarianism, as it would here.

I'm deeply uncomfortable with the narrative where support for Trump is a basis for excluding a person from discussion and employment. He's a major party candidate, supported (if sometimes disliked) by roughly half the population. That's not a number of people you can fire or silence!

The usual argument runs that this time is unique, that Trump has embraced racism and violence and his major-party status should not bury that. That he is effectively (sometimes "literally") a facist, and should be treated as such. I think it's an inadequate, alarming response.

Just about half of voters will back Trump. At that scale, silencing and marginalizing them is impossible, so whether it's moral doesn't really matter. Shunning influences people when it cuts them off from their social circles, but most of the people embracing shunning admit they know 0-1 Trump supporters. It's not going to marginalize anyone, just deepen a divide between the groups.

Even if Trump were quite literally Mussolini 2.0, firing and shunning his supporters wouldn't end his candidacy. In fact, refusing to engage with facists has historically pushed them further, letting them build their beliefs unopposed.

I respected Altman's explanation. It doesn't matter that Trump is different, or that Thiel donated an exceptional amount (particularly since it was in line with his wealth). Firing people for simple support or donations makes this problem worse, so no amount of importance is a justification.

Nobody is suggesting excluding Trump supporters from employment.

Would anyone be shocked if that came up in Part II? Brendan Eich wouldn't be...

There's no political argument that you can't turn into a slippery slope like this. You can get to Brendan Eich with just a few more hops from a starting point of "refusing to donate to Trump". So that argument isn't very interesting.

What might interest you more is that I agree with you about Brendan Eich. I think Eich's situation is nothing at all like that of Thiel's. Eich was a full-time employee of Mozilla. From what I know of the situation, Eich hadn't made any of his employees at Mozilla uncomfortable. Eich's support for Proposition 8 was quiet: people dug it out of a database to use against him. And while I disagree with the stance he took against marriage equality, opposition to marriage equality doesn't challenge equal access to the channels of democracy. Eich wasn't campaigning to remove the Muslims from our country, or to imprison those who disagree with him.

What happened to Eich was wrong.

But nothing like that is happening here.

OK, you'll be shocked. That's fine; politics is a matter of taste. For that reason, it is ever plagued by this sort of fuzzy, tone-policing, last-year-you-could-say-that-but-not-this-year, latest-fashion argument. Most political pundits owe their careers to that insipid bullshit. Personally I'd like both of the candidates under discussion to go jump in a lake, so we could elect someone opposed to the Eternal War on Everything. That's off-narrative, however, so it will be best to avoid both rural Arab weddings and plant-based pain control for some time to come.

"First they came for the Billionaires, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a Billionaire. Then they came for the..."

You know who "they" refers to in the original poem, right?

Of course. I also know it started as a left-wing workers movement that moved to the right to gain favour of the wealthy capitalists required to fund its growth which included seizing control over the media.

As a European looking from the outside and more than aware of this history, I see the media goose-stepping to the tune of one campaign which uses it to stoke up moral outrage about their opposition of which this story is a current symptom. The candidate that rhymes with history is not the chaotic/offensive TV personality.

Are you kidding? At no point during that parties history was it ever 'left-wing'. It was partially funded and staffed by the military, and originally organized to push hard against leftist elements in Germany. It primarily appealed to workers as a conservative alternative to leftist politics, quite similar to the conservative party we have today.

>> At no point during that parties history was it ever 'left-wing'

What?! Of course it was - history time: the small feller with moustaches joined an anti-capitalist workers party. It's in the name - it was socialist but nationalist so anti-communist but still decidedly to the left of say the DNC today. Check the manifesto including things like banning rentiers, seizing land, obligating pensions and this little gem "We want all very big corporations to be owned by the government" etc. The moral is that its not where you start, its where you go that matters.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSDAP_25_points_manifesto

You are completely ignoring the part where he effectively replaced the core of that insignificant political party during the takeover. It's incredibly deceptive to conflate the single most conservative movement in history with leftism because of a hostile takeover of a tiny political party. If you actually read those 25 points, it's a blueprint for a regressive totalitarian dictatorship with a command economy. If you consider that 'leftist', then I couldn't disagree more.

The Nazi party had a left wing well until just before Hitler was appointed chancellor, when it started causing problems for the man and he had it purged. (A lot of the leaders of this wing of the party were killed in the Night Of The Long Knives.)

Source: I read a biography on Hitler, but I don't have time to go track down the exact citations/references. This page might be a good start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Strasser

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

There were factions in the Nazi Party, both conservative and radical.[23] The conservative Nazi Hermann Göring urged Hitler to conciliate with capitalists and reactionaries.[23] Other prominent conservative Nazis included Heinrich Himmler and Reinhard Heydrich.[24]

The radical Nazi Joseph Goebbels hated capitalism, viewing it as having Jews at its core, and he stressed the need for the party to emphasise both a proletarian and national character. Those views were shared by Otto Strasser, who later left the Nazi Party in the belief that Hitler had betrayed the party's socialist goals by allegedly endorsing capitalism.[23] Large segments of the Nazi Party staunchly supported its official socialist, revolutionary, and anti-capitalist positions and expected both a social and economic revolution upon the party's gaining power in 1933.[25] Many of the million members of the Sturmabteilung (SA) were committed to the party's official socialist program.[25] The leader of the SA, Ernst Röhm, pushed for a "second revolution" (the "first revolution" being the Nazis' seizure of power) that would entrench the party's official socialist program. Further, Röhm desired that the SA absorb the much smaller German Army into its ranks under his leadership.[25]

When the whole point is showing it to be a false analogy? Yes.

It seems like most people want YC to cut Thiel off, which would be very similar to that. David Heinemeier Hansson and Ellen Pao have advocated for virtually that exact scenario.

Thiel doesn't even get equity in YC. Thiel's participation in YC is almost literally just a marketing tactic --- it's a co-endorsement. We're telling Altman: rethink the endorsement.

And once that happens, that legitimizes DHH firing Basecamp employees who vote for Trump. I understand that Thiel's involvement with YC is not "employment," but the point is that 1) yes, people are suggesting excluding Trump supporters from employment and 2) high visibility people doing so would have a massive ripple effect on everybody else. It's just another thing that goes from "that's insane and you can't do that" to "these other companies have done it, so it's no big deal."

You can construct a slippery slope out of any argument. I can get you to "DHH fires Basecamp employees" from "refusal to donate to Donald Trump" in just a few more steps. So that argument is not compelling.

It's more productive for us to concentrate on the arguments that are actually being made. You don't have to, of course, but I don't think you'll get very far otherwise.

> that legitimizes DHH firing Basecamp employees who vote for Trump

Except that democratic voting systems are set up to make to make it impossible to prove who you voted for.

Yes, of course. I should have said "support" instead of "vote for."

How would that make you feel if you were a YC-funded founder who happened to support Trump? The semantics of Thiel's relationship with YC doesn't change anything.

You think the idea that Altman disavowing Thiel would make Trump supporters uncomfortable will persuade me to stop asking Altman to disavow Thiel?

There's a line there. If Altman wants to express support for another candidate or express disagreement with Thiel's views -- great! The political process at work. What is not okay is him using his position of power to seek retribution against Thiel for his views. YC is not a political organization. It's not about making Trump supporters uncomfortable, it's about making them afraid to exercise their right to free speech.

To be clear, I am not a Trump supporter, but dehumanizing Trump supporters is not a productive approach.

This feels like exactly the thing that's been dismissed as an unrealistic slippery slope elsewhere in the thread.

When the narrative was "Thiel's connection to YC is about prestige, so YC should sever that connection to preserve its reputation", I found it basically reasonable.

But if the narrative is "Disavowing Thiel will make Trump-supporting founders uncomfortable with coming to YC, or uncomfortable admitting their support?" Then we've jumped to punishing people professionally for being in a group comprising 40%+ of the country.

Hounding founders who support Trump (who, perhaps, don't even donate or like many of his views) seems to go straight into the awful kind of patronage/exclusion politics that's being condemned here.

I do not support "hounding founders who support Trump". In fact, I don't support hounding most Trump supporters. I am content with hounding key members of the Trump campaign itself.

This seems reasonable - becoming a key member of a political campaign means signing on for that sort of thing - but I'm struggling to reconcile it with the earlier statement. If making Trump supporters uncomfortable about entering a business arrangement is a good thing, surely that's about trying to put economic pressure on Trump supporters in general?

I'm not trying to be uncharitable here - I honestly don't follow. One possibility is that since YC founders often end up quite wealthy, you're talking about discouraging the next Thiel rather than discouraging business with Trump supporters in general?

It should. It's extremely bad to exclude people for disagreeing with their political positions. We need to learn how to disagree politely and civilly, and how to keep our disagreements from bleeding over into our total personal evaluation of the opposing person. That's applicable to both sides. Our civilization and democracy depends on mutual toleration and an ability to separate the personal from the partisan.

Cutting people off only further isolates them. If you really want to convert Trump supporters, you have to show them the error of their ways gradually, just like with everything else. Writing them off as irredeemable based on their political preferences is not only inadvisable, but fundamentally destructive of the binding social fabric of the republic.

Wasn't that the exact reason many developers cancelled Oculus Rift support unless Facebook severed ties with Palmer Luckey?

I wasn't aware that there was a boycott of Oculus over Palmer Luckey, but man, that's heartening to hear. I have to admit that I would not have picked "political integrity" over "access to VR toys" in that particular sparring match. Good for those developers!

Boycotts are a form of speech. The right to criticize is inalienable.

First, the argument isn't over whether Graham and Altman can drop ties to Thiel, it's whether they should.

Second, if you think that firing an employee for their political beliefs is a straw man, you should be standing up for Palmer Luckey in this case.

He's a major party candidate, supported (if sometimes disliked) by roughly half the population. That's not a number of people you can fire or silence!

Are you sure? Prop 8 was _passed_ (i.e. it was voted in favor of by more than half of California's population), and yet we still regularly hold witch hunts for people that supported it. I've actually been asked about it on a job application.

> I've actually been asked about it on a job application.

It seems like that's probably illegal, though here's hopefully some nuance:

It probably shouldn't be illegal. The parts of the civil rights legislation that reach into the private sector should be probably be repealed/sunsetted. It should be sufficient to have the government actually recognize/implement equal protection under the law. E.g., if the KKK burns down the local shop that serves people of color or is owned by a person of color, the police should bring the KKK members to justice.

To keep going, while it shouldn't be illegal, it shouldn't be encouraged either. The employer has their right to free expression and voluntary association but they should strive/remain-vigilant to uphold the spirit of free speech and tolerance even if the law does not compel them to. For those with such self-discipline, their reward is access to the broader, richer market of rational peoples of every stripe.

>Posts like this play directly into Trump's hands.

I'm not sure that's true. Trump is a narcissist who wants to be loved. He's not trying to be hated.

What these posts do is create or reinforce cultural and political divide in a very ugly way. The message is that if you're a Trump supporter you're immoral and because you're immoral there's no way to compromise with you. The author may get brownie points from other members in his bubble, but his attitude is destructive and should be stopped. All you're doing is incentivising lying about political beliefs and further radicalizing conservatives.

Well put. I could write a 500-word post attacking Marco and all Hillary supporters for this behavior, but that's not going to change any minds.

We're much better off scrutinizing ideas rather than candidates who frequently change their ideas based on who's listening or their chances to get into/hold onto office.

If his support is unchanging, the "global elite" have nothing to worry about, as long as people show up to vote on 11/8.

Trump's support is way down from the summer. 538 had Trump and Clinton pretty much even at the end of July. Right now they predict an 87.4% chance of a Clinton victory, with about a 7% difference in the popular vote (which, for modern elections, is a pretty big margin).

The highly partisan nature of American politics puts a pretty hard floor on what any major candidate can expect for support. The Democrats or Republicans could run a half-eaten bagel for President and they would still get about 40% of the vote. It's no coincidence that this is about the level where Trump is polling right now.

Sure, posts like this just reinforce Trump supporters' beliefs. But so what? They're going to vote for him anyway. 80% of the electorate knew which way they were going to vote before the primaries even began. Nothing is going to sway them. What matters is convincing the 20% in the middle. They're rejecting Trump pretty hard right now, and pointing out how horrible he is certainly seems to be helping.

I am not sure why endorsement of a political candidate is sometimes equated with 100% parity on every single belief of that particular candidate.

It is entirely possibly that some people support Trump because of his crass and divisive rhetoric, and it's also entirely possible that some people support Trump because of his stance on trade. Is it really anyone's place to demand that another voter change the list of priorities that determine their choice of candidate? Does that not fundamentally alter the intended functioning of the way voting in a democracy ought to work?

I am all for constructive debate on why the policies and character of one candidate makes them more suitable for holding a particular government post, but to suggest that one ought to resort to intimidation, ostracism, marginalizing and other such methods because of an individual's personal choice to prioritize a candidate's agreeable stance on one issue, over a disagreeable stance of another, seems very dangerous to me.

During his campaign, President Obama famously claimed that he felt marriage was a union that ought to be between a man and a woman. Most would consider this to be a highly regressive view, yet voted for him because he was their preferred choice on a whole lot of issues. Campaign officials like David Axelrod later revealed that he took this position publicly for political expediency. Regardless of whether this is true, if one were to suggest marginalizing Obama voters in the way that is being suggested here, I am confident that there would be very little semblance of a community left.

Some particular beliefs are critical. If a candidate is perfect and a genius, but for example is against (for example) women voting, this is critical for endorsement, even though he may be perfect in every other sense.

Likewise, if your friend is from a different party than you, you may still be friends, but if he is a member of the KKK I guess that draws the line. Tolerance is not supposed to be infinite.

What people are finding out is that the line is different for everyone. And of course, its the election for President. Everything gets blown out of proportion.

Why? Unless the candidate will have the power to prevent women from voting he can hold any beliefs he wants in general.

There is a good reason why we have separation of power and why we have a complex political system in which even the president needs political capital to do things.

That said i think it's highly unlikely that there will be such hypothetical candidate that i can agree with on 99% 90% or even 50% of the issues and they'll be say a member of the KKK.

> Unless the candidate will have the power to prevent women from voting he can hold any beliefs he wants in general.

We don't know what powers the Executive Branch has now or will have. It evolves. FDR drastically expanded the power of the President, and he almost took over the Judicial Branch by appointing a bunch of new Supreme Court justices.

The next POTUS will appoint at least one Supreme Court justice and possibly more, which would give him/her enormous power over many decades of US law.

FDR asked Congress to expand the Supreme Court and institute an age limit for justices, but Congress said no. So that was a failure of expansion of Presidential power. But while FDR is a good example in a lot of other ways, most Presidents have managed to expand their power, but Congress can check them if they choose to do so. See the current situation with the Supreme Court, where the Senate is actually reducing the power of the President.

I think you also overestimate the control Presidents have over the justices they nominate, which is to say, none. Anthony Kennedy was supposed to be "Bork through the back door" when Reagan nominated him, but he's been one of the more liberal justices of the past 30 years. Or see how Roberts has, in a couple of key cases, broken with his fellow conservative GOP appointees.

Like the other poster mentioned FDR might be a good example for checks and balances rather than some unfettered expansion of power.

While we might not know what power the executive branch will have in 50 or 100 years we know what power it has now, and we know what power it can have in 4 years unless you really think "Emperor Trump" is a possibility.

Also while POTUS does appoint chief justices they still need to be confirmed by congress.

And regardless of what is going on neither branch of government can go against the constitution, at least not to any major extent before being reigned down.

P.S. It's more than likely that the US had presidents recently that had pretty negative opinions about a certain population including women, I would refer you to the Nixon tapes to see just how "disgusting" a president can be in a private environment. And while I'm fully aware that Nixon is one of the least loved presidents I don't think he was an outlier, just some one who got caught.

P.S. I don't support Trump, I'm not an American, I don't understand how Trump even got into the race in the first place yet alone became a nominee, but I do not support any type of political oppression and thought policing.

Some beliefs are critical, but the important part here is that the line is different for everyone.

I think a lot of people would support a 'perfect' presidential candidate who opposed women's suffrage, simply because they would never get that change through Congress. That's not an idle example, I've heard people say "sure, but Trump's crazy stuff won't pass and I like some of the things he could actually get through Congress."

Even the KKK example isn't totally convincing to me. Daryl Davis is the usual example - a black blues singer who got to know Klansmen and tried to talk them out of their positions. He had a hood collection from all his successes, and there's an argument that he effectively broke the Maryland clan.

Obviously that doesn't obligate anyone to stay friends with someone in the KKK. You don't need to tolerate things you find abhorrent. But I'm genuinely frightened by the recent push to limit how far it's acceptable to extend tolerance.

If someone is consistently pushing back on the ideas you have a problem with (as Davis did), I think it's harmful to demand that they stop associating with the people who hold those ideas.

> I am not sure why endorsement of a political candidate is sometimes equated with 100% parity on every single belief of that particular candidate.

Endorsement is one thing. Donating a massive amount of money is something entirely different. Not many people are willing to part with $1.25M for someone they don't fanatically support.

And either way, that's not the point. The point is that, while most candidates have deep flaws, Trump has flaws that cannot be overlooked or explained away by political differences.

These include: racism (for which he has lost lawsuits), advocating sexual assault, and suggesting that Hillary Clinton be assassinated.

$1.25M is less for Thiel than $100 is for most people. The absolute amount is meaningless, you have to normalize by wealth here.

It's still a lot of money for the campaign, isn't it?

The absolute amount is not meaningless because it has an effect in the real world.

It buys a certain amount of airtime, organizers' time, etc. Thiel said, "I'm not going to do X numbers of hours of work for you, but I'm going to donate them to your campaign."

That number of hours is staggeringly high, by the way: equivalent to 30+ years of full-time work by unskilled laborers.

> The absolute amount is not meaningless because it has an effect in the real world.

Right, I think GP was replying to your earlier statement that:

> Not many people are willing to part with $1.25M for someone they don't fanatically support.

Rather than trying to minimize the 1.25M

I'm replying to the general concept that it's a lot of money for a campaign. It's really not. While it's a good amount from a specific person, this specific person has a lot of money.

Hillary has multiple people over a million. These are private individuals too. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-16/leaked-list-hillary...

> Trump has flaws that cannot be overlooked or explained away by political differences

You are right, and many take this view. The issue is whether or not one ought to be marginalized for _not_ taking this view. If we are allowed to cherry pick the worst in a candidate (Trump offers a lot to pick from) and define their entire candidacy, and further extend this to say that all of those who support him, with either a vote or with money, must necessarily share in this horrible worldview, then I believe that to be an oversimplification.

What's effectively being said here is that this person has been immoral in the past, and there is a strong likelihood of him being immoral in the future. Those who are not willing to pre-judge him for the immoral actions he is likely to commit, should be ostracized. I think that's wrong.

You mean why are we giving a hard time to all those people who join the KKK just because they look good in white?

But seriously, I don't think the demand to "sever ties" with Thiel is the right (it does have the slight scent of a purge), or the smart one to make (it plays too much into the hands of those who are glad to jump on the "silencing opposing views" bandwagon). In fact, it pretty much ensures that the debate be diverted to that, especially when many in the crowd are, for one reason or another, fixated on their ideas of free speech. It isn't a hypothesis, either, but precisely what happened time and again in the relevant "community". But YC is influential in SV, where various racist and misogynistic ideas, for one reason or another, take hold on some from time to time, and yet YC has often stayed silent (or faint) on such issues, even when they claim to disagree with them, while being quite vocal about political issues like SOPA and visas that affect the powerful SV players.

> it plays too much into the hands of those who are glad to jump on the "silencing opposing views" bandwagon

Why frame it like this? It is "silencing opposing views", whether a bandwagon exists or not, so is bad in itself. You seem to imply the only problem is that people care about the issue - that's a good thing!

> in SV, where various racist and misogynistic ideas

SV is a liberal and leftist hotspot, so those ideas also take hold. Are you pondering why any none-liberal ideas sometimes take hold there? Maybe there a degree of subjectivity in it?

> yet YC has often stayed silent (or faint) on such issues

Possibly for good reason. There is a lot of animosity towards the tech crowd there, and beating them up about diversity in tech is a common pastime.

Remember the PG misquoting? He should have just refused to talk about the subject.

> It is "silencing opposing views"

Well, I'm not 100% sure that telling your billionaire buddy that since he's become a politician in a movement that you view as dangerous to your country and its people perhaps you shouldn't do business together for a while, qualifies as silencing his views. Still, I don't think it was right to demand this of YC.

> Are you pondering why any non-liberal ideas sometimes take hold there?

I'm not wondering why supremacist views sometimes takes hold anywhere, I'm just saying that perhaps people of influence who oppose those views may want to speak up a bit more vocally. Maybe it's even their duty.

> Possibly for good reason. There is a lot of animosity towards the tech crowd there

So Marie Antoinette's mistake wasn't not working in the interest of her people but in reminding them that they're hungry?

He hasn't "become a politician", it isn't proposed "for a while".

> I'm not wondering why supremacist views sometimes takes hold

We were talking about "various racist and misogynistic ideas", not "supremacist views". Are you talking about any view you see as subjectively racist/misogynist, or only specific ones?

> Marie Antoinette's mistake wasn't not working in the interest of her people

Antoinette's famous comment was glib and not intended to help, versus PGs sincere willingness to discuss sex issues; Also, she was a monarch is a brutal reign, if you want to compare than to the SV tech industry, go ahead.

> We were talking about "various racist and misogynistic ideas", not "supremacist views". Are you talking about any view you see as subjectively racist/misogynist, or only specific ones?

There is not much room for subjectivity when extreme views are concerned, certainly no more than in any other moral question. Either you think an equal power distribution among the races and the sexes is a desirable, high-priority goal or you don't. There's room for subjectivity in the means of achieving that goal and in its exact priority, but not in recognizing it as one. In any event, Trump's movement is certainly much more supremacist than any other mainstream and establishment conservative movement in recent history, and leaders at YC have said they regard it as abhorrent.

> Also, she was a monarch

Here we come to the question of whether government is the only external power affecting people's lives, or that there are a multitude of powers. It has been firmly established that the latter view is the correct one. The moral responsibility of an unelected and unconstitutional government to its subjects stems from the fact it has power over them (as it is not formally obligated to do a specific job); every other power has similar responsibility, from the same moral argument, to a degree commensurate with its influence.

> There is not much room for subjectivity when extreme views are concerned, certainly no more than in any other moral question

I'm not sure what you mean by "moral question". I mean the difficulty in deriving someones intent. for example, som people would see "voting for Trump" as "extreme view" and "racism".

> Either you think an equal power distribution among the races and the sexes is a desirable, high-priority goal or you don't

There so much about that that isn't binary. 'Priority' is one, continuous dimension. Implementation is another.

> Trump's movement is certainly much more supremacist

More supremacist? You don't think that's binary?

> Here we come to the question

No we don't, here we come to the conclusion that your comparison of the SV tech crowd to a 17th century French monarch is a poor one; You spun this out to another issue yourself.

> It has been firmly established

Again with the weasel terms. Who, when, how?!? Even 1 + 1 = 2 needs a basis

http://tinyurl.com/1and1is2

I think TechCrunch's breakdown[1] rather does a good job of summing up all the times Thiel has made it plain that he and Trump have a lot more in common that the SV technolibertarian set here seems willing to admit.

Thiel is providing material aid and support for a man whose policies are as close to fascism as makes no difference, and he himself has been openly critical of immigration, women's suffrage, freedom of the press, and even the very concept of democracy itself, not even to mention his past association with cryptofascists like Moldbug.

YC's idiotic line in the sand about "well, as long as it technically wasn't Thiel who said it" isn't even true. Thiel has sad plenty of ugly shit himself, even besides providing active material support to others who have.

[1] https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/17/trump-silicon-valley-surro...

Peter Thiel is doing just fine. If Y Combinator walked away from him, he would not be hurt or marginalized or ostracized in the least. This is not about persecuting people who vote for Trump.

But to support Trump with an enormous sum of money _after_ Trump has revealed himself to be willing to resort to borderline anti-Semitic slurs, to welcome the support of the white supremacy movement, to call for locking up his political opponent, to threaten the free press, to call for an end to Bill of Rights protections for accused criminals, to pre-emptively claim that the election is rigged, that voting fraud is rampant and to encourage his supporters to intimidate voters, to promise to ban an entire religion, and to brag about sexual assault in professional situations is to make a statement that these are the things Thiel is okay with advocating. Whatever other positions Trump might have that Thiel supports, these things are part of the package. Trump is not just a normal candidate. He's a true threat to our democracy.

He's a true threat to our democracy.

The responses he provokes are also a threat to democracy.

It's important not to become that which you oppose by calling for opponents to be punished in some way (e.g. be locked up, or lose their job) because of their beliefs.

He's doing his best to convince people that the results of the election will be fraudulent. He has hinted that his supporters might want to assassinate his opponent. That's what a threat to democracy looks like.

Saying that a business might want to reconsider who they work with because of the political donations made by a partner is not remotely a threat to democracy.

" is to make a statement that these are the things Thiel is okay with advocating."

Clinton supporters are never held to this standard.

No one calls on Clinton supporters to publicly disavow her statement about the "basket of deplorables". Clinton also shipped classified information to her basement server and destroyed thousands of records when under subpoena. No one claims that Clinton supporters are supporting this behavior. Indeed, it seems just fine for Clinton voters to support her despite her activities which were, at best, "extremely reckless." Clinton supporters can say that, despite her flaws, they will vote for her.

But for some reason, any Trump voter automatically supports every bad thing he ever did.

Because those things aren't even close to being on the same level.

> This is not about persecuting people who vote for Trump.

No, if you look at the arguments being made and the people making the arguments, it's clear that "this" in the larger sense is exactly about ostracising people who support Trump. Thiel himself is just the target of the moment.

Shame on you for blaming Y Combinator. If it was 1.25 million for Clinton you would probably praise Y Combinator, no? This feels more like a clash between your personal political preferences and Mr Thiels's. You are just blaming Y Combinator to inflate this story, trying to get more people on the Clinton side. Shame on you!

Why do people keep making this false equivalence between the two options? One candidate has repeatedly taken racist and sexist stances, as well as demeaned those who are handicapped (and honestly, the list goes on and on). If people don't take a stand against this type of thing, it is a tacit acceptance.

The other candidate is corrupt, more politically savvy, and a career politician.

Also racism and sexism is a subjective issue, asking people to take a stand against "this kind of thing" without specifics is playing into the political banter.

A large proportion of Trump supporters are not for Donald Trump the human being and all the things he's done. They're for the Republican party being in power; they're against Clinton for her faults (real or imagined); they're for someone who isn't a mainstream candidate being in charge for once. There's all kinds of reasons to support the GOP Presidential candidate that many people may see as more important than the insane, racist, sexist things Trump has said and done.

(I say this as a left-leaning guy by Canadian standards. Believe me, I'm terrified you guys might actually elect that monster.)

Right, but a large portion of supporters are not donating over a million dollars. I'd expect that person to be for Donald Trump, rather than some vague wish for republican values.

Why?

I've traditionally associated more with Republicans than Democrats. Like many others around here, I'm fiscally conservative but socially liberal. The Republican party's stance on social issues, especially marriage equality and lack of tolerance in general, has been chronically infuriating to me. I believe Thiel was the first openly gay convention speaker in the history of the Republican party. He received a standing ovation. That was a major moment that went unnoticed by many. But not by me. Consider for a moment that there may be more going on here than meets the eye. Thiel may be quietly doing more to move many old school rank-and-file Republicans out of the past and into the future than anyone else this cycle, and that's a positive development for the entire country.

There was that moment with Theil's speech, but there was also the moment in Trump's acceptance speech where he said that we were going to protect the lives of all LGBTQ Americans, and he got a big round of applause from the crowd, and then he added, “And I have to say, as a Republican, it is so nice to hear you cheering for what I just said. Thank you.” It was a pretty amazing moment.

https://www.washingtonblade.com/2016/07/22/trump-makes-histo...

You're right: many people are supporting the top of the GOP ticket out of loyalty to the GOP, or because they're pro-life. They don't support Donald Trump.

But Thiel does. We know this, because Thiel got up on stage at the Republican National Convention, in a nationally televised speech, and proclaimed to the nation that Donald Trump was the best candidate in the race --- and the only "honest" one. Thiel's support for Trump is not in question.

... touché...

This election is generally perceived as choice between 2 bad persons, 2 bad leaders, or choosing lesser evil if you prefer.

Some people have higher preference of political correctness, smooth behavior and strong, likable speeches. Some feel bad/desperate enough to don't give a f__k about this and rather want to see a change in current not-so-bright-for-them situation. This kind of situation happens very often, all around the globe where you have elections.

Personally, choosing between spoiled amoral brat who didn't achieve much without daddy's cash and influence, and Clinton which is arrogant lawyer (where is the common lawyer hate when it matters?) apparently too deep in corporate pockets to ever see or solve anything real... well, I guess I would just pick a candidate that doesn't have a chance.

luckily not US citizen, so this is just outside view

Taking a stand against those sexist and racist stances (which several prominent members of YC have individually very strongly) does not preclude also taking a stand against attempts to ostracise and vilify anyone who supports the republican candidate. Should the US take citizenship away from the 40% of citizens who would vote for Trump because they are supporting someone beyond the pale?

Your position undermines the very democracy it purports to defend.

Many very smart, educated, and informed people I know believe that Hillary has effectively monetized public service/political influence and is the most corrupt major party nominee to run for the Presidency in modern history. If people don't take a stand against that type of thing, isn't that tacit acceptance as well? Pick your poison, so to speak. Hillary's supporters will argue that she's not corrupt and has been investigated and cleared of all charges, just as Trump's supporters will argue that he has a 40 year history of helping women and minorities shatter glass ceilings in the construction industry, and therefore is likely not a racist or a misogynist, rather just an ''equal opportunity asshole''. I think this election cycle is much more about voting against the candidate you hate, than for the candidate you love, which should make election day all the more exciting since the normal polling and turnout models could be totally off the mark.

i agree, and believe many trump voters will privately and reluctantly vote for him, and publicly say they voted for someone else for this very reason.

i also believe many others will vote for trump simply to push the country toward a breakup of the 2-party system into a 3 or 4-party system. they very well could have voted for bernie if that were an option.

I was told in another thread that was "Shy Tory Factor"[1]. I get the feeling polling is going to need to really look at what they do since they got Brexit and 2014 US wrong.

1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11977911

In 30 years of public life, there hasn't been a single shred of evidence to back up that claim. These people you know are sadly misinformed.

I think the point is that in context, that doesn't matter. If everyone believed that, Hillary would be polling at 70%.

Starting an argument from "this is ok because we're right and they're wrong" means that you have to expect the other side to use the exact same argument. I'd rather not see us go down the road of firing people for supporting popular candidates, if only because everyone can do it.

So Clinton Cash is 0% truth then? https://www.amazon.com/Clinton-Cash-Foreign-Governments-Busi...

"hasn't been a single shred."

http://www.g-a-i.org/u/2016/08/Report-Skolkvovo-08012016.pdf

Worth pointing out that GAI was co-founded by a STEPHEN K. BANNON which, coincidentally, is the same STEPHEN K. BANNON that runs Breitbart and is currently the campaign chairman for DONALD J. TRUMP.

Possibly not the most unbiased of sources, I think.

Do you have an actual comment on the content of the report, or just low level FUD about its source?

This comment is actually pretty hilarious given the fact that Teneo Holdings, mentioned in the report, was founded by ex Bill Clinton staffers, and had Bill Clinton and Tony Blair as 2 of it's original 3 advisors. Huma Abedin is presently on the Teneo payroll.

If those sorts of ties between people are problematic to you, then you must ABSOLUTELY HATE the Clintons, because the same type of arrangement is how literally everyone close to them got there.

Every political research product is funded by someone with an agenda. GAI, Brookings, Cato, Heritage, take your pick.

Funding should always be considered, but is not cause to discount otherwise valid methodologies and findings.

> hasn't been single shred of evidence to back up that claim

saying stuff like this doesn't help your cause. it really, really doesn't.

I think you must mean Unassailable Proof. There's certainly plenty of Bayesian evidence.

Because obviously not everyone sees it the way you do?

One candidate has repeatedly been dishonest and suspected of corruption while in government previously (and honestly, the list goes on and on). If people don't take a stand against this type of thing, it is a tacit acceptance.

No it is not tacit acceptance. People weigh pros and cons of each candidate and make a choice. No donation or endorsement implies 100% allegiance, only an overall preference. I'm sure Thiel thinks Trump is fairly idiotic. "But he's a sexist" doesn't change anything even if it were true.

Anyone is free to shun people for their publicly stated political stance but any particular policies or personal attributes of Trump or anyone are not in a special category that is shun-worthy.

I wouldn't support Trump but Hillary's fealty to Wall Street and die-hard neoliberalism ("hemispheric FTA, etc.") affects hundreds of millions of people whereas whomever Trump groped affected maybe 50 people.

And no, turning it into a symbolic issue in a Presidential election isn't going to help prevent it happening to the women in your life.

For all the fearmongering over him (and let's face it some of it has been absurd) I think he'd end up being a lame duck president who doesn't do very much except primp, preen and massage his ego. Assuming that's true (he never has been particularly well connected to reality and the president can't do an awful lot unilaterally), that might actually be the preferable option.

Ironically many of the people who were against Bernie because "he wasn't realistic" and what he wanted "isn't achieveable" seem intent on forgetting that now that an orange attached to a blonde mop is running for president.

This is serious question-begging, though.

Most of Trump's supporters don't accept that he's racist, or generally sexist, or the other charges being made. The ones I've talked to largely believe that he's just rude, and sometimes directs that through traits like race, gender, and disability. On policy, they would say that opposing things like illegal immigration isn't actually racism.

Laugh at that if you want, say they're stupid, but realize they're saying the exact same thing about you and the claim that Hillary is dangerously corrupt. "No she isn't, it's just..." - same structure.

My point is that you can't rescue a stance of "fire Trump supporters" by saying he's the bad guy. If that were consensus reality, the election would be over.

So you're absolutely opening the door to retribution from people who think the same way in reverse. That's exactly why the value of having a norm against punishing people for holding popular opinions, no matter how divisive.

> Most of Trump's supporters don't accept that he's racist, or generally sexist, or the other charges being made.

I wonder if we have enough evidence to reach that conclusion? Respectfully, I'm not sure you've talked to enough supporters to generalize about the whole group.

Speaking only for myself, if I end up voting for one of those two, it will be for Trump. I accept the strong possibility that every one of the negative personality traits he's shown are genuine.

I think in policy matters he's basically a wildcard. But I find Clinton so undesirable as a candidate that I would prefer a wildcard.

Does this mean I approve in any way of Trump's apparent personal characteristics? Absolutely not.

This is a reasonable point.

I should probably have said "don't accept that he's racist or sexist in a way that precludes voting for him". The claim I meant to make is that most of his supporters are not voting for him because they feel that racism and sexism are good. That claim, I think, carries no matter what the breakdown between "he doesn't mean it", "he's racist but I'm not", and "he means it but I don't think it's racist". Certainly, I've seen all three assertions.

My broader point was simply that "but Trump is worse, false equivalence" is absurdly circular reasoning. There are plenty of people (yourself included?) who could make the same charge against Clinton.

For myself, I wouldn't want to be accused of 'tacit acceptance' of the stances of any of the candidates. Everyone running (third parties included) has at least one view or policy that I find abhorrent, so I get personally uncomfortable about the idea that voting for someone means accepting their stances.

Yes we do. Grab em in the pussy = sexist attitude. Nationwide stop and frisk in the inner cities = racist. Central Park 5 fiasco - also racist. Denying black people housing in the 70s - racist too!

Just look up his behavior on the Central Park 5 (and he still thinks they're guilty, even after all the evidence). Also his nationwide stop-and-frisk desires. None of that has to do with illegal immigration and it's very racist.

> One candidate has repeatedly taken racist and sexist stances

I dislike Trump immensely, but this narrative that this guy is OBVIOUSLY a racist, homophobe, a misogynist whatever, is not good for your country. Every election the DNC dog-whistles that the GOP candidate is all those things in order to discredit their opposition. For example, Romney was a flake but generally a decent guy and yet he was spun as a misogynist!! He's not a misogynist. Trump is a narcissist and a huckster, but he's not a racist. I'm not even sure he's a misogynist either.

You cannot disparage your opposition like that. It's unproductive because it entrenches supporters in their views and even radicalizes them. You're basically alienating 100 million people from mainstream politics - do you really really want to do that?

Stick to the issues.

It's worse than that. Trump is existentially dangerous for the following reasons:

1) Questioning the legitimacy of the electoral process without evidence. This could turn the US into a powder keg if he keeps it up past election day.

2) Rejecting nuclear non-proliferation and the stability of international alliances, paired with a volatile and immature temperament, could lead to the nuclear clock ticking to midnight.

3) Proposing the blacklist people based solely on a religious test. I'm not religious, but if there was one thing I learned in Hebrew school, is that we must never again allow this.

4) Obliquely threatening his political opponent with violence and directly threatening to jail his political opponent. Does this sound like a candidate from a first world country?

This is equivocation. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are in no sense equivalent. In fact, Trump is so historically bad that leading figures of his own party are disowning him. Major donors are clawing back contributions. The RNC even halted its support.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/rnc-halts-all-victory-...

You could almost say the establishment hates him, eh?

You stole the words right out of my mouth. This is no place for pushing a political agenda.

If it was $1.25 million for Clinton, there would have been no complaint. If it was $1.25 million for Mitt Romney, or John McCain, or even George W Bush, there would have no complaint. Donald Trump is a different and unique circumstance, as Sam Altman and Paul Graham repeatedly claim in their writings, but do not follow through with in their actions.

> If it was $1.25 million for Mitt Romney, or John McCain, or even George W Bush, there would have no complaint

Are you kidding ? when Condoleezza Rice got a seat on DropBox's board, people here on HN very much complained and said how they were going to "drop" Dropbox because someone on its board was on the wrong political side.

I'm not republican but it's pretty clear in most US tech circles,especially in the Silicon Valley, you just cannot be republican or people will be out to get you. Trump or not, that's a fact and it's ridiculous.

Because they are both the same, right? Just opposite, right?

To me, these attitudes (and their general acceptance + support) are just as worrying as Donald's own attitudes and supporters.

One of the strangest things about human nature--at least that I've seen--is that when we vehemently resist something we detest we often produce its mirror image.

It's honestly extremely frightening to think that making a political donation to a major-party candidate you support could cost you your livelihood in this country. Those are not the principles America was founded on. (It's not even like McCarthyism anymore where they were persecuting a small minority party. We want to blacklist people for being __Republican__? Really?)

This is exactly how Democracy becomes eroded and one party systems emerge. And the fact that more people don't see that is quite chilling.

What's that old American saying? Something like: "I disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." That's the America I grew up in. What happened to it?

We've been headed toward one party statehood for awhile. The American project has failed.

"Democratic politicians are the ruling class’s prime legitimate representatives and that because Republican politicians are supported by only a fourth of their voters while the rest vote for them reluctantly, most are aspirants for a junior role in the ruling class. In short, the ruling class has a party, the Democrats. But some two-thirds of Americans — a few Democratic voters, most Republican voters, and all independents — lack a vehicle in electoral politics."

http://spectator.org/39326_americas-ruling-class-and-perils-...

I was really hoping that Gödel was wrong when he said that he found a logical loophole in the constitution that would allow for a dictatorship. But I believe we are figuring out what that loophole was.

Living through communism in an eastern european country and getting the real freedom to vote and support who we want changed everything .

And this is why I simply cannot understand this. Educated people from countries which I associate with a strong democracy are asking, no, demanding political discrimination. This is illegal in any civilized country and for obvious reasons. And they do it in the name of progress too!

I must control my impulse of getting angry and calling names, but the fact is you are ignorant spoiled children who take your freedom for granted and would trade it for simple feelings of holier than though.

I am 100% in favor of Sam Altman's decision for the following reasons: 1. Trump is offensive, racist, sexist and a terrible human being all around. I am Mexican, and I hate his guts and everything about him. However, I believe in what Voltaire once smartly said "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". I do not agree at all with Peter Thiel's decision to support Trump in the RNC or with money, but I defend his right to express himself. 2. Sam Altman and Paul Graham have done a lot to defeat Trump and elect Hillary as president. One of their part time partners supports Trump, that is not indicative of YC's political view. 3. Peter Thiel is a business man, and investor therefore that is what I focus on, his book which is fantastic and his work on facebook, can't judge him unfairly on everything, just because he supports Trump. He has a brilliant business mind and that is why he is a part time partner at YC and that is in the arena he should be judged. I am strongly in favor of free speech. Peter should be scrutinized and debated, not fired. Sam Altman does not deserve any nonsense because of this.

This is a disgrace to punish someone just because they have different view. Kudos to Y Cominator to not cave in. Peter Thiel is free to support and donate to whoever candidate he feels strong about. If you don't like it, donate to the other candidate. Dragging it into business and people life is so Mccarthyism.

Should all views be accepted as equally valid?

Isn't the right to hold your own judgement the heart of freedom? And what is that judgement if it cannot be expressed? If it cannot have consequences?

Sure, we must protect the expression and dissemination of thoughts and views as key to democracy but when it comes to implementation of those expressions and thoughts we also have a duty under democracy to vigorously push our own judgements.

> Should all views be accepted as equally valid?

Whether a view is valid or not is irrelevant. Who's the judge for validity anyway? And you don't have to accept certain views you don't like. The problem is when you want to suppress views you don't like, to the extent of oppression.

>Who's the judge for validity anyway?

The individual and, in a democracy, individuals in aggregate, the majority with specific exceptions, of course, that protect a person's Right of expression.

To remove from people the right to judge for themselves is the ultimate assault on freedom and liberty.

>when you want to suppress views you don't like, to the extent of oppression.

There are a lot of slippery words in that sentence. What is suppression? Is speaking out against a view vigorously, suppression? Is working to prevent a view from becoming policy suppression? Is judging a person's character for holding a certain view suppression? Is acting against the implementation of one's views and agenda if one does not agree with it suppression? Is judging an individual or a group by the company they keep suppression? No. To all of the above, no.

Not all views have equal merit and deserve equal treatment.

Working against an odious agenda and to counter undesirable views (within the law) is not oppression, it is an obligation and a duty in a democratic society.

> To remove from people the right to judge for themselves is the ultimate assault on freedom and liberty.

I think we are in agreement here.

> Should all views be accepted as equally valid?

> Not all views have equal merit and deserve equal treatment.

These are just a pretext to suppress views that are deemed invalid, odious, and undesirable. And conveniently any "invalid" view happens to be the ones you don't like.

The hallmark of a democratic society is to ensure opposing views can be spoken without fear of repercussion.

However, the right to express yourself doesn't mean the right to harass and bully the people expressing the opposing views.

Oppression happens when you bully people just because their view. Oppression happens when you sabotage their work/job/career/business just because their view. Oppression happens when you harass their friends/family/relationship just because their view.

If you want to advocate your view and policy, state exactly how great they are and what benefits they bring. If you want to express how terrible the opposing view, state exactly how bad they are. Don't bully the people. Express your opposition to their VIEW, not the individual.

>Oppression happens when you sabotage their work/job/career/business just because their view.

I would agree with you except for one thing: money is political power under our current system. If someone is allowed to use their market power to influence our democracy, it is perfectly valid to use market power to oppose that influence. It is a double edged sword.

That's why we have election rules attempting to restrict money influence in the system for BOTH sides, or at least to make it a level playing field.

Targeting people's personal money just because their view is an oppression. It is an easy slippery slope to go down. Income/money/work enable them to express their view. What's next? Their home certainly enable them to express their view. How about their food?

If you want to take money out of politics, work on campaign finance reform. And enforce existing laws to stamp out any violation.

Thiel is donating millions to influence an election. I don't know where the slippery slope is but we're nowhere near the edge.

If Thiel has used his market power to express his view, then so can the rest of the market actors can use the same power to express theirs. Individuals should be able to use all available information to decide to spend their limited resources supporting. Thiel has decided to send a very strong signal to the market. People and organizations that decide to associate with Thiel also provide information to the market.

Should market actors completely ignore this specific class of information when making decisions? Knowing that resources that flow in Thiel's direction will be used to work against my preferred government policies, policies that may very well have a negative impact on my wellbeing, should I allow my resources to flow that direction anyway? It seems foolish and arbitrary to ignore that segment of reality.

Shame on you, Marco Arment, for calling for someone's head because you don't like their political position. Whatever happened to the land of "I disapprove of what you say but I'll defend to death your right to say it" or "Give me freedom or give me death"? Or it is, as it turns out for you, that it's the land of the free only for people who agree with you?

I'm not a Trump supporter, but I applaud YC's decision not to sever ties with someone because of their personal opinion. And Marco Arment should feel ashamed for trying to oust people with different political opinion than his and undermine the cherished principle of freedom of speech.

Why do people need to drag their personal opinions into business matters?

Demanding someone gets fire/removed just because they have a different political opinion than you is ridiculous.

Political "opinion" in this case isn't a bubblegum flavor preference.

The presidency of the U.S. isn't a personal matter.

As a matter of fact, it is ;) A system where everyone can personally choose their leaders without external pressure or control is called a democracy.

This is really strange attribute of democracy, that if majority decides (informed or by uninformed that decision be), one can flip from democracy to (let's say) autocracy, but then you dont get to vote in next election if you change your mind, because there will be none.

The original intent of the 2nd amendment (right to bear arms) was to void a scenario like this, by giving enough military power to the people to make impossible for an elected government to switch to autocracy / dictatorship / ... without the approval of the population.

Wether this amendment is still needed, and if it's effective considering the evolution of military technology, is open to discussion, but at least the original constitution tried to avoid this.

It's probably not the same people but it's funny (in kind of a sad sort of way) that you have people arguing for deregulation because you can vote with your wallet if you're morally opposed to something, and for everyone keeping their political opinions out of business at the same time.

Edit: Nevermind. I just went and read some of your other comments out of curiosity and you're a libertarian. It's exactly the same people.

I am not sure if it is ridiculous. It depends. It's about a line that everyone has to draw and to set. And this also what Marco is trying to mention in his post I guess.

Let's take a more extreme example from history, just for pointing out that there is a line: I hope we could agree that supporting the NSDAP is as far over such a line as imaginable.

Not comparing anyone in this context with the NSDAP, just pointing out that there is such a line, and hiding behind "political free opinion" doesn't help to avoid hard decisions.

It's good that you aren't comparing this current context with our modern view on the NSDAP.

Mainly because pressuring others into supporting a certain candidate through non-political means really is ridiculous and a deeply concerning attitude in democratic societies.

Wait a second, maybe I can't follow you here. Are you saying that there should be no consequences for anyone no matter who someone is political supporting, because it is in political context?

If so, two questions: - What if someone is supporting someone in none political context (which is hard, cause kind of nearly everything could be defined as such), does then someone have to stand for her/his public behaviour and face disagreement or consequences? - What if someone supports politically the KKK, the IS or any other organisation or party, that you might not agree with?

How about a much more important thing in our constitution: Free speech. Does free speech mean I can say and publicly announce anything, without having to face consequences?

> Are you saying that there should be no consequences for anyone no matter who someone is political supporting, because it is in political context?

Not at all. I was inplying that the consequences should be political as well.

If your children aren't your opinion, try to engage in valuable conversation instead of cutting their allowance. If your neighbor puts up a sign for a candidate you don't like, put up your own sign and don't try to pressure his employer into making him leave.

Democratic societies actively require political variation. Using your physical or economic strength or maybe your status to make people do or state things they don't like is blatantly uncivil.

I'm not an expert on US constitutional law & procedure so you might need to make your own research on their legal specifics in this certain case, but in most western setups I'd bet it's not a very good idea to believe in a legal right which might allow you to publicly announce "anything". But I don't see its relation to our topic here, I think it's probably not essential.

Murder and sexual assault aren't just matters of politics. Peter Thiel has endorsed someone who has advocated both crimes in public.

Ed said it[1] better than I could, so I'll quote him:

This is a long way of saying to the people who support Trump (and therefore would never read this) that "Let's agree to disagree and keep being friends" is a poor strategy this year. However you've managed to rationalize it in your head, supporting someone so openly and enthusiastically racist, xenophobic, and flat-out mean says a lot about you.

We are long, long past the point of pretending that support for Trump, let alone actual material and financial backing, is a matter of mere "politics" (as if that in itself is some harmless affectation).

Peter Thiel took one look at the failing campaign of a vociferous racist, mysogynist, authoritarian, anti-democratic fascist, and said "I'll give over a million dollars to him."

How can we trust the business and social acumen of a person who makes that kind of decision? Who faced with a losing candidate will throw good money after bad. Who faced with a business landscape that is crawling, desperately, into finally opening its doors to women and minorities, happily funds a man who says you can "grab [women] by the pussy," that "we ought to build a wall" to keep out Hispanics, and openly campaigns for barring Muslims from the country (who, I might point out, are statistically as likely to be South Asian as Arabic, a demographic hardly unrepresented in tech).

You wouldn't find it so bizarre that a man who has swastikas tattooed on his face had trouble finding a job, why do we find it so bizarre that a man who has done far more actual material harm might not be appealing to a business partner?

[1] http://www.ginandtacos.com/2016/10/17/the-difference-between...

In this case those personal opinions are widely publicised, and reflect -- rightly or wrongly -- on Y Combinator. At that point it does become a matter of business, as the backlash may end up hurting Y Combinator's business (negative press, founders not applying, investors not willing to work with it, etc.).

and it's not even a "real" political view. thiel's said all along he views trump as disruptive to a government that's broken. it has very little to do with the positions people get so worked up over.

There are some brilliant people working in this industry whose politics I abhor. That doesn't mean that we can't, don't, or won't work well together, or even that we have to leave politics at the door. I've had some great conversations with people who I strongly disagree with politically -- frustrating, yes, but still highly interesting and worthwhile for mutual understanding.

This trend of naming, shaming, and excluding political opponents has got to end. We've been here before (even as recently as the GWB / War on Terror era), and it is absolutely toxic for an open and democratic society.

I agree with you in general, but Trump is uniquely toxic. Every day he says more and more hateful and disturbing things, and threatens our open and democratic society with his constant railing against the rigged election and encouragement to supporters to go intimidate voters in typically-Democratic districts. This is not just a political difference. Trump is truly dangerous.

So, we'll leave it up to you to decide then? When someone is uniquely toxic or not?

It's too easy to see the opposition as "uniquely dangerous." As I recall, the left actually believed that George W was going to start World War 3 and declare himself dictator. And Obama was going to permanently take over major corporations and institute communism.

I'm not a Trump supporter, but all the YC shaming is terrible. You're advocating for dictatorship where only one political view matters.

Wikipedia: "A dictatorship is a type of authoritarianism, in which politicians regulate nearly every aspect of the public and private behavior of citizens."

so much fear of reprisal that you have to qualify with "I'm not a Trump supporter". political discourse here is as bad or worse than it is anywhere.

>so much fear of reprisal

That's a bit dramatic. It wasn't fear of reprisal, it was disclosure of bias.

This is exactly what's happening with today's political correctness.

I need to watch the daily news so politicians and news anchors can disseminate the naughty words of the week. Otherwise, I might unintentionally let the 'wrong' thing slip at work and get fired.

Being a blond haired, blue eyed Caucasian programmer, my manager is constantly looking for a reason to replace me since the company implemented it's diversity program. I'm one of the highest producing employees and I feel discriminated against, but it's politically incorrect to state this.

There's an interesting dichotomy when people talk about this election. The same folks who accuse Trump of being divisive, then demand folks break ties with all Trump supporters.

I detest Trump, but I understand a certain aspect of his followers. (I know several intelligent Trump followers. They do exist.) Their core premise is, "We want to push Reset on the crony capitalism in Washington, and if it takes a terminally flawed candidate to destroy the establishment, so be it." In this light, things like "He's never done the job before", "He's a Pervert", "He lies a bunch" don't hurt him. And when Republican leadership abandons him, it strengthens his cause. (Yes, there's racism too, but let's leave that to the side for now) Yes, Trump is reprehensible, but you can appreciate that the disaffected are rallying behind him with "Let's not have 4 more years of the rich bailing themselves out and bringing cheap competition in for our jobs."

YC can join the Facebook drama queens who unfriend people with opposing political views, but that's childish. Better to engage the opposition, and allow people to support whatever politicians they want out in the open.

I disagree with the author of this article. If anything, this article just shows how powerful the media is and how it can influence people to have such extreme thoughts about things which they actually know very little about.

Trump is not guilty of sexual harassment - That is hearsay; media propaganda. Yes, he said nasty things, but it doesn't mean anything about his ability to do a good job as a president.

I think he is probably a rotten person, but I think everyone in politics is just as rotten anyway. To pretend that Hillary Clinton is a saint is wrong - Personally, I think that she is every bit as rotten as Trump - But she is really good at hiding/suppressing it.

Most Trump supporters don't want to vote for him because they think he is a nice person (and I'm sure that Thiel doesn't either) - They just think that he is capable of doing a great job as a president and they think that this is more important than his personality.

Hi Marco.

I disagree with you for a couple reasons.

(1) Seek to understand, then seek to be understood. If we want to eliminate misguided beliefs, convince anyone who thinks sexual assault and racism is okay, etc., you need to first understand them, and have them feel as though they are understood. It's a basic rule of effective communication. No one will listen to your criticisms of their arguments if they are not convinced that you have understood what they are saying and show empathy towards their position. So, a dialogue wherein all parties work together to develop shared understandings will be far more effective than the demonisation of a section of society.

(2) Supporting Trump doesn't necessarily mean Peter supports Trump's more bigoted and/or inappropriate views. This is Peter Thiel we're talking about. Peter gets excited by thinking differently to other people. If thinking differently were a sex act, it would be Peter's fetish. Peter would support a candidate only if he believes it's what the country needs to help bring back a time of growth and optimism that he thinks has been lost long ago (see: Zero to One). Now, remember, just because Peter believes something, doesn't mean that it's right (see: Clarium Capital).

So, it is my view that Sam is right in supporting the sharing of vastly different ideas, views and understandings. Thiel hasn't specifically supported any of Trump's shameful views, as you aptly describe them, so his only 'crime' is to believe that a protectionist moron (he'll perceive him differently) can do anything positive for the country - a belief that might be mistaken, but is by no means a crime or something to cause shame.

Stop demonising Trump supporters. You'll never convince idiots of anything by addressing them as such.

Non American here. Inability to even comprehend why calls to punish one person because it supports option that I don't like (that's allegedly full of ism-s) equates to me being as narrow minded as the side I am attacking... is very dangerous. Marco is not doing any favor to his favorite this way. Narrow mindedness, no matter how well packaged, stays narrow mindedness. Dragging YC in this is again just a reflection of inability to see how this looks on the outside.

As we say in this part of the world "just don't defend me any more please".

You make excellent points. Marco is not alone in this. There is a subculture in the US that is so full of their own self righteousness, they are unable to take a fair look at themselves. No matter where we sit on the political spectrum, we as a larger culture need to take this more seriously. Thank you for offering your perspective as an outsider.

Peter Thiel's support for Trump seems instrumental and not an end-in-itself[1]. I disagree with it and think it's stupid. But if he was my business partner and told me that he had good reasons to think that the long-term utility of a Trump president outweighs the unpleasantness and negative side-effects then I would argue with him and try to talk him out of it. Thinking about it in this way, shunning him seems to be an extreme thing to do.

[1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/peter-thiel-trump-ha...

I'm no Trumpist and no fan of Thiel, but I believe anyone can place their vote where-ever they want.

I may not agree with him but I would fight to the end for his right to vote for Trump if he wants.

To be fair, OP doesn't take issue with who Thiel is voting for.

Did we read the same post?

>Thiel, a non-employee (a “part-time partner”), is directly supporting Donald Trump at a massive scale — over a million dollars! — after we’ve learned even more of Trump’s horrendous statements, positions, and past actions than we could’ve ever imagined.

I'm not sure but there is no mention of voting anywhere in the article.

Fine, swap "vote" for "support". Allowing people to vote for candidates but not support them is just mincing words.

It's really not. You don't "vote" for someone so hard you personally become an important part of the campaign.

Nobody has a problem with whomever Thiel is voting for or wants to restrict his ability to vote in anyway.

This isn't issue and you pretending to be merely derails the discussion.

It's like the Russian gay propaganda law: nobody has a problem with you being secretly gay.

Conservatives have a right to their own set of values, like anti-abortion, faith-based education issues, smaller government, reduced taxes, etc., and they have a right to back whatever candidate aligns with their values. I'm a liberal but it is amazing to me to read these types of articles, from other liberals with zero tolerance for the alternative viewpoint. There should not even be a decision to be made here. It takes all kinds of people or else it would not be America. It is not acceptable to persecute people based on their political choices.

Of course they have that right. Others have the right to criticize them for exercising it.

The issue here is also not Trump's supposed conservatism (which I, frankly, doubt heavily), but that he brags about sexual assault and is advocating for some pretty fascist shit.

YC states Trump's words would get him kicked out of YC. Color me baffled as to why spending over a million dollars to support those words isn't considered similarly bad (if not worse).

I think a lot of people would take issue with equating Trump's racist campaign with their conservative values.

Political debate in the US has traditionally taken place in a framework of shared values. Some of these are: you accept electoral defeat, you nominate people with a basic minimum of human decency, and overt bigotry is not acceptable.

Within that framework, people have sharp disagreements over issues, some of them life-or-death (like abortion). But the framework is something that was sacrosanct, until this election.

The problem many people, including conservatives, have with Trump is that he breaks basic norms around how our democracy should work, and represents a threat to it. That's why Thiel's vocal support for his candidacy is so troubling. It's not just a case of someone whose politics I disagree with, it's someone financing the destruction of the whole apparatus those politics take place within.

> and overt bigotry is not acceptable.

I'm scared to ask- is this really true?

I'd personally like to think we've gotten better as a society over the years.

Clumsy on my part- I was asking historically.

Pardoned!

is hidden bigotry more acceptable?

Thank you for posting this. I'm also a liberal, but when such politically divergent people as Ralph Nader and Rush Limbaugh are (shockingly) speaking out against the same kinds of social disease, it's time to take notice. Something has gone very wrong on the left.

The number of indirections here is incredible and I'm amazed nobody has pointed it out yet. In essence the post says: Shame on YC because

- a non-employee / part time partner of YC has

- supported a presidential candidate who

- has, a decade ago, said things that (besides reflecting badly on his character)

- if realized in action

- would constitute sexual harassment

Now if it was practice at YC to sexually harass people I'd say yea, shame on YC. But this is ridiculous. If we were to accept indirect arguments like in the post then it would be equally valid to say:

- Shame on the HN community because it

- Supports a site operated by YC which

- ...

from: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/08/the-slate-star-codex-po...

2. The anchor of a major news network donates lots of money to organizations fighting against gay marriage, and in his spare time he writes editorials arguing that homosexuals are weakening the moral fabric of the country. The news network decides they disagree with this kind of behavior and fire the anchor.

a) This is acceptable; the news network is acting within their rights and according to their principles

b) This is outrageous; people should be judged on the quality of their work and not their political beliefs

12. The principal of a private school is a member of Planned Parenthood and, off-duty, speaks out about contraception and the morning after pill. The board of the private school decides this is inappropriate given the school’s commitment to abstinence and moral education and asks the principal to stop these speaking engagements or step down from his position.

a) The school board is acting within its rights; they can insist on a principal who shares their values

b) The school board should back off; it’s none of their business what he does in his free time

If you answer these questions differently, you need to try to apply your so-called principles consistently. This article is bullshit for the same reason the Brendan Eich affair was bullshit--if the situation were reversed, the same people calling for Brendan Eich's head would have been ardently defending someone who had been fired for donating to marijuana legalization or something. As long as he's not discriminating or smoking weed in the workplace, etc., YOU SHOULD NOT PERSECUTE SOMEONE FOR HIS BELIEFS or how they affect his political contributions.

Sigh. People keep bringing up Brendan Eich. What happened there is very simple: a good chunk of Mozilla PR and marketing is about freedom. Software and online freedom, yes, but the word "freedom" is used a fair bit. Eich monetarily supported a cause that aimed to take away freedom for a certain class of people. This is incongruent for the face of an organization that has freedom one of its core messages.

Mozilla is fairly unique in tech world in this regard. Nearly all other companies don't really talk about freedom. If Eich was the CEO of any of those other companies, his donation would not (and should not) have mattered. If Eich had remained CTO of Mozilla, his donation would not have mattered either, as the CTO is not the face of the organization. The CEO's beliefs, however, do need to align with the core messaging of the company.

As for those who say that in 2008, opposing gay marriage was a mainstream view, and even Obama opposed it: in 2012, Obama publicly went on the record that his views had shifted to support. The Mozilla/Eich thing went down in 2014, and Eich had an opportunity to communicate that he'd changed his views. If he did that sincerely, he'd likely be CEO of Mozilla today. Instead he stood by his 2008 views, reaffirming that he's on the wrong side of history.

ALSO his inability to handle the controversy demonstrated his lack of CEO abilities.

You don't know what went on during my ten days as CEO, but that won't stop you from disparaging my CEO abilities without actual evidence, will it? Talk to @christi3k or @lsblakk or others who supported me before you disparage, if you care about testimony from people who were there.

Important update (should go without saying): that I left does not prove anything about CEO abilities. There's only one line I do say about why I left, and it is vague. You can find it on my blog from 3 April 2014, I'm not repeating it here.

Your questions present a false dichotomy. You can be against the news anchor merely because of his principles and against the school board because of theirs.

To me this is logically consistent because you believe the viewpoints themselves are incorrect.

The problem is that you're not the arbiter of all correctness in the universe--what if you're not around to tell everyone what's correct, or what if you don't know, or are wrong? Peoples' careers and lives shouldn't be subject to vagaries of public opinion.

That's why we have a legal system for resolving legitimate grievances. If YC believes that (for example) Peter Thiel has damaged their brand by so strongly supporting Trump, they can sue him for their just compensation. If they find that they have no real grounds for such, they can deal with the fact that we live in a society that prizes having a broad diversity of opinions, some of which are odious but which we must tolerate anyway.

You Americans (at least I think the majority of you are Americans) are getting quite ridiculous arguing over this.

Supporting a political candidate is a personal choice, one that is given to every eligible individual in a democratic state. Calling for someone to be fired or sever ties with them over political choice is retarded and counter-productive.

It's also generally illegal to fire someone over political beliefs, if I recall correctly.

Nationally title 7 only protects you from the following: sex, race, color, national origin, and religion. There might be local state laws that protect you from politics, but no national law.

Religion is held higher than other forms of opinions like political stance? Weird.

A consequence of living in a country founded on freedom from religious persecution, something that Trump's supporters badly need to be reminded of.

Given the era it was written in "race, color, national origin, and religion" were seen as a way of defining and carpet bombing the entire "ancestry" topic. If they just listed "ancestry" there would be wiggle room with what is the definition in order to discriminate on ancestry. For the purposes of the legal system the definition of ancestry in that context is all of race, color, national origin, religion.

Interesting political affiliation isn't seen as ancestry although in practice it most certainly is. We like to LARP that elections are fair because people decide, when the reality is most of the population is born into party affiliation and boundaries are gerrymandered such that almost none of the public gets to actually decide anything ever. What I'm getting at is we LARP that the people have a voice and a crucial part of the LARPing is we must pretend political affiliation is NOT dominated almost entirely by ancestry. If for example "all black people vote for party X" that would imply black people are not part of a representative democracy where leaders are selected by voting etc, which is totally badthink thoughtcrime to even consider as a physics style thought experiment or mathematical inductive reasoning. So obviously politics can't be a protected class in a "democracy" like the USA.

It seems especially terrible that a religious belief that "gay people should be executed" is more protected than, um, being a gay person.

If you think that's out there, consider something like sharia law [1][2] where the law is based on religion. In some regions, you can get arrested for things you don't even understand.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_on_sharia_law

He's not an employee.

Eghm egmm Brendan Eich eghmm

First, it's not generally illegal to fire people over political beliefs. More importantly, though, Peter Thiel isn't an employee of Y Combinator --- as Altman himself has been at pains to point out.

Americans love to moralize and punish each other. Instead of saying that they think somebody is wrong they like to make the other person into some evil person who can't even be argued with because they are so evil. That's why there is no real political discourse but just people screaming at each other.

I see a lot of Trump supporters doing the same thing as the (mainstream) left is doing here. The entire concept is strange to me, that they would so rabidly support their tribe that they think they've attained some a) of moral superiority or b) their tribe is the only thing stopping the country from total disaster. The truth is a lot more boring than their fantasies. The media feeds into this hysteria though so I don't blame all of them.

Americans (at least the left leaning ones) also love holiness spiral signalling wars. Its quite possible OP doesn't believe anything in the linked to article, but that style of writing is how the left does sophistry, its the progressive modern way to signal superiority and worth. Op wants attention and smugness, that's how its done in 2016. People who believe any of the linked article is literally true end up with the same logical problems as people who believe every word of a holy book is literally true. The linked article is well written sophistry but don't expect sophistry to contain anything rational. If you didn't get to irrational beliefs in a rational logical manner, you're not going to escape from irrational beliefs using rational or logical discussion, which makes debating the specific points of the sophistry pointless.

The right wingers love to do that too, not only the lefties. Call somebody "racist" or "socialist" and you have marked them as so bad that no further dialog is needed (or even possible).

I agree emphatically that this is on both sides. Those of us who have watched with relief and hope the decline of influence of irrational, moralizing, censoring fundamentalist Christians[1] (on the right) are somewhat shocked and disappointed to see such a dramatic uptick of irrational moralizing fundamentalist social justice activists[1] on the left.

[1] Not all of them! But enough to cause harm to society

    Its quite possible OP doesn't believe anything in the linked to article

By OP I assume you mean me, ie: the guy who submitted the article to HN, not the author.

First, I'm not out for attention, but thanks for that unprompted attack (dick). I submitted this as it seemed wrong that it kept being censored/flagged off HN. Honestly I expected it to be flagged off again, but hoped at least a few more people would get to see it.

For me the real issue isn't so much that Thiel is Trump supporter, but that Sam Altman and PG have both been very vocal in their denouncement of Trump, so keeping Thiel as a partner (not employee, let's be clear about that) seems incongruous at best, and down right spineless at worst.

Don't get me wrong, Donald Trump is huge cunt in my view, but even if I were indifferent to Trump, I'd still feel Thiel and Ycombinator should not be doing business together with such drastically conflicting values.

It's also probably worth mentioning I'm English and live in the UK, and this whole election reminds me of Brexit. Pretty much everyone I spoke to thought it would be a landslide for remain. Hell, even the politicians advocating leave didn't seem to think they'd win. Yet here we are, £GBP in free fall, and no one on either side seems to have any idea what to do next.

Even if it seems unlikely now, Trump could end up as president, and that's scary for a lot of people.

> Sam Altman and PG have both been very vocal in their denouncement of Trump, so keeping Thiel as a partner seems incongruous at best, and down right spineless at worst.

You may have to clarify this for me, because it sounds as if you believe people with different political ideals can never work together, even on something non-political.

It seems the exact opposite to me. Spineless would be cutting ties with Thiel, even though it's against their principles to do so over political affiliation, just because some people who get hysterical over politics want them to.

Their main values are making boatloads of money legally. That unifies Thiel, YC and everybody else.

I don't think Thiel should be ostracized but it would be nice if he was asked to explain his thinking a little more instead of just yelling at him. He is a smart guy, maybe there is something to learn.

> "Sam Altman and PG have both been very vocal in their denouncement of Trump, so keeping Thiel as a partner ... seems incongruous at best, and down right spineless at worst"

When people you know to be both intelligent and courageous seem to be doing something crazy and/or spineless, you should ask yourself what presuppositions you differ on.

You seem to hold the presupposition that people cannot work professionally together if they hold divergent political views. Think carefully about the implications of that viewpoint, and whether it's one that others can be assumed to hold.

So it boils down to people who know they live in extreme conformist echo chambers, and think everyone else is trapped in a similar cell, repeatedly are surprised when the isolated echo chamber fails to accurately model reality, and when that happens, its always someone else's fault because some third party are dicks, cunts, have no idea whats going on, or they're scary. The theoretical model, and the echo chamber, are immaculately conceived and error free and the source of the problem is always elsewhere.

Since I can't think of a response better than restating it myself, I think I'll leave it right there? I mean there's really nothing else to say. To paraphrase Newton what doesn't work will continue not to work unless a force is applied.

>Americans love to moralize and punish each other. Instead of saying that they think somebody is wrong they like to make the other person into some evil person who can't even be argued with because they are so evil.

That used to be mostly confined to the conservative side of the political spectrum. Now it's spread to the liberal side as well.

I think its the anonymizing nature of the internet. We're not evolved to communicate digitally. Its going to be a rough road here on out for the human race.

I agree with your first two sentences, but I think we'll figure this out within another generation.

> Americans love to moralize and punish each other. Instead of saying that they think somebody is wrong they like to make the other person into some evil person who can't even be argued with because they are so evil. That's why there is no real political discourse but just people screaming at each other.

It used to be the monopoly of the right in US, now it's interesting to see that the left engages in the exact same rhetoric, techniques and tactics. Or maybe they always did, it's just more blatant today how both sides are extreme and if you don't fall in line you're either Satan or worse than Hitler.

By donating millions of $ you cross the line from speech to action.

What? People get fired over personal choices all the time. If I leered at women at the office, then told them it was fine because they secretly liked it, I'd be out in no time. It's a personal choice to do that, and to support a candidate who does the same, but the company can absolutely take your choices into account when figuring out who isn't needed.

There is a difference between having private non-conforming opinions and openly harassing colleagues. Only the latter is an obvious lack of virtue.

Although to be fair, it's not clearcut. If you quietly say you support someone who is openly harassing colleagues, that is basically harassment by proxy. Being less direct could actually be worse, since it's passive-aggressive.

I'm not implying that applies in this case.

I agree, it's not that clearcut and you provided a great counterexample to my argument. My example was intended for mostly disjoint private and professional spheres but I did not specify it.

Thank you, I couldn't agree more with you. I'd like to add that being a professional means working together with people of diverging opinions.

Both candidates' slogans are deeply ironic (Stronger Together and Make America Great Again) in light of the division and alienation the election is fostering. The US media are radicalizing the people for the sake of votes.

I hope Thiel doesn't stress himself over such outrage. I wish him well.

Adult life is full of personal choices that adults are required to be accountable for.

Then perhaps you'd like to get rid of anonymous voting?

No, I would not like to get rid of anonymous voting.

Ask a simple question, get a simple answer.

But you would like to punish people who are publicly backing a candidate. Not very consistent.

You'll have to do a better job of connecting those dots for me, because I do not see the connection between criticizing someone for endorsing a member of the Trump campaign and working to eliminate the anonymous vote.

Incidentally? Elimination of the anonymous vote? That's something Peter Thiel probably actually believes in. He believes democracy is a failed experiment, and the extension of the franchise to women harmed society. He believes, in general, that more voting worsens outcomes.

Can you not see the difference between judging people for their public positions and making it illegal for their positions to be private?

Voter registration is already public in many states (and searchable online). While that doesn't include actual votes, it does include party affiliation which is obviously a strong indicator. Beyond some extreme exceptions, you can't even opt-out of being listed in this publicly searchable database which includes your home address as well. In other words, voting is hardly anonymous even today.

And even that doesn't account for recent massive scale (191M people) leaks [1].

https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/3yinij/entire_us_v...

You don't have to put a political affiliation.

That information is available (historically) from the third-party voting scraper sites (e.g. http://ohiovoters.info/). If there is a way of preventing it from being collected, I'm not sure how to do it.

Anonymous voting ("the australian ballot") doesn't exist to protect you from your public opinions. It exists to allow people who don't want to express their opinions in public from being coerced when they make their choice and to negate the power of bribery to influence elections. If no one can prove you voted for the right candidate, it's less enticing to hand people money to do so. American elections weren't secret in the past. This was a fix that was put in to throw a wrench in political machines ("vote for this guy or I'll break your legs") and quid pro quo fueled campaigns ("here's $100 bucks if you vote for my candidate").

Almost nobody will agree with the idea that in an ideal world built upon the "marketplace of ideas" that someone should be constrained from expressing political opinions for fear of losing their employment.

In fact this being so is a primary driver of Trump's anti-PC appeal.

Nobody is losing their employment in this discussion. Thiel doesn't even have equity in YC. His part-time partner status is a marketing arrangement, a co-endorsement. All that Sam Altman is being asked to do is to reconsider endorsing Thiel.

Meanwhile, all sorts of misconceptions are behind the appeal of Donald Trump. Donald Trump is a monster. I do not think reasonable people are required to change their behavior to assuage the misconceptions of his deluded followers.

>Donald Trump is a monster.

Such thoughtful discussion backed by so many supporting arguments.

You think this a damning argument. But no reasonable reader thinks we couldn't blow the thread up to 1000 more comments, each choc-a-bloc with vivid details, about the terrible flaws of Donald Trump.

The reason I'm not taking the bait is that the debate on this thread isn't about Donald Trump, and I'm not going to help you muddy the waters.

No, I mean what I've said repeatedly. If you support Donald Trump, or even just think he's no worse than Hillary Clinton, I'll agree to disagree with you and move on. But Sam Altman does not agree with you. Sam Altman compares Donald Trump to a dictator. Paul Graham compared him to Stalin.

The debate is about whether Altman can continue to endorse an important member of Trump's campaign while still believing that Trump is an existential threat to democracy. If Altman is sanguine about a Trump presidency, his support for Thiel is understandable. I don't think that he is.

By all means, vote for your clean-as-the-wind-driven-snow candidate Clinton.

Your willingness to stoke the red-vs-blue fires is why the US has ended up where we are. In other words, you're part of the problem.

Fair enough re: employment, but if we shift "employed by" to "do business with" it's still the same discussion.

A theme going on here is a binary state regarding how we should treat individuals and consider their positions. This idea of "endorsing" Thiel means you are supporting all of his political views and not just his business views. That if one supports Trump one is all-in on all of his positions.

For example, many of Trump's supporters are identifying with his economic message. They may find his immigration stance to be distasteful but the overriding concern is the economy, so they are willing to suck it up. Trump's bloc isn't a monolithic group with shared priorities.

Altman's position on this is exactly correct- expressing his disagreement with Thiel but with the maturity to quash the urge to run away from or "punish" Thiel. We would be better off as a society if we all adopted this mindset.

If we shift "employment" to "do business with", we have formulated an argument that boycotts are unethical. So, no, I don't think that gets us anywhere.

Boycotts are designed to force a _business_ to change behavior.

If we extend this into the realm of the individual and political speech, it is a totally different animal with clear dangers for freedom of expression.

I am not myself sure if I would consider it a moral failing to "boycott" an individual as a pressure tactic in these circumstances (or more like misguided social engineering) but it is definitely laudable to take a more nuanced view as Altman and YC have done.

Businesses are made of people. But your argument is even less coherent than that. When people boycotted Nestle, they were supporting a campaign whose intended impact could have put thousands of people out of work, many of whom had no opposition at all to the boycotter's ideas. Boycotting a company is an even more grave act than criticizing some dude with more than one McLaren about endorsing a Trump campaign surrogate who could most likely buy McLaren Automotive. But we tolerate and accept boycotts, as we must, because they are a form of political speech.

It is totally fine to take action against a business; that the business is comprised of people who have no direct input into the actions of the entity and may face consequences of the actions against it should not be an important consideration of where you choose to spend your money.

A counterexample would be a situation where someone went and figured out that most of Nestle's employees were supporting Trump and then boycotted the business as a way to pressure those employees into altering their positions. That is much closer to being morally objectionable.

Outside of that, Altman _has_ criticized Thiel's views, directly. The disagreement seems to be about what to do afterwards. He is simply not willing to cut him off for this disagreement. If this way of thinking was a social norm, you would eliminate "anti-PC" griping which is important to a good chunk of Trump supporters, and you would likely see positive social change happen more rapidly (e.g. if this was the norm 50 years ago you might have seen more movement on gay marriage, etc. if people could pipe up without fear of being fired (or "boycotted")).

Can we stop with the straw man of people getting fired for their views! That is so over the top as to be ridiculous.

We have seen many examples in the last decade of "enemies of the left" being fired and no platformed for their views. This campaign targeting Thiel appears to be a product of the same value system, so it is understandable that some people consider it relevant to the discussion.

I really really hate to wade into this, but can you define either "enemies of the left", "the left" or give explicit examples of what you are describing?

Would you like to be held accountable for Aylan Kurdi

Thanks, man.

You are correct that supporting a political candidate is a personal choice, and on many occasions I continue to do business with companies headed by people who back political ideals I disagree with. However, I HAVE discontinued business with companies that directly support groups I disagree with (Chick-fil-a being a small, but easy example) - I don't care what people do with their own funds, but once a companies name is attached to a donation or lobbying effort it's completely reasonable to hold them accountable for their actions in my eyes.

Unfortunately, even with this mental separation I try to maintain it falls into shades of gray when there isn't a clear separation between the business and the individual.

I don't disagree with you, man, but you also have to realize this wound never fully healed after our Civil War ended in 1865.

You look at a map of the "red states" and they are very much what is remaining of the Confederate States of America. The red states in the west are where these racist losers fled to after the war to get away from all the freed blacks.

The fact that Trump is calling the election "rigged" and essentially egging on an armed rebellion after election day - well that just might happen because it already did a very long time ago.

The question of whether every eligible individual in a democratic state should be allowed to support political candidates with millions of dollars in funding is a contentious one, and my understanding is that the answer in most developed countries is "no, you're not allowed to do that."

In this thread and others I've seen this:

Shouldn't individuals have a right to have terrible opinions?

Of course they do. But a surprising number of “free speech” and “free market” people don’t seem to understand how either works.

Individuals have a right to support white nationalists.

Individuals also have a right not to do business with those who support white nationalists.

Individuals also have the right to organize protests against those who support white nationalists.

Let's be clear: defending the right to support a white nationalist while denouncing the right to protest against one isn’t courage, it’s sophistry.

The tone of the protest is what is objectionable.

In any case, I don't see anyone denouncing the right to protest, just the protest itself, which is the next turtle on the way down from your sentiment.

You are correct that all of those are rights. The question here is what is the course of action that will lead to the best outcome?

People who believe YC should disassociate from Thiel are doing so based on the belief that the consequences of not doing so would be to promote a Trump presidency, which would have bad consequences to a variety of minority groups, etc.

People who believe YC should not disassociate from Thiel (I am one of them) would assert that doing so would set up or perpetuate a norm in which it is acceptable to ostracize people for unpopular opinions (unpopular relative to a certain community or context). Brendan Eich was another semi-recent example of this.

The effect of this, I believe, would be to: a) further balkanize and polarize our politics, and b) to exert chilling effects discouraging people from airing unpopular opinions, which in turn would inhibit an open marketplace of ideas, which, I believe, is necessary for progress. I believe individuals and societies can only grow by being exposed to a variety of ideas, some of which they disagree with, and ostracizing people who disagree would prevent this from being possible.

So both sides are arguing there are negative consequences they are trying to avoid. Which side an individual will come down on, I suspect, will depend on how much weight they place on each type of negative outcome.

As a personal aside, I know what it is like to have to be ostracized for holding an unpopular opinion. I am an atheist in a deeply red and religious state. I have tried to "come out" and quickly had to "get back in the closet" based on the intensity of ostracism I received. So I admit this kind of thing has made me more sympathetic to people holding unpopular opinions.

Replace "Thiel" with "communism" and much of this article (and many of these comments) could be taken from the 1950s. McCarthyism is unacceptable from the right or the left.

McCarthyism was not about firing rich people for donating massive amounts of money to public political candidates. There is no similarity here.

So, none of the Hollywood writers who were blacklisted were rich? And none of them donated time or money to Communist causes? The intolerance is almost exactly the same.

No one dislikes Trump more than me. But you can't divorce 40% of the country.

I don't have a problem with a private company, such as YC or a production company, firing someone for publicly donating a massive amount of money to a political candidate.

McCarthyism was different because:

1. Many of the people who were fired, blacklisted, or persecuted were only suspected communists.

2. Somewhat related: if any of the blacklisted people were rich enough to do so, they didn't publicly donate their day's equivalent of $1.25M to any communist cause.

3. There is no threat of violence, prison, or losing his livelihood for Thiel in this case.

>McCarthyism was different because ...

... you really really dislike Trump and/or the GOP. That's the difference here.

> "Many of the people who were fired, blacklisted, or persecuted were only suspected communists"

would it have been OK to fire, blacklist, or persecute them if they had been actual communists, then?

It would have been OK with me to fire (and only fire) them if they were actual communists. Political beliefs are not a protected class in the United States.

It sure as heck had to do with your political beliefs.

It puzzles me how come in USA people are considering only 2 candidates to chose from. At this stage it looks like people are not voting for the candidate they agree with, they are choosing the candidate they disagree with the most and then voting for the other one. This is only 1 step better than how it used to be in USSR where people had an option to chose essentially only 1 party. (sure officially there were more parties, as there are more candidates in USA, but it wasn't a real option in reality). Still far away from European democracies where each election you have multiple parties competing.

Your characterization of this election is wrong.

43% of Americans approve of Clinton[1].

33% approve of Trump[2].

That means the vast majority of Americans are not choosing the lesser of two evils. They actively like one candidate or the other (or both).

1. http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/hillary-clinton... 2. https://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/donald-trump-f...

this charts (as many published polls) are based on very small samples. asking 1000-3000 people. yes those people are selected to sample the whole spectrum, but if they are always the same people, you can not claim that they are representative anymore. as simply by asking the poll questions you are turning group of people who "don't care about the election" into the group "was forced to think about election and now have an opinion".

Huffington Post, seriously?

Per ABC News (which is still pro-Clinton), they are both equally unpopular:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/poll-clinton-unpopularity-hig...

Huffington Post is a respected poll aggregator. Also, I wasn't showing you unpopularity. I was showing you popularity. Those are different.

Those polls don't necessarily mean that people aren't choosing the lesser of two evils. Those questions aren't asked in a vacuum. Most of the polls ask about people's opinion of the candidates in a Clinton vs Trump context. Even if that wasn't the case, people might still feel that they have to support one candidate over the other.

It's hard to make people throw away their biases and ask themselves why they really support something.

your statement is non-sensical. what, did you add together 43 + 33 = 76 therefore the majority are satisfied?

that's crazy talk. the best case scenario is that 43% of the electorate is satisfied. both candidates are very very far away from being acceptable to a majority of the entire electorate.

In France there is a two step election : during the first round, people choose between multiple candidates (around 10). The two candidates with the most votes are selected to go to the second round, where people choose the next president.

There is a saying that during the first round you vote for your favourite candidates, while during the second you vote against the one you don't want to see in office.

This seems to be what is happening now in the US

I heard an interesting idea which would be to place always a "none of the above" option on the ballot for any position, and in the event that option took majority, all candidates listed would be disqualified completely, and new ballot would need to be made.

this can very easily result in never ending loop.

It's an inevitable result of winner-take-all, first-past-the-post voting. This video explains the situation very well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

Short of revolution, we aren't ever going to see a representative democracy here, because the two parties in power have us perfectly divided 50/50, and the status quo benefits them both greatly.

this seems to be a problem of presidential democracy (voting for 1 man). parliamentary democracy, where people are voting for a party and even specifically for multiple people nominated by the party, is solving this problem.

Right, but how do we get the US to move to a system of proportional voting and power? We're never going to get a president+congress that is controlled by one party to vote and pass new laws / ratify new amendments that change the system such that they'll no longer be in control. And we can't get the current two parties to agree on whether the sun is hot or not, let alone on radically changing the way our democracy works.

The cynic in me suspects that, despite all the fiery rhetoric, both parties are in fact very happy with the status quo and the partisan divide that exists in this country. Aside from a few battleground states/areas, most seats are perfectly safe. Mississippi isn't going blue, and California isn't going red.

I don't think your opinion is cynical. Don't be afraid to draw logical conclusions. Don't allow political correctness to make you feel sorry for, you know, using your brain. You're not the problem here; the red-vs-blue crowd is.

The most obvious avenue is to promote ballot propositions to change the voting mechanism, in states that allow this, like California. California recently changed to "open primaries", for example. (A bad idea, that one, but approval voting or score voting could go through the same way.)

It'd need to get pushed from outside the major parties, I guess by someone genuinely public-spirited, since the benefit is very diffuse and long-term. Unless some Machiavelli can figure out an angle -- I sure can't. Once it's had a toehold in a couple states for a few election cycles, though, I think there's a good chance it'd spread, because it seems hard to argue against once it's on the table as a serious option. (Maybe the strongest move then for the parties would be to muddy the waters with instant runoff voting and other such complications.)

(I think approval voting is more 'American' than proportional representation and haven't really thought about how we'd move to proportional rep, but there's the same first step available.)

The people manipulation machine is so well tuned. The internet has failed us.

People think hating trump supporters is the cool thing to do and probably would put their life on the line against him. How crazy is that?

No longer is one even attempting to respect or even research another point of view. No time for that. Don't you realize that the only goal is to divide the people and remove focus from what actually matters?

The whole US politics is now about showing how the other candidate character is the most horrible and any lie is fair game, on any side.

The owner of basically all media wins the war - and thats not exactly surprising either.

Imagine working in a world where when you disagree with the way someone votes or supports a political character, you tried to get them fired. No one would have a job anymore.

Altman has it right, as much as Trump is reprehensible what candidate the partners of YC support has no bearing on whether or not a business relationship should be broken up. Politics are a private matter, just as religion, your sexuality, who you choose as a significant other and so on.

Thiel has had the guts to publicly come out in support for one of two very reprehensible candidates, one who I would be happy not to see become president of the most powerful country in the world (privately I wonder if these two are really the best people America could come up with to lead the country but that's another matter). At the same time I'm not so conceited that I would call for others to dissociate themselves from a working relationship with Peter Thiel though I will happily dissociate myself from him (easy for me to say, I have no business dealings with Peter Thiel, so probably I should say 'would').

Freedom is all about how you live your life, not about telling others how they should live theirs and what they should and should not do and even if I would be happy to see Altman (and by extention YC) dissociate himself from Peter Thiel I would not stoop to the point of asking or demanding of him that he do so, it's his life, his business and any kind of cognitive dissonance between what he sees as a serious threat to America as we know it today/continued association with a supporter of that threat is entirely his own.

I've always had a real problem with people telling others how they should live their lives, decide for yourself what you want and leave other people out of it.

People telling other people how they should live is why there is religious persecution, why LGBT people can't marry and why political dissent is repressed in many places. This behavior has no place in an advanced society. Peter Thiel should be free to support whichever candidate he feels like and Sam Altman should be free to associate himself and YC with Peter Thiel.

This kind of thinking is why even as a heavily left-leaning person, I have a real problem with the current attitude of the social-justice movement.

I believe Sam is right, Trump is a reprehensible person who has done horrific things and has no right being president. But just because I find him and a large majority of his supporters as ignorant, racist, homophobic and hate-filled people doesn't mean I have any right to exclude or excommunicate them just for their beliefs.

It sets a dangerous precedent to work towards silencing and vilifying a party whom you disagree with, and while it seems fine when from your point of view it is for the greater good, what happens when someone who works to silence and vilify you claims it is for the greater good?

On top of which, it makes us no better than the ultra-conservative isolationists to vilify and excommunicate based upon belief. Don't believe me? Just look at the language and justification used by Trump and his supporters and compare it to the language that we left-leaning use against Trump and his supporters.

A true democracy means every person, no matter how repugnant, gets their voice heard. A truly diverse community means that all people, no matter their race, sexual orientation or their political beliefs deserve to be heard. And a truly free society allows for the free exchange of ideas and beliefs, what defines us as people is our ability to recognize what is morally right or wrong in those ideas and rather than vilify, try to educate.

There are two separate questions here:

Q1. Is Trump a spectacularly bad candidate, i.e. would he turn the USA intor a dictatorship, start a nuclear war, or do somethnig else equally damaging to society?

Q2. If Y Combinator shunned Thiel for supporting Trump, would that make a Trump presidency less likely?

If the answer to Q2 is no, as I suspect it is, then it doesn't much matter what the answer to Q1 is.

If we end up with a culture where people are shunned or lose their jobs for their political beliefs (e.g. Brendan Eich) or for who they associate with, that can only coarsen political debatre in the USA, in the long term making it more likely that it does become a dictatorship, something the people doing the shunning want to avoid.

Excellent points. I have no love for someone as ignorant as Donald Trump, but the values demonstrated by some of the most committed Trump haters seems the most likely to support a dictatorship in the years to come.

In fact if Q1=yes and YC shunning Thiel would make it more likely that Trump would win, which it might well do as it plays into Trump's anti-establishment narrative, then people opposed to Trump should very much insist on YC not shunning Thiel.

Removing someone from business just you have difference with their political view is wrong. Suppose lets take this next level:

- In Restaurant people refuse to serve someone because his political view is different- Will it be great?

- Theil decides to fire employee's from his business because they don't agree with his political views. - Does that sounds good?

- For example, companies like uber/airbnb decides to serve only people who agree with the political view of their founders?

Fully agree - it should really be a protected clause for employment.

Let's say the 50% that support the left controls all the jobs as an example. Then you can fire the opposition if you don't fall in line and do what you're told. That's a scary thought.

I'm third party but I find it amusing and disturbing to watch both sides. If you can't understand why people don't like Hillary you're not being honest or open with yourself. The same goes for Trump.

I for one support Y Combinator's commitment to tolerance. Tolerance is sadly lacking in today's political discourse. Like many, I find Donald Trump distasteful, but to call for the removal of an investor for supporting a candidate one disagrees with is both intolerant and small minded. A pluralistic democracy depends on both tolerance and civility for its' very existence. It's more than a little ironic to me that people critical of Donald Trump for, essentially, being intolerant are now expressing that criticism in the form of intolerance by calling for the banishment of his supporters.

As a non-US outsider:

Would there be such a ruckus if this was about some other VC fund that bore more right-wing cultural flavors and they had a markable member who donated vast sums of money to the democrat nominee?

A rational person would not discriminate against someone because they do not support the same football club. I fail to see how this is any different.

I see the divide in this country growing every day.

We aren't electing a king or queen.

It's a single political position that's checked by the House and Senate.

And yet because of the media, because of the Republicans, because of the Democrats, we're no longer Americans. We're a people who are being played against each other for revenue in a popularity contest.

I've never seen people act so terribly to each other on such a normalized scale. The polarization scares me.

Divided we fall.

“Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?” With no hesitation whatsoever, Franklin responded, “A republic, if you can keep it.” (Benjamin Franklin)

The only thing that separates us from other countries is our Constitution.

When you have the federal government doing things outside the Constitution that should be legally left to the states, you end up with some really polarizing things that are applied to the whole country. That gets nasty.

I'm a states right supporter in a left leaning state. Not saying the right doesn't do this either, but the left gets very emotional if you disagree. They try to shut you down, gang up, think you're a bad person or an idiot if you disagree. When I disagree, it's usually because it's a state issue that they want to ram down the whole country. They often have a complete disdain for the Constitution and have no idea what a republic is.

I'm against Trump but this holier-than-thou grandstanding demanding shunning anyone who supports Trump is tiring and small-minded. It's a symptom of a society intolerant of other political beliefs. Moreover, do you think ostracizing 40% of society for their political beliefs is really going to improve our political future? It's easier to cut out people we disagree with than arguing with their beliefs (civilly).

Let's take the high road and stick to impassioned, reasoned arguments against Trump's beliefs and actions.

No thanks, as a non-white male I will not have my quality of life destroyed due to racist old whites who aren't willing to come into the modern age.

Calling anybody who supports Trump a racist old white is an example of what I mean.

Better to argue against his beliefs and actions rather than just write off his supporters as a lost cause.

Dude, go see the comments in reddit /r/the_donald and then get back to me.

I hope that the "40%" (more likely 20%) will come back to rational thinking, but we will see. I consider myself a left leaning centrist, and I like some things Donald says, but it's only because a broken watch is right twice a day.

The Reddit and Twitter trolls are terrifying. But are you saying all (or even most) of the >40% of Americans that will vote for Trump are as bad as them?

We'll see what the final percentage is but 538 is polling Trump at around 42% today.

I'm not American. I live far away from the country and have zero influence on its politics.

However, America has a deep influence on the whole world, and, of course, it's president is very relevant for all nations in this planet. So I follow the political scenario closely.

As (hopefully) many, I'm completely against Trump. He's irresponsible, most of the ideals he spread are harmful to (my understanding of the) development of mankind, etc. I really hope that he isn't elected under any circumstances.

Still, it seems to me that Marco doesn't understand democracy, freedom of speech, belief, and a number of other values that are as important to mankind as those Trump poses a risk to. As a person should (has to) be free to vote to whomever they wish, also they are free to support that same individual.

Punishing such support is about the same as threating The Republic for supporting Clinton.

I could write a mirrored copy for "How dare you support a warmongering, nation-selling, unpatriotic woman like Hillary." but these sorts of attacks are pointless in the end. No US-based company should be supporting Hillary. They don't have the best interest of the nation at heart, they have the best interest of their wallets instead.

I'm wondering when the far-left is going to wake up and realize by alienating their fellow countrymen with attacks and namecalling they are creating a larger problem, not solving it. You don't win over people's hearts by calling them bigots and sexists (especially when accusations like that get thrown around because of "manspreading" or "microaggressions").

Both political sides are allowing themselves to be manipulated so heavily by the media, and that there is an increasingly dangerous gap between "us" and "them" mentality going on in the States. I'm actually genuinely concerned for the day of the election. Regardless of who wins, people have fanned the flames so much that I'm glad I live in a small rural area. Regardless of Trump or Hillary I'm expecting riots on the streets of many cities/regions.

I shouldn't be expecting that - and blog posts like this one only fan the flames ever higher.

PG's essay "What you can't say" springs to mind:

>It seems to be a constant throughout history: In every period, people believed things that were just ridiculous, and believed them so strongly that you would have gotten in terrible trouble for saying otherwise.

http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

There seems to be this progressive instinct to claim that it's not enough for people to believe the same things I do, or support the same people I do, but instead everyone must always denounce the people I do in the ways I dictate or be shamed and boycotted. This instinct is divisive and damaging, and drives away erstwhile allies.

Posts like Pao's and this one, which are intended to enforce a progressive orthodoxy through the application of massive negative pressure, are far less effective in winning over converts than its authors suppose. A lighter touch would be far more effective.

Any form of ostracism based on someone's political views scares the hell out of me.

It constitutes an attempt to suppress political discourse and ultimately, freedom of speech.

Disappointing to see many in the tech industry not understanding this.

This opinion makes zero sense to me.

People are allowed to have opinions, and people are allowed to criticize those opinions. If you're going to publicly support something (like, say, with a million dollar donation), you should expect public feedback about said support.

There's no suppression of the freedom of speech happening here - Marco is expressing an opinion about an opinion.

By your logic, we should accept all opinions as valid and not critize any of them because that would be "suppression" of the freedom of speech. But clearly all opinions are not valid - and people on HN seems to have no problem (rightfully) critizing sexism and other discrimination in the workplace. And people are criticizing Trump (and his supporters) for the same thing.

Criticizing/arguing is fine.

But expelling Thiel from YC (a company which has nothing to do with politics), because of his views, is a form of punishment and discourages others from expressing their political opinions, in fear of the same happening to them.

So, it is suppression of free speech, through actions (not words) designed to intimidate.

That's still not suppression of free speech.

I know this is cliché, but freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence. I can exercise my freedom of speech at my employer and repeatedly say terribly insulting and disparaging things to my coworkers. My employer can then fire me. Would you say my employer is suppressing my freedom of speech?

The answer is obviously no. I still can speak freely, just not while voluntarily associated in a contract with my previous employer. I wouldn't say my coworkers intimidated me into being fired by my employer - I brought it upon myself by saying terrible things.

I see that as the same thing as this Thiel situation, except it's even more public. Instead of just insulting coworkers, Thiel is publicly (implicitly) (to some people) (in a large way) supporting discrimination and sexism. I'm not saying I would necessarily expel him, but I would have serious reservations about working with someone who could possibly do that, even if it's somewhat unrelated to the job.

As far as I know, freedom of speech protects you from the government. Since YC is not the government freedom of speech isn't applicable, but anti-discrimination or employment law could be. In fact if the government would limit YCs freedom to not associate with Theil, as guaranteed by freedom of speech, that could technically be a greater violation of rights. This is why some libertarians think that private discrimination should be legal.

> In short, we should condone private — but not government — discrimination, even if the rationale is that a service provider simply doesn’t want to deal with the persons seeking service. That rationale — however offensive it may be in some circumstances — is implicit in our right not to associate, which is the flip side of our constitutional right of association, guaranteed by the First Amendment.

http://www.cato.org/policy-report/marchapril-2016/libertaria...

But I don't have the best understanding of US laws.

Indeed, "free speech" is a narrower issue. This issue is merely one of tolerance, and whether or not it is possible for people to continue to work together while respectfully disagreeing on political matters or whether we would prefer to divide further and eventually have separate Republican and Democratic economies.

Honestly, YC's position is reasonable.

> Some have said that YC should terminate its relationship with Peter over this. But as repugnant as Trump is to many of us, we are not going to fire someone over his or her support of a political candidate. As far as we know, that would be unprecedented for supporting a major party nominee, and a dangerous path to start down (of course, if Peter said some of the things Trump says himself, he would no longer be part of Y Combinator).

Employment should not be based on political beliefs.

> Trump shows little respect for the Constitution, the Republic, or for human decency, and I fear for national security if he becomes our president.

Similarly, that is a pretty clear statement that Trump isn't a conservative and I'd say that is honestly all YC needed to do.

Am I to understand that diversity of opinion is only acceptable when all the various diverse opinions are compatible with your morality?

Yes. This is correct. Please look carefully at where and from whom you see that attitude - there is an obvious pattern.

Please dont invade this last bastion of rationality with emotional claptrap. Moral belligerence is not an argument.

Marcos here, line many, falls for the classic myth. That change can come to America via the ballot box. That it matters who you vote for. That the election makes a difference. How many times do we need to be reminded that this isn't true? How many elections of false hope gone nowhere do we need to see?

I'll say it again as I have innumerable times before. It does not matter one bit who gets elected president.

As Emma Goldman once quipped, "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal."

As long as the majority of the population is bickering amongst themselves over one thing or another, the system is working as intended.

I wonder if the author also thinks that YC should reject founders who support trump? Just add a little question to the application form:"Do you now, or have you ever, supported Donald Trump?" The next stage could be "Do you now, or have you ever, associated with a Trump supporter?" - "if so, please list their names here so we can keep YC pure by excluding them from YC, and pass their names to the re-education brigades"

What could possibly go wrong? :)

If Thiel donated $1.25M to the NRA, would this lead to the same calls for YC to distance themselves from Thiel? Where does this end?

I heard the NRA is a a racist, sexist bigot with rapidly mounting allegations of multiple sexual assaults! I don't know who this ceterun_censeo guy is, however, I reckon he obviously is supporting people who support Trump. Light the pitchforks! Shame him on twitbook!*

* I feel like I have to explicitly mark this post as sarcasm for fear of peoples stupidity. I listed some other things (like find out where he works) and it just made me sick, I couldn't do it, even in sarcasm and jest. I hope after the dust settles people remember how to be decent again.

tl;dr

The OP feels that if somebody disagrees with his political view point they should be silenced and oustered, and have their life ruined.

People like Marco are ruinous to society.

> People like Marco are ruinous to society

Yes, and ignoring people like Marcos shows integrity on Altman's part. We should never let despicable people like Marcos hold us hostage.

> People like Marco are ruinous to society.

More than Donald Trump (or Hillary Clinton) ever thought about being, in fact.

"Funding Trump, especially at this scale, represents general support of what Trump has said and done." - That's a pretty big logical leap. Would a person who supports Hillary "generally support" flippant top-secret email handling?

Let's be logical: I think we can all agree that a person can support a candidate while not supporting every word they speak or action they take.

Thinking there is a lot of good in "what Trump has said and done", that his horribly racist, sexist and insane opinions and ideas are an acceptable price, and that Clinton would be a worse president is a legitimate opinion, but comparing Clinton's reckless behaviour to Trump's reckless statements is not. Forgiving past errors isn't the same as accepting future policies. Imprudent and illegal use of email is only a mistake, it doesn't represent a political program or opinion or stance, except for the generic disregard for the law that is implied by breaking it.

Did you really just write "Imprudent and illegal use of email is only a mistake?" My lying eyes must be deceiving me! Not only did you just write that illegal acts are "mistakes," but you also placed political opinions over the legality of actions. You effectively declared that political rhetoric is worse than actual illegal activity.

Go commit a crime 1/100th of the scale of HRC's and see if the uncaring justice system allows you to get away with it as a "mistake."

Pragmatically, political "rhetoric" is more important than crimes. For example, which candidate is more likely to maintain a good relationship between USA and Mexico? Not the one who wants Mexico to pay for a great wall. It doesn't depend on how illegally and immorally they behaved in the past.

Citizens United and McCutcheon were such disasters for our democracy. Hopelessly partisan 5-4 votes from the USSC as well. No surprise given the way big money usually leans.

Corporations aren't people, and money isn't speech, no matter what five people in robes say.

The problem here isn't who Thiel supports, it's that he has the ability to throw $1,250,000 on a whim to that person. Very, very, very few people can do that.

The reason millionaires and billionaires funnel so much money into elections isn't for the hell of it. It's because they know that money buys advertising, attack ads, etc. They know it helps their side win. Because yes, there are many stupid people in this country who are easily swayed by these tactics.

Yes, we all know it's not a guarantee that the candidate with the most money wins. But wealthy people (mostly) aren't stupid: they wouldn't be spending the money if they knew it wouldn't sway any votes.

It's not about buying the election, it's about increasing their chances of winning. An analogy would be buying 1000000 raffle tickets instead of 1 like most other people get. But our entire democracy is based around the idea of one person, one vote. Allowing unlimited money into politics effectively gives vastly more votes to the wealthy.

Get the money out of politics and it's no longer an issue how big of a piece of shit Thiel is. He can like whoever he wants to and I couldn't care less. Oh shoot, I hope he doesn't see this and start bankrolling vendetta lawsuits against me now :/

If I earn money, should I be able to spend it how I like? If I have freedom of speech, and freedom of the press, isn't it fine to use my money towards the goals of freedom of speech & press? Citizens United is solid in my book.

If we were to take down Citizens United, how would you deal with media outlets like Fox or WaPo? They're clearly biased and have an agenda, their biased reporting acts as a contribution to a campaign. But they're businesses, and what they do isn't classified as campaign support, even though it should.

> If I earn money, should I be able to spend it how I like?

You already can't spend it to buy grenades, chemical weapons, illegal drugs, etc. You should not be able to spend it to influence elections either. I just explained why.

It's not 'fair', sure. But a lot of things aren't fair thanks to stupid people being stupid. Most recreational drugs are outlawed to protect the idiots that can't handle it. (Well, that's the narrative anyway. We'll sidestep the racial undertones, benefits to big pharma, etc.) Because otherwise, those idiots can go on to do the rest of us great harm. There are a lot of stupid people who are swayed by bullshit political attack ads (said attacks are deplorable from both sides), so we need some way to minimize that damage. Campaign contribution laws were not a perfect solution, but at least a stopgap measure. Now the floodgates are wide open.

> If we were to take down Citizens United, how would you deal with media outlets like Fox or WaPo?

They operated long before Citizens United came down. They concern me as well, as does MSNBC, RT, Al Jazeera, etc.

It's probably not possible to get fully unbiased news, but we've definitely gotten way worse in recent years on partisanship in news. And regardless of which party you support, you have to agree that the divide between us is becoming increasingly toxic and dangerous. The media is in large part to blame for stirring that up for their ratings.

Of course, even without news, the internet and social media are a big problem now too. Everyone simply follows like-minded people, blocks those they disagree with, and live in echo chambers to reinforce and polarize people even more. It's ... really starting to get very dangerous :/

> what they do isn't classified as campaign support, even though it should.

Agreed. Not that it'd matter anymore :(

Genuine questions here:

Should newspapers (i.e. corporations) be allowed to endorse candidates?

If so, how is this not spending money (paper, ink, time) to influence elections?

If not, how is this not an unacceptable limitation on free speech?

And, (to address a common objection to this line of reasoning), if "bona fide media organizations" get special free speech protections not available to the rest of us, who decides who is a "journalist" and who is an amateur?

Before this goes on too long, I'd like to stress that I don't have all the perfect answers in life. I don't think my views are perfect, but they are what I believe.

I know that often, how things 'should' be require laws that are basically impossible to write. But I really don't think I am being that unreasonable to say there's something grossly unfair about one person being able to pour in millions of dollars into an election to sway votes his way.

> Should newspapers (i.e. corporations) be allowed to endorse candidates?

That's a definite gray area. I can see arguments for and against that.

At least with a newspaper, people are actively choosing to buy it (barring it being in a vending machine with the endorsement on the front page.) It's usually pretty well known and clear that NYT runs liberal, and NYP runs conservative.

I don't get that choice with giant billboards as I drive around town. You can argue I can change the channel, but I don't really get that choice with TV and radio ads, either.

I'm sorry, but like with complex issues (eg abortion), I don't have a perfect answer for you on this point. Any choice is going to come with consequences. But that doesn't mean I think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater and have a cash free-for-all in our elections.

Good answer. So, what we're really boiling down to, is that it's unfair that Peter Thiel has more influence than other people?

Correct. That was what I was getting at with one vote, one person and buying more raffle tickets than another for a drawing. Money = votes, otherwise there wouldn't be so much money in play.

It's not a true democracy when the rich (whether that be the Koch brothers or George Soros) indirectly get way more voting power than the lower and middle classes get.

If people weren't swayed by obvious attack ads, then I wouldn't care how much money people wanted to throw away on elections. And indeed, they wouldn't throw any away, because it would be a total waste then.

There will always be ways to use a million dollars to promote a particular perspective. Maybe wealth inequality is what's really bothering you?

Yes. If everyone had the same amount of money, then we wouldn't have needed campaign finance laws. (We effectively don't have them now.)

I'm not even advocating for everyone to have an exactly equal amount of money. Hard work should be rewarded. But I don't think there's anything the Koch brothers do that entitles them to hundreds of billions of dollars; when the poorest workers bust their asses for 80 hours a week and only earn $15,000 a year. That isn't a fair and just society. We can do much better. And we used to do way better. Income inequality has increasingly soared out of control for decades now.

I sympathize with your sentiment, but I don't agree with your conclusion. Opening the door for the government to regulate opinions about the government seems, on its face, ripe for abuse of power.

If we had wise angels permanently running the government, we could dispose of many precautions. But, since we don't, we should try to have laws where we would be safe from oppression even if our worst enemy took power.

Okay, so... we need to nail some things down for your utopia. What is and is not allowed to be said or printed?

I imagine I can say (with my voice) anything I want? What if I'm standing on a soapbox on a busy corner, 12 hours a day? What if I give a speech to 200,000 people in a stadium?

What about over a radio broadcast? How do you cap that? Individual contributions to campaigns are capped at something like $2.5k, do I essentially get $2.5k of airtime, as valued by advertising times?

What if I'm not specifically supporting a candidate? But I could say: "We should really have a candidate that is good at fixing spine vertebrate, because they'd be good at fixing the spine of America!" or "The next person to appoint a supreme court justice should be pro-life."

If I'm near my $2.5k of cap of support, am I even really allowed to say anything? "America needs a _strong_ candidate" could be an interpreted as support for... well, someone.

I suspect that your solution is going to be impractical and hard to enforce.

One obvious place to draw the line - indeed, the place where used to be drawn - is the part where Citizens United tried to pay channels to air their film about Hillary. Normal media outlets are businesses, which means that they need to cover their costs somehow. They also have to gain and keep the trust of their audience through their reporting. If you're just paying off existing media outlets to show your propaganda to their audience solely for your political gain, then you're engaged in campaigning. This is why Citizens United's earlier attempts to get Fahrenheit 9/11 and its trailers banned failed; the FEC found that it was bona fide commercial activity.

>Citizens United and McCutcheon were such disasters for our democracy

The Citizens United case was about a non-profit being able to produce, advertise, and air a film about a presidential candidate. The government said that they could not because of election financing laws.

This seems much more like a free speech issue than an election financing issue. Do we really want to go down the path were the government can tell you that you can't make a movie about a person because they are currently running for office?

Threatening someones job, or pushing for exclusion based on their political beliefs, is a dangerous precedent. This tactic has been used to exclude people for their gender, race, and sexuality in the past. I don't care if the person working with me is a neo nazi or a hillary supporter or a Trump whack job. As long as they do their job, and dont' do anything that infringes on my ability to get my job done, I don't really care. Leave other people alone and let them believe what they want to believe.

I wish more thinking could be put into their words when people write political posts like this. As much as I'd like to see healthy debates over presidential candidates of choice, this post is not written to facilitate conversation between two sides. Using strong moral indicators ("shame"), finger-pointing to specific influential targets (YC and Thiel) and staying on superficial rhetoric, the author deliberately wrote the post in a way to try policing over people with opposite political belief, leaving no room for argument.

If the targets were not influential or the title gave out the blog content (e.g.shame on my neighbor for being a Trump supporter), it would be treated like yet another personal rant against Trump. If the post presented comprehensive but complicated political analysis, it would loose a big chunk of the intended audiences. I applaud for Marco's ability to convey his political opinion to big audience through a simple blog post. That said, if you are used to performing critical thinking whenever you read stuff, this post is probably not for you.

This post doesn't give people much constructive material to argue over aside from fueling more potential verbal violence. The same goes for most media political pieces. They are political snacks, cheap to grab and quick to consume, but too many snacks are bad for health, in this case, bad for decision making.

What concerns me the most is not HRC or Trump. I will vote for neither and I don't believe that either of them will make a big difference. However a big divide in American society is the real problem. I grew up on Soviet Union and it Communist Party was the one and only ideology pushed down everyone throats. The ideology was more important than people (see for just one of many examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlik_Morozov).

With the D and R camps right now I see exactly the same - the ideology becomes more important than anything else. For example, in this discussion "support for candidate X" factor is considered more important than personal and business relationship between people. This is exactly how Communist Party wanted the people to behave. I don't like it at all.

Instead of working together, the D and R camps push supporters to the extremes. Unfortunately, if this continues then things will go really badly. I am really looking for a force/person who can unite the people instead of dividing them.

What a load of bullshit. If an investor of a known Republican centered industry, let's say a gun manufacturer, donated 1.25M to Hillary's campaign, Marco would be saying praises of him while the people in the gun lobby would be calling for that investors head.

This election cycle has brought the worst out of everyone in the US. I regarded people like @sacca and @marcoarment in a much higher esteem before this began.

Political apartheid. We've seen it. It won't end well.

Shame on Marco.

Where did we see political-only apartheid? I agree it's not sustainable.

Classic american politics: shame people on their political views. Don't argue, you'd risk understanding differing views. Better off cutting all ties with them and remain in your idiotic ignorance.

I somwhow don't think it's "classic". I think it is a fairly modern phenomenon (coming along with "safe spaces", "no platforming" and so on).

"Classic" would be something more along the well-known quote attributed to Voltaire about disagreeing wholeheartedly but defending the freedom of speech of the differing view.

And this Thiel shaming is the exact opposite of that Voltaire thing.

Ok it's true if you cut off dealings with anyone who supports the a candidate you hate, then you are not violating any laws worth obeying, let alone the US constitution.

You are merely being a dickhead.

Do we really want to live in a world all ordinary aspects of life a reduced to a grand show of public piety, and worse, one where we compete to show our willingess to punish the heretics?

I wish that more smart people would not demonize either party and instead analyze and dissect each platform and weigh the potential benefits and consequences of them.

It is much more convincing to read actual facts about the platforms, and it's a lot more constructive.

With the brain power here, we might even be able to make constructive suggestions and possibly even influence either party's policies so that regardless of the outcome it works in everyone's favor.

If we can point out that some component of Hillary's plan or Trump's plan will surely lead to disaster in some way, that itself may have the political power to influence revision in a positive way, especially right now since both candidates are searching for weaknesses in each other's campaigns.

This is one of the most intelligent communities in the world, so let's be constructive.

The problem is that Trump doesn't offer much in policy, even when it comes to policy he actually talks about and this doesn't just affect the things he wants to keep secret from ISIS. He also contradicts himself quite a lot and when he touches upon policy in his talking points it's often times questionable whether he's even aware of the actual policies he's referring to and to what degree.

There is just no basis for an actual discussion or comparison on policy details.

This might be a good strategy. What good does it do? People generally evaluate a candidate on policy last.

On the other hand, the best changes would be the most controversial, so probably wouldn't help his campaign.

This. The whole process has turned into character analysis and character assasination, rather than whose policies make the most sense for America. Both parties and the media are to blame.

There's a ton I personally dislike in the published GOP platform (eliminating the EPA, walking from Kyoto, completing the Keystone, defunding Amtrak, etc, etc) that bears discussion, rather than judging and yelling who's less evil.

I think the core of this dispute is the question: How do we deal with those we deeply disagree with? Ostracism, shunning, and preaching? Or vocally opposing their beliefs, as civilly and constructively as you can?

America is increasingly settling into two tribes who seem to believe in the first option.

The moment you disagree with someone's free speech is precisely the moment when that freedom needs to be defended the most. You can disagree with the contents of the speech, but not with the freedom to express ones self.

Shame on Marco, but I'm proud he has the right to speak his mind.

Anyone who thinks Trump is the only racist in the running for the US presidency need only watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gUAdAYFbIc

Shame on all of you for daring to criticize a person's freedom of speech and participation.

And I'm willing to bet the majority of people posting in this thread are Americans, which makes this whole conversation even more head-shaking for me.

Not a Christian, but "pull the plank from thine own eye" seems to be the most appropriate thing to say to every last one of you here.

It is a criticism of fascism, nazism, racism and sexual assault.

I don't wanna see this crap in my HN.

I agree; I don't know why everyone hasn't flagged this already.

Despite my disagreement with him, Peter Thiel has a right to hold an opinion on which candidate he supports, and the right to donate to the candidate of his choice. It's a presidential election. You can't call it a fair election if as a society, we're threatening to punish people for supporting one candidate over another.

When did Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition change its name to Project Include? These are the exact same extortionate tactics that Jackson and Sharpton have been peddling for decades.

http://www.skeptictank.org/gen4/gen02379.htm

Translation: "Shame on Y Combinator for not punishing someone for supporting a candidate I don't like".

I don't like Trump, either (in fact, I rather strongly dislike him), but that doesn't mean I inherently dislike his supporters just because they happened to pick one of two evils in this shitfest of an election.

2 points : - Peter Thiel has a right to support trump. The common misconception is that for something to be a right it should be morally right as well. This is not the case. Having the right to do something doesn't mean it is morally right to do so. - You can support a subset of someone's ideas without agreeing to all of his ideas. For example, I think Socrates is a great guy but I don't agree with a lot of what he says.

The backlash towards Thiel is an interesting sociological phenomenon. It seems that the pressure to conform is extremely high in the tech community.

This is a tricky situation. While many universally agree Trump is dangerous in his opinions and viewpoints on many issues, you can't just severe ties with an investor because of their political affiliation. Thiel might be supporting a candidate with racist and bigotry views, but this is his choice. When it comes to business, you should never make things personal and I think worrying about someone's political affiliation is definitely making it personal.

Might not be the most popular opinion, but I think Sam made the right call here.

I agree, Digital. I think Sam's comment, "We shouldn’t start purging people for supporting the wrong political candidate. That’s not how things are done in this country" hits the issue spot on. If anything, maybe Mr. Thiel and Mr. Altman ought to have a serious conversation on the issue, but Thiel has undoubtedly contributed significantly to ycom.

By Altman's own argument, there's a line Thiel could cross that would make YC sever ties with him. All it would take is for Thiel to repeat some of the things Trump said.

So having a YC partner fund hate speech is okay, as long as it's by proxy. This is a baffling stance.

Perhaps Thiel dislikes the hate speech as much as you do, but dislikes Clinton's policy proposals even more.

There is a difference between having an opinion or stance on something and repeating racist, ignorant and bigotry statements from a candidate. As far as I know, Thiel has done nothing but make a donation, he isn't forcing his views on anyone at YC nor publicly parroting/endorsing things Trump is saying.

In this instance Thiel has done nothing more than make a donation to a political candidate many don't like.

> There is a difference between having an opinion or stance on something and repeating racist, ignorant and bigotry statements from a candidate.

There is, indeed. Donating over a million dollars that can be used for ads repeating racist, ignorant, and bigoted Trump statements falls squarely in the latter category.

> As far as I know, Thiel has done nothing but make a donation

He had the speaking slot right before Trump at the RNC convention, if I remember correctly.

It's not tricky at all. YC can choose not to dump Theil and another entity can choose to criticize YC.

That's part of democracy and free speech.

There's a stunning degree of false equivalence happening here with regard to Trump.

Trump is not Romney or McCain. It's not a left/liberal-only claim that Trump is dangerously unfit to be president. There are scores of republican national security experts who have written open letters, come out publicly against him, etc.

To claim he's just another side of a coin is absurd. This guy is out there, as we speak, dangerously fanning the conspiracy that the election will be rigged.

The decision by YC sent a signal about diversity of opinions. But, it sent other signals as well. One is that it further normalizes Trump. One can make a strong argument that of the signals YC could have sent, the latter is worse.

Where's the line? Would Trump need to literally have been a klan member for it to be okay for an organization to say, you know what, we're not going to associate with people publicly supporting this guy? Somewhere there's a line, and many of us believe it was crossed a long time ago.

The other thing is, Thiel is not going to be 'unfairly silenced' if YC were to cut ties. He's a vocal billionaire who in our current system of money and politics has a megaphone far larger than most. It's disingenuous to equate YC cutting ties with Thiel to firing an employee over their personal political beliefs. It's a privilege to serve on a board at that level, and there should be a higher moral standard.

> Trump is not Romney or McCain.

And in four years, when the Republicans elect candidate X, you'll say "X is not Trump or Romney, he's literally Satan."

Man the left just excels at doublethink. "Tolerance only when we like what you say!" "A voice for the marginalized, as long as the marginalized are women and minorities!"

I admire YC for continuing to stand up for the principle and practice of free speech.

American politics have become radioactive. Intelligent people stay as far away from it as possible. Because getting involved and becoming visible can mean the end of you in more than one form.

We will never have a good government if good people fear the process and the media so much so that they move-on and devote their lives to more productive pursuits.

Imagine you are not perfect, decide to run for office and are subjected to the kind of media attacks we see escalate to lower lows every election? Who in their right mind wants a part of that?

To some degree one has to admire Trump for enduring the massive campaign against him. A lesser person would have imploded a long time ago. This isn't an endorsement as much as it is recognition of a fact.

What is happening in this election is despicable. The two main candidates are hardly the best this country can produce. And it is our fault. Entirely our fault. Not theirs.

My guess is it will have to get far worst before people wake up and realize we have been in an "emperor has no clothes" environment for decades.

This isn't about Democrats or Republicans. This is about a government taken over by some of the most despicable self-serving people around. Ambulance chasers who would not amount to much had they not gone into government.

Not sure how this will fix itself, if ever.

If Trump is your enemy, like he is mine, fight Trump. To fight and berate others for a twice-removed association is not just stupid, it's lazy, and a waste of your and everyone's time. I see 500+ comments here but no convincing anyone. Perhaps you feel impotent and that you can only shout platitudes onto deaf ears. Think harder, act smarter. Vote, and get those you can influence directly to vote. This thread right here, is not the way.

The whole discussion brings to mind George Orwell.

'Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.'

I believe US democracy is founded on similar notions, and underscores the necessity of this dialogue. Thank you HN for supporting this open forum.

Because of extreme overuse, I think that now roughly half of the country don't care about being called racist or sexist anymore. Congratulations.

In fact, in certain circumstances it's actually a pretty good evidence that something "interesting" is being said and someone is trying to silence it, like how searching for grayed out comments in HN is the first thing I do in threads like this.

Thiel is not supportung Trump because of Trump's racism and sexism. He is supporting Trump because of his policies and disruptive capacity. This is the difference between supporting a candidate and attributing everything a candidate does to the supporter.

Hillary Clinton is a war criminal by many standards. Should all Clinton supporters sever ties with YC?

If Trump is elected President of the United States will the author disown the United States?

It takes great bravery to allow your beliefs to affect your bottom line. Thiel has demonstrated this bravery by spending his time, money and reputation on Trump.

Now it's Altman’s turn. If he truly believes that "This election is exceptional. Donald Trump represents an unprecedented threat to America", then Marco is correct that supporting Thiel is against his beliefs. Good on Marco for calling it out to us so eloquently.

Obviously, Thiel is very influential and parting ways with him would be a big deal. It's likely it would cost Altman time, money and reputation. It's possible Thiel will hold a grudge and that will have unknown ramifications that might hurt YC and others.

This is why it's brave.

Business leaders often pretend they aren't choosing a side, when they always are. Be brave Altman. We'll support you.

>Be brave Altman. We'll support you

Do you support him whether he cuts ties with Thiel or not?

Character Quality often overlooked: Respectfulness. I definite it as how do we treat people we disagree with?

We lack this in society as a whole. Respectfulness

I see it as a good thing that Trump is so foolishly blatant - You can SEE all the filth - It's all right there in plain sight. His ego is so huge, he couldn't even censor himself if his life depended on it; he is the perfect public figure.

I believe that Trump is uniquely unfit for office, more than any major presidential candidate I've seen in my lifetime.

I believe, though I cannot prove, that should Trump be elected, he stands a well better than average chance of being an existential threat to our republic. So I do not take this election lightly at all.

That being said, I believe Mr. Thiel may say has he likes and spend his money where he likes, though his choice of candidate, like for many Republican voters, disappoints me greatly. I do not believe he speaks for YC in doing so, and I do not expect YC to terminate their relationship with him for him doing so.

I see no shame in this.

Was somebody under the impression that there are no conservatives involved in funding and creating startups?

If you live in a world where you think you only have to deal with people who follow your political ideology, I feel sorry for you.

Who stands to lose more if Theil were to no longer be affiliated with YC? Is YC a social endeavor with a political agenda, or a program for entrepreneurs?

If the former, might want to tell the investors. Start with John Meriwether. ;)

When Barbara Bush and I are on the same side of this it's not a political purge, it's a matter of basic human decency. The Trump candidacy is a litmus test of basic civil sanity. Supporting it is insane.

Sam Altman has already stated what Peter is allowed to say (and presumably think) as a condition of his continued association with YC. There was a recent spate of articles by and about Sam Altman, including a probing interview by his brother (presumably in lieu of a blatantly self-serving monologue by the subject). So we kind of know Sam's viewpoint and his tendency toward defining who can say and do what at YC and on HN. I would call that shameful in a public commons, but this is a private enterprise, and Sam is free to set the boundaries in Sam's world.

I am an outsider, but I don't understand why Wikileaks doesn't leak into CNN.com and friends in the MSM?

or something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY ?

Nothing bad sticks to the democrat candidate. I'm not talking about proofs, but about headlines that get written all the time for clicks. Where are those for Hillary? Not on CNN, nytimes, etc.

Every day there is a new headline about how Trump winning would destroy the universe. Where should I read the news? Politico? Infowars?

>Every day there is a new headline about how Trump winning would destroy the universe.

I'm also an outsider (Canadian). It seems like an endless stream of anti-Trump news everywhere I go. Yet HN had a thread just the other day with people commenting about how "unfair" things are towards Clinton. I don't get it, either.

Shame on this political shaming. Not everyone has to agree with you.

Someone had to do it. What a delightful clickbait subject to remind people that you exist.

is this a call for censorship, exclusion, and ostracism on the basis of political preferences? shame on the author.

During extensive, complex discussions like these, it becomes readily apparent that while the HN/Reddit-style threaded text forum is the best format I know of, it's still woefully inadequate.

There will soon be 1000 comments on this page- none of which are merely simple thoughts. Nobody could read them all and still maintain a cohesive, holistic perspective on all the issues presented. Most of the comments themselves splinter into anecdotal tangents, and surely every comment has overlap with another comment here. But, should any comment be omitted from consideration? I think not, because every opinion presented holds unique value. We, as mere humans, just can't consider each one individually. Not at internet scale.

While it's a precarious use of ML, we really do need computational synthesis and analysis to draw trends from these discussions. We all know ML recognizes and reinforces biases- so we shouldn't be training a classifier by using HN's sentiment as a baseline. That said, we need a solution here, ideally soon. Until that happens, I won't be wasting my time dropping 2 cents into a bottomless void.

> every opinion presented holds unique value.

Most of the comments here are actually repeating the same few opinions over and over in different words. For example, about half the top-level comments here are a variation of "shame on the author".

A system that consolidates duplicated sentiments would probably cut this page down to size, but ML is not even remotely up to the task. A system based on human review could do so, however.

I don't think that a person, president or not, is to play a crucial role. Society has a dynamic in which a president is only a mirror for you to watch yourself. Perhaps the mirror show you something that you don't want to see and you can try to clean it or hide it, but that mirror just show how society is for real. I sincerely and literaly think that we should get used to watch candidates for presidency to be nuked in tv, as in a big brother show, no more secrets allowed. We should see clearly and understand deeply that we are just human animals and nothing more. A candidate for presidency should be able to show some kind of humor, witful ideas, clear thinking, some catastrophic behaviour and be able to inspire some trust. I believe that nothing more can be expected.

For those looking forward for a better future, the challenge is not in choosing your president, but in becoming your best friend.

Any of you can be the best president, I am sure of it, just awake, get up in the morning and see yourself in the mirror for real.

Edited for clarity of mind.

So if I publicly attack a Y Combinator legend the HN community gets to fight about politics?

In that case, I'll just leave this debate between Hedges and Reicht for everyone here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr4cXH3Fil8

I would encourage people to look at the similarities between Sam's decision not to punish Thiel and this: https://www.gofundme.com/reopen-a-nc-republican-office-2ukup...

Bit off topic: does $1.25 million really seem like that much money? I mean I accept it is a huge sum of money in a normal context, but in this context (donations to political parties) is it really exceptional?

I mean I've heard of wealthy men losing multiples of that at Poker.

If I'm reading https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/candidate.php?id=N0002386... correctly, it's a good 1.5% of all pro-Trump money spending (currently $84,640,147) in this election.

I was one of those "I loathe your opinion but I will defend to the death your right to say it" people when it came to Trump right up until now.

He's started claiming that if he loses the election, it'll be because of voter fraud, which is indefensible.

I don't know why there is so much hype on debating if companies got sexism and racism or other oppression issues: they do have some, period. And it should be strongly improved.

If we pretend the contrary, we really have to question ourselves.

Wit so I'm supposed to be enraged because Y Combinator won't cut ties with an associate who supported a candidate some people don't like? There's no shame here. Hillary's got her own dirt too so should everyone who associates with either candidate be ashamed?

There's nothing heinous or shameful about supporting a presidential candidate; I don't want either to be President but it's ridiculous to hold Y Combinator accountable for an associate's political choice, those people expecting otherwise should be ashamed.

Can someone help me follow the logic whereby its "facist" or "hypocritical" for people to find fault in someone who is supporting an admitted sexual predator and racist?

Trump support is not free-speech, tolerance issue or diversity issue, it's political issue.

As I understand it, Thiel is one of the 10 or so part time partners in Ycombinator. He is also board member of Facebook, so shame on Facebook.

I don't think Thiel's involvement puts large shame on Y Combinator, but at the same time I don't condone political activism that tries to isolate Thiel and his money by shaming his partners. Business is not politically neutral zone.

no one should be shamed or fired for their political beliefs. go fuck yourself marco.org

Because of these pussified posts, I am voting for Trump.

> [Altman] If Peter said some of the things Trump says himself, he would no longer be part of Y Combinator.

In the US, at least since Citizens United, money is speech. By donating to his campaign and vocally supporting Trump, Thiel IS SAYING what Trump says.

Also, Thiel is no friend to freedom of speech or freedom of the press. That should have disqualified him earlier, even before this whole Trump affair.

> Thiel IS SAYING what Trump says

No, he is supporting his presidential bid. That's all.

I personally respect, and am thankful for the fact that people exist that have opinions that differ, even a lot, from mine. Especially on moral issues. I find it pretty immoral to have too much faith in ones moral framework. I will do business with anyone especially those with different political or other opinions than mine, they are usually more interesting conversations.

Maybe YC is worried that if they boot Thiel, and Trump wins, he'll be vindictive enough and powerful enough to crush YC. Like, it would be a real shame if the Attorney General started looking into Fair Housing violations by AirBnB, or if Dropbox suddenly lost the government connections it's been cultivating by putting Condi Rice on their board.

If Trump wins I suspect that the H1B program would be an obvious target for him.

And from experience in the UK referendum some recent immigrants are going to get killed as a result of the way Trump is poisoning the political arena.

I strongly believe that businesses should stay out of politics - no matter what the rhetorics and controversies are. They are built by efforts of lot of different people and someone at the top shouldn't get to decide what is good for everybody. It's bad enough that editorial boards of major news media goes out and openly endorse political leader. That completely destroys their neutralism and ability to serve news without bias. Its equally bad that that outgoing president who is supposed to stay out of politics is now using his powerful position to change the election.

Fundamental principle of democracy is that you have to trust the people to make the right choice. If you can't then you shouldn't have democracy. The argument that the big powerful entities are expected to forcefully shut down the candidate because he/she is deemed not "normal" or morally corrupt is bad for democracy. You need to let people decide that with their vote.

So the last thing we want is businesses start firing their employees for holding different political beliefs. May be there is a red line somewhere, for example, real Nazi party coming in to existence without any pretense whatsoever. It would make sense then if POTUS, businesses and major media openly rebels against it. But outside of those extreme cases where do you draw that line is anyone's guess and convenience. Y-Combinator is doing absolutely the right thing for the current situation, IMO.

PS: I do not endorse any candidates at this point. Above statements are NOT the endorsement for Trump or anyone else. This is what I believe should be the core principles for functional democracy that allows for different opinions.

I disagree with Marco on the fact that keeping Thiel at YC is against diversity. Sam Altman is accepting to work with someone with opposite political views, which require a lot of courage.

How can you stand for diversity if you refuse to accept to work with people who have different opinions (and opposing opinions)?

> one wonders what YC would do if PT invested in an app that celebrated and enabled racism, bigotry, assault.

https://twitter.com/lautenbach/status/788197878133030912

Did or would Sam Altman support Brendan Eich when he was mozilla's CEO and accused of homophobia?

This is a free speech country. People can associate with whomever they want. Celebrate that we can say and write deplorable things to one another. Peter Thiel can do what he wants with his millions, celebrate that. You can moralize about how nuts Thiel is to do that, I celebrate you for that.

On the right, I've been told God will judge me if I don't vote Trump (not biblical - I told them where to go.) On the left, I've seen violence and vile hate directed at trumpsters.

Everyone calm down, please. It is possible for reasonable people to disagree 100% on Trump v. Clinton. Don't try to ruin people's lives or be a hater over someone's opinions. Other people have dimensions, and life is never black and white. Always be civil, just shake your head in cases like this and say, "well, I simply don't know where your head is on this one."

We can settle our disagreements at the ballot box.

Disclaimer: I'm not voting for Trump or Clinton for (in my opinion) obvious reasons, and I'm not emotional about either.

Response to Sam Altman's post:

A Trump presidency would be a disaster for the American economy. He has no real plan to restore economic growth.

The truth is that no one knows for sure what will be best for the American economy for the next four years. There are too many variables and too much unpredictability to know for certain what a Trump president would look like.

His racist, isolationist policies would divide our country, and American innovation would suffer.

This is a fallacy. The country is already divided over immigration, and has been for a long time. The prevalence of this kind of fallacious rhetoric from elites like Sam Altman is precisely why the nationalist faction chose Trump to lead them. In order to counter this kind of deceptive propaganda, they needed someone willing to use equally powerful rhetoric in their favor.

Also, the claim that his policies are racist is simply not true. They are not racist.

But the man himself is even more dangerous than his policies. He's erratic, abusive, and prone to fits of rage.

Sam cites no evidence and makes no argument to back up these exceptional claims. I have been watching Trump for an entire year, and I have not observed any erratic or "abusive" behavior. At least, nothing exceptional that wasn't already directed at him. Sure, he savaged his GOP rivals with name-calling and theatrics. But they had already called him a clown, a sideshow, a circus. So it's OK to call Trump names but not OK to for him to respond in kind?

Trump supporters see this hypocrisy and understand that Trump is doing what he needs to do to win the election.

He represents a real threat to the safety of women, minorities, and immigrants, and I believe this reason alone more than disqualifies him to be president. My godson’s father, who is Mexican by birth and fears being deported or worse, is who convinced me to spend a significant amount of time working on this election at the beginning of this year, when Trump still seemed like an unlikely possibility.

More blatantly fallacious reasoning. Because a Mexican national fears deportation (why?), suddenly Trump is a threat to all women minorities and immigrants?

Ridiculous fallacy. This is why Trump must use the rhetoric he does, because his opponents are so full of shit that they don't even realize it.

Trump shows little respect for the Constitution, the Republic, or for human decency, and I fear for national security if he becomes our president.

I'll grant that Trump shows little explicit respect for the Constitution. But Hillary doesn't either. No one's respecting the constitution because no one (Sam Altman) has been demanding it. There's nothing in the Constitution that guarantees immigration to anyone who wants it, which so far is the only issue he has identified that has not been a grossly biased representation.

Speaking of which, "human decency." Again, another extreme claim with absolutely NO argument or evidence to back it up. Altman boldy claims that Trump shows little respect for human decency, and yet anyone who has actually watched Trump interact with his supporters all year long shows that he is overflwing with of decency. People love him, he makes them feel good just to be around him. Here Altman is appealing to popular prejudice about Trump, which has been reinforced repeatedly by others like him in his echo chamber.

It's one thing to not waste time justifying claims for which the evidence is abundant and easily found. But there's no such evidence for these claims. There's a lot of other people saying similarly bad things that also have no evidence. So there's a clear reason why this perception exists. But I see no real argument.

As for fearing for national security? Again just another emotional appeal with no justification. What about Hillary actively antagonizing Russia? Speaking recklessly of no-fly zones over Syria, which our own Generals claim would mean going to war with Russia. This fear just seems ignorant.

Though I don’t ascribe all positions of a politician to his or her supporters, I do not understand how one continues to support someone who brags about sexual assault, calls for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the US, or any number or other disqualifying statements. I will continue to try to change both of their minds.

First thing: if Sam Altman wants to understand, then he needs to learn how to listen. Trump never bragged about sexual assault, and to claim he did is a lie. Everyone repeating this is also lying. If you actually want to understand, the first thing you need to do is admit your interpretation of this is wrong. If you can't do that, you'll never make any progress towards understanding.

As for a complete and total shutdown of Muslims entering the US? Immigration is not a right. There's no amendment that says anyone anywhere has the right to come to this country. We have the right (and some would say duty) to restrict entry to anyone for any reason. The fact is that Muslims tend to hold very different values than Americans (Sam Altman might want to ask what Peter thinks about Muslim's beliefs on homosexuality), and there there are Muslim organizations who have made an explicit goal of destroying Western European civilization through a combination of settlement, violence, and propaganda. You can't say that about any other major religion in the world.

And so of all the "basket of deplorables", that is the one I will admit to. I am not racist, at least, no more than anyone can be in the US given the amount of race-baiting done by corporate media. I am not sexist. I'm not homophobic or anti-semitic.

But I am an Islamaphobe. Islam scares me. The religion itself scares me as does the activities of its leaders-- the so-called moderates as well as the extremists. It scares me more than any other major religion in the world. No other religion of significant size has the same combination of intolerance, subversiveness, violence, conquest, and hostility to those outside the faith. I look at the character of Islamic civilization, and I know without a doubt that I do would not want to live under those values. While I totally understand that it's possible to interpret the Quran and Hadith in less violent and aggressive ways, and that most Muslims are just ordinary people who want to live happy and healthy lives, that's not the trend in the world today. There's not a single Islamic country that I would want to live in.

You won't see me harassing anyone or trying to deny American Muslims their 1st amendment rights. It's not hatred I feel. I'll never condone "hate speech" or "hate crimes." I do not fear ordinary Muslims, individually. I am not even opposed to having a solid and stable minority of American Muslims in perpetuity. But I most emphatically do not think we should be inviting substantial numbers of them into the country. We are not prepared to assimilate them and once there are sufficient numbers of them in the country they will start agitating to impose their political will on everyone else, which is likely to include political violence.

From these discussions, are we to take it that YC will not invest in founders who support Trump?

YC seems to be sticking with Thiel, so founders should be safe regardless of their views. As it probably should be.

I would hope that YC already avoids founders who act like Trump though.

According to the USSC, money in politics is speech. Now, Trump's speech is also Thiel's speech. The only remaining question should be if YC partners are able to keep that position while saying and supporting harmful and often false ideas.

We cannot deny the overwhelming amount of value P. Thiel and M. Arment has brought to this world. Politics is ugly and divides people instead of bringing them together. The Hacker News community is all about technological progress, which is based on science, and as such, do not let your subjectivity cloud your judgment.

Do you think the world would be a better place by removing Thiel because of his political position? Asking to fire Thiel is as insane as asking to fire the 40% of Americans backing Trump (based on latest poll results: http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/latest-polls-show-tr...)

I wish you guys would put all your vigorous efforts on revamping the political system than pointing fingers at invaluable people.

And this just out - adding to my other post:

http://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/788121240036896768

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html This surely is an off-topic on HN.

I'm distrustful of anyone who has a headline (or placard) that starts with the words "Shame on ..." It usually prefaces some soft-headed socialist sentiment.

Is it so crazy to say that Thiel is free to support whatever candidate he wants... While Graham and Altman are free to choose who they do business with?

I am not a US citizen and definitely not familiar with all its laws and rules and such. I do wonder, if one thinks endorsing Trump is punishable, shouldn't they bring up a legal case? If it is not against the law, why cannot it be done?

If Trump is a new Hitler, shouldn't there be a legal way to put him out of the election? If his campaign is legal, why all the fuss? Just don't vote for him. Isn't that exactly why you Americans hold elections?

You want democracy and elections, you got to live with the outcomes. You may get what you don't want.

> Just don't vote for him. Isn't that exactly why you Americans hold elections?

This is a loaded question and a good one at that. To put it simply, the presidential election is particularly unique compared to other elections in the US because of several intertwining factors.

1) Unless under exceptional circumstances, the US presidential voting system will always devolve into a 2 party race. Because of this, "choice" is much more of an illusion than people are taught to believe in the US.

2) The manner of choosing party representatives (Trump, Clinton) can be gamed or rigged. For the parties, this is to unify support and strengthen the chance that the president will at least be "on your side" (left, right) even if you don't support all of that candidates particular stances. This sounds great, but this tosses all of the niche voters, which is a broad net because people are forced to be in one of these two parties to not have a wasted vote in the presidential election, to the side and forces them to pick a lesser of two evils.

3) The presidential election is unique in that it uses an electoral college system. When you vote, you are not voting for the president. You are voting for someone to vote on your behalf and hoping that they follow through (yes, oversimplified but it is how it works at the most basic level). This is why you can predict the outcome of the race based on just how a few swing states vote. It's also why your vote doesn't really matter if you are not in one of these swing states.

And these are just the obvious problems in the __presidential election__ system in the US. Voting for representatives, Senate and House, are just as bad in other ways (gerrymandering being the big issue). So no, it's not really as simple as not voting for Trump (or any other candidate for that matter).

On another note, most Americans do not understand how the system truly works and the flaws. On top of that, if you live inside the US or obtain most of your news via US media outlets, I've found that there is a huge bias and attempt to ignore certain realities. As someone who works and lives abroad consuming news that's not even in English, it was clear early on that Trump was going to win the primaries and that Clinton in particular would have a hard time against Trump. The vocal reaction to the current situation is exactly what you should expect.

I don't know what the right thing for YC to do here is. But whatever it is can wait until after the election.

The last thing you want is to enable Trump to concoct a narrative that "crooked Hillary" is forcing businesses to discriminate against Trump supporters.

Trump is an existential threat to democracy and Thiel is disgusting for supporting him, but it looks like he will lose. However he is claiming that the election will be rigged against him. This is incredibly dangerous and YC firing Thiel could be like pouring gasoline onto a fire.

Shame on us for making this post to the front page.

Outrage, one way or the other, generates engagement. News outlets know it, now so do we.

If there's some value in the discussion, it is that most of us actually do know people with differing political views, and we somehow learn to live and work together.

Maybe Y Combinator considers "unsupporting" Ellen Pao important enough to side with Peter Thiel and, indirectly, Donald Trump.

As with Title I vs Title II and other crap like this, this is just a symptom of a bigger problem: we have only two choices. Both times, YC got dragged into a situation where people demand they sever ties and punish people for their political views.

In our first-past-the-post system, even if Hitler and Mao were the nominees of the 2 parties, would the 3rd party get even 15% of the vote?

https://twitter.com/GregMozart/status/788448482264768512

I am very happy with YC's decision not to sever ties with people based on their support of a political position that a large (over 20%) portion of the population seems to have. The way that was done with Brendan Eich at Mozilla. There should be some separation between the workplace and a person's personal politics.

These people themselves are not killers, rapists, they do not exercise their own power to coerce others etc. They don't endorse every single bad thing their candidate does.

For the record, I think Trump is not very interested in learning about nuances, half the time it's not clear what he is really saying, almost never reconsiders his position, instead he just easily disavows his own statements, and that alone disqualifies him. But should I cut business ties with every Hillary supporter because I believe they are for brinksmanship and escalating the threat of a nuclear war with Russia? Many are. But that has such a small effect on the good we can do together, in the actual sphere of our collaboration. If I want to do something about the doomsday clock, cutting ties with my coworkers is very, very far down the list of effective things to do.

Even in your personal life, realize that arguing about politics is like arguing about astronomy -- the odds are overwhelming that you can't really change anything in the current election. So if your significant other likes a different baseball team, that's not nearly as important as shared values about how you're going to raise your children, or basic respect to human beings, or other things in your real life.

I don't live in California, and I know New York State (where I live) will vote Democratic as it always has, same as Cali. But we embrace political diversity much more than California, it seems. It may be more OK to publicly disinvite Douglas Crockford from a conference for his own personal behavior (I personally think it is ridiculous, but still), than to disinvite someone for mainstream political views or support for another candidate.

But as I said, this is all a symptom of our first-past-the-post system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

So by Marcos own logic does anyone who support Hillary support slut shaming 12 year old girls who have been raped?

The most damning thing to me about this is that Peter Thiel is content to let YC take the flack for him. He knows he's damaging them; that partners are walking away from YC, and it's down to him.

A decent person would walk away at that point, to save YC and take the heat on themselves.

He doesn't. Which makes it all the more odd that sama will still go to bat for someone he a) disagrees with and b) wouldn't do the same in return.

He should support the political ostracism by making it easier for everyone by ostracising himself? What an odd definition you must have of "decent".

The political ostracism has happened - people are already distancing themselves from him. It's a given here.

I'm saying he should limit the damage of it to himself, rather than letting his friends be dragged down with him, yes.

By forcing YC to stand with him, he has dragged them into his fight and undone a lot of their previous good work.

Surely there are adversaries so fearsome that the noble thing is to cut ties and avoid collateral damage, but a mob of angry partisans on the internet shouldn't be one of them.

To do that would mean giving up on civil political disagreement and sets a terrible precedent.

I don't think any good work is being undone here but perhaps you could say some political capital is being spent defending the free and open exchange of ideas.

Irony...advocating discrimination against Trump supporters because you believe they advocate discrimination.

Racism, sexism, calling the election "rigged", saying you are going to prosecute your opponent, accusing them of being on drugs, bragging about sexual assault...

These are not political views. It's just absurdity, and supporting such a person with $1.25 million absolutely makes me question your judgement.

now there is no difference between you and the so called trump supporters. You are asking others to take a stand on behalf of your moral values or bunch who share your values. Come to the developing countries who call themselves democracy and you can see it be absued by their supporters who have the very same notion as you. There is no difference between them(some are uneducated) and you(educated).I hope you are one those guys who can be brainwashed easily or there is no difference between you and those who get brainwashed. Either make your system strong or soon a combination of adam sutler(Vendetta movie) and father's mask(Equlibrium movie) or person with veil will screw everyone using the very same system.

While I don't agree w/ Marco on all his points, I think Thiel should go.

Trump/Thiel are racists against multiculturalism. This is the life blood of California and the tech sector. I say this as an old white guy.

The size of this thread, and the split of opinions, is a clear indication to me that this goes beyond the single decision of "Whether or not keep Thiel on board".

I would like to bring your attention to that bigger issue (sorry if this comment is useless to you in making up your mind about Thiel).

I consider myself a transhumanist, a futurologist, a technologist, that sort of thing. I got into this about 3 years ago. And I've done a lot of thinking/reading on this topic, and I've tried my best to gauge the perception about technology in the eyes of non-techies, especially economists, and politicians.

And my conclusion is that, except for a few, economists and politicians are hopelessly lagging behind the fast pace of socio-economic change. I also predicted that within a matter of years, we're headed for a serious social disruption of an unpredictable nature.

Here is my thesis: 2016 is the beginning of that socially disruptive era. And it's all due to technological progress and automation-driven-unemployment!

If you think it's only about the 2016 US election, and things will settle down within weeks after November 8 election of Clinton, you would be misguided. Of course the election fever will settle down, but not the frustration behind it, which is growing like a frog in a slowly boiling water. I can tell you right now, the 2018 election season would be worse, and 2020 season would be far worse!

Case in point: Have you seen the statistics related to self-driving cars and trucks? Arguably it'll put 3 million truckers out of work. This will happen within a matter of months, not years, not decades. What do you think would happen when all of a sudden 3 million people are without means to put food on their table? Something that would make you forget Trump!

You might ask, we don't have self-driving cars yet why do we have social disruption? Well, self-driving cars is a poster-child of automation. It's something that's easy to understand and relate to. There is a ton of subtle, behind-the-scenes, automation going on, that is indirectly making harder for humans to utilize their skills for making money. Smart-phone and related apps, news article bots, automated warehousing like Amazon Kivy, Uber/Lyft, Airbnb, Etsy, vertical farming, solar and wind power, on, and on, and on. But more importantly:

Social disruption is not a step function but a logistic curve. It's not that we'll have zero disruption until self-driving trucks are available for retail purchasing, and after that we'll have full disruption. Instead, it's a sign of things to come, and we're off the zero-level, and slowly rising up the S-curve of the logistic function.

Please think of this problem in a bigger context. If technologists cannot do this, economists and politicians definitely can't.

true tolerance tolerates the intolerant.

This exemplifies a disturbing tactic of the left, demonizing anyone who holds differing political views, attempting to turn them into social pariahs, causing them whatever harm they're able to within the law.

I happen to think that Hillary Clinton is a criminal who belongs in federal prison. I think the only reason she's not being prosecuted is that the current administration is corrupt, and views laws as weapons to be used against political opponents rather than a set of rules to be applied equally to all citizens. I am of the opinion that her "foundation" that accepted "donations" from countries that had business before the US State Department while she was running, it, is basically a money-laundering operation for bribes. I believe the woman who accused her husband of viciously and violently raping her in a hotel room was telling the truth, and I think those Democrats who are throwing fits over Trump's crude statements and sketchy allegations of his impropriety are hypocrites, considering the way they defended Bill Clinton and elevated him to the status of Elder Party Statesman after he left office.

And yet I think people should be free to publicly support Hillary Clinton's bid for POTUS without having their livelihoods come under attack.

This is exactly why as a former independent I am going with the Republicans this time around. Although I do tend to side with them on more issues, it's the way the Dems conduct themselves that has completely turned me off of them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY

It's sentiments like this that still give Trump a serious shot at winning, even if more scandals about him are unveiled. I hate both but am voting for Clinton, but can very much understand your position.

The whole "basket of deplorables", virtue signalling, moral superiority thing turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Cheers. I am absolutely sick of these McCarthy-esque witchhunts foisted on us. That combined with the recent attacks on freedom of speech have me very wary of the left in general this time around.

I was rooting for Rand Paul and planned on voting for Gary Johnson in the election but the blatant corruption and criminality that has come out exposing Clinton, her laundry list of crimes, the lack of prosecution by the DoJ, and the complete bias in media coverage has me in the Trump camp this time around.

It really makes me sick.

Are we going to talk about the election on Hacker News now? Seems most submissions deemed political have been blackholed, correct? And I think that's fine. But if we're opening the gates, lets open them wide and not just post the same garbage that can be read anywhere else.

For example, let's talk about something ignored by most of the mainstream like this excellent investigative report that came out yesterday. It concerns those Chicago riots where Sanders supporters supposedly committed violent acts and shut down the Trump speech there. Well turns out that this and many other violent acts, riots, and even possibly acts of terrorism (which is defined as violence in the furtherance of political aims, which this was), were coordinated, organized and paid for by the Clinton campaign itself, all nicely documented with proof in federal disclosure forms showing that the violent rioters were paid Clinton operatives.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/17/new_okeefe...

I voted for Sanders in the primary. I'm voting for Stein in a few weeks. I don't really appreciate politicians hiring people to commit acts of political terrorism and blaming it on Sanders supporters like myself.

So let's talk about this since we are going to talk about politics on HN now.

Excellent point, but to discuss politics on HN is a waste of time as there isn't an easy way to know who you are talking to - the same type of operatives you refer too are also crawling HN and pretty much every other popular social media space. Marco is either completely oblivious to the phenomena (and has bought into their narrative hook, line and sinker) or perhaps he himself is also artificially incentivized.

The same could be assumed about Sam Altman who yesterday wrote an equally damning article (damning to himself IMO).

I am not accusing anybody, and certainly would not and am not jumping to a conclusion based on a single article - and would welcome Marco and Sam's rebuttal - but am instead looking at the larger picture here... there are reports[1] of popular YouTubers being offered $$$ to endorse Hilary and so it's not too much of a stretch to assume they would also pay prominent people in tech too (and not to mention Hollywood as well of course).

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIjpp270dI0

It seems you just accused sama of taking payment from Clinton's campaign for his blog post yesterday. I know you said you are not, but you did.

This is why politics should be banned from HN until the election is over.

Being aware of a certain possibility, and pointing out this possibility for others to see, is not an accusation - particularly because I said and as you acknowledged it was not intended as accusation nor did I jump to that conclusion personally.

So Trump has a lot of problems, but it looks like he is not corrupt. Hillary, on the other hand, is fully with corruption. I really don't like/agree with YC priorities (I'm not an American, which is even more disturbing to see someone that laughs about killing others country president been endorsed/elected)

Are you joking? Trump is _transparently_ corrupt. The Trump Foundation exists to serve as a tax shield, funneling donor money to Trump and his family personally. C.f. the allegations of corruption toward Clinton and the Clinton Foundation, which are laughably indistinct and incomparable. If corruption is what you care about, then Hillary Clinton is _inarguably_ the superior candidate.

So stuff against Trump is proven 100% for reals and stuff against Clinton is mere allegations? Hmmmm.

I'm not a Trump supporter by any stretch of the imagination, but I do find it fascinating how easily people manage to rationalize things.

I'm sure there are TONS of folks who would decry a person for being a climate denier who would then perform the exact same mental process to 'overlook' whatever problems exist with the Clintons.

> So stuff against Trump is proven 100% for reals and stuff against Clinton is mere allegations? Hmmmm.

Well there's obviously a spectrum but I think it's absolutely inarguable that Trump's foundation is a tax dodge and that Trump is transparently corrupt; and I think at worst you can say that Clinton made some bad choices, but yes absolutely the allegations against her are without proof.

> I'm sure there are TONS of folks who would decry a person for being a climate denier who would then perform the exact same mental process to 'overlook' whatever problems exist with the Clintons.

Of course nobody is overlooking problems, and your attempts at equivocation are transparently concern trolling. But it's pretty inarguable that "whatever problems exist with the Clintons" are speculative and completely incomparable with "whatever problems exist with Trump".

> think at worst you can say that Clinton made some bad choices

The Director of the FBI said exactly that, but that there was no malicious intent and thus no crime. Why an investigative body is making a recommendation about charges notwithstanding, when it comes to national secrets, nobody else gets the benefit of the doubt re: mens rea, it's generally interpreted as strict liability. Why did former Secretary Clinton get a seemingly free pass on this one, while members of the rank-and-file military do not? I suspect it's because they're in the rank-and-file.

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/292064-troops-using-clinto...

I don't understand how Americans don't care about Hillary's lies. (actually, I do, it's called mass media manipulation, but you guys, of all modern societies in the world, should be one of few capable of fighting it).

Hillary Clinton simple says that she made a mistake and nobody asks why did she used a private email server? I think this is a huge trap, but would things go a little better for Trump if he admits that it was all a misunderstanding and he is a reformed man now?

It's basically just like Carl Sagan said:

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/85171-one-of-the-saddest-les...

EDIT: That said, I don't NECESSARILY believe that the Clintons have absolutely, for sure been up to no good. But I am a little suspicious, given the facts that the FBI found. There's plenty of stuff that they could do to exonerate themselves. I just suspect it won't happen, especially since the FBI has seen fit to say "no bad intent so no crime"

How is it corrupt to laugh about killing a dictator/murderer in a publicly-known military action? It might be in bad taste, but it's not corrupt.

Also, you should read more about Trump: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/06/ho...

The funny thing is that the same corrupt media that paints others presidents as "dictators" and "murderers" is helping Killary, painting Trump with tons of colors.

While I agree with a lot of what Marco says in spirit, there is a HUGE point that Altman makes as well:

> The way we got into a situation with Trump as a major party nominee in the first place was by not talking to people who are very different than we are. […]

This one sentence I think fully encapsulates why the Republican base has gone to the extremes it has. They don't give a damn about who Trump is or the awful things he does because he is listening to them, something the coastal intellectuals haven't done for decades.

Speaking as someone from one of the flyover states, I'd probably be supporting Trump too had I not come around to a lot more progressive viewpoints. The fact is yes a lot of what these people believe is wrong and backward, but just ignoring them and pretending that having the middle of the country doing nothing but hard labor and drugs is ok is exactly what got us here. Nobody gives a damn about the middle states outside of election year. Every year rural economies tank harder and harder but because it isn't a sexy problem like Shale Oil nobody gives a shit.

These people have been marginalized, ignored, and abandoned during some of the hardest economic transitional periods, and they're tired of it. You'd be voting for any candidate who at least gave the passing appearance of giving a damn about you were you left in that situation.

Edit: Misattributed the quote.

I think you get a lot of it right here, and nobody wants to acknowledge that for some reason. I would disagree that Trump is listening to people in the "flyover" states, but rather what he is doing is signaling that he's not in the coastal elite in-group. I'd bet Trump has very little idea how badly folks are hurting in red states, nor does he really care.

But what has happened is that those people have heard every political candidate say basically the same politically correct stuff irrespective of their D or R flavor and then once elected do basically nothing to help.

Now someone comes along who doesn't sound anything like the previous D or R flavored politicians (who never helped, despite their promises to) and TADA! "He knows and understands our problems" not because he does in any way, but simply because he sounds different.

To be clear: I'm absolutely sure Trump doesn't understand a damn thing about middle-state people. He just isn't outright dismissing them and their problems, and look what it's done for him! That's the scary part.

Not even just ignoring large chunks of the country, but actively arguing that their problems don't exist and that anyone who thinks otherwise is just making excuses for racism: https://baselinescenario.com/2016/10/17/you-cant-get-there-f...

Correct, this is huge and cannot be overstated.

Also that's an excellent article, thanks.

Please, do the right thing, and don't take it down again. https://www.reddit.com/r/startups/comments/582t9v/y_combinat...

This doesn't belong on HN. People should be allowed to make their political choices as they please & as is their right to do so. It isn't YC voting in the election and YC doesn't compel people to vote a certain way.

Taking down or not is up to the site operator. HN is a privately run site. The operators can decide which content they want or don't to see on their site.

So there's no "right thing" here, really.

Yes it is but there is some irony that HN are ok to defend Theil based on freedom of speech but they're are not extending the same courtesy to Marco for criticizing them about it. Seems HN maybe as thin skinned as Trump.

Well, Marco is free to publish his blog. At least I didn't see any HN operatives swooping in and taking his blog offline ;)

Freedom of speech protects you from the government. It does not force someone to publish your blog posts on their website if they dont' want to.

This still shouldn't be on HN. I'm not from the US and I am totally fed up with both pro and anti Trump/Clinton propaganda that spews out to cover all of the world, and I don't want to see it here, at least particularly when it's just "stories about politics, or crime, or sports" and particularly not "evidence of some interesting new phenomenon." as the HN guidelines put it.

I'd rather fight for Thiel's right to say and work for his opinion.

I'd agree, with a tiny caveat. I couldn't care less about US politics, think neither candidate is likely to change much that affects me or mine, and think the US president's power is vastly overstated.

Where I disagree is that I think the real problem lies in the reactionary posts, like Pao's Medium post and this one. These I think are a very real threat to me and mine.

These ideas - that things that aren't focussed on hacking code together to create businesses, that distract not from adjacent to the topic but from within, these are the problem.

That's the crazy part here to me. Forget the politics, the people reacting to politics and wanting things in the HN sphere to change are (trying?) to have very real impacts on things I care about, and none of that is, AFAICT, in any way shape or form positive.

Trump, Clinton and the US election hasn't helped one person hack together any code, and neither has the post linked to, but only one of them is part of the industry that is directly involved in hacking together any code, and that part, that part is the issue.

He certainly has the right to his opinion, just as people here have the right to critize his opinion.

And apparently enough people think that it should be on HN that the topic continues to appear even after flaggings.

If the community flags it, the community flags it. I haven't flagged any of these Thiel stories until now. I've seen enough the past few days. I get what people feel, think, and [don't] support. I don't care to keep reading this over and over again.

"Can't we just drone the guy?" - Hillary Clinton, on Assange.

Haven't seen that one. May I have a source, please?

FBI report. Of course, it's a "joke" that Hillary "can't recall." Even though, "The statement drew laughter from the room which quickly died off when the Secretary kept talking in a terse manner, sources said. Clinton said Assange, after all, was a relatively soft target, “walking around” freely and thumbing his nose without any fear of reprisals from the United States. Clinton was upset about Assange’s previous 2010 records releases, divulging secret U.S. documents about the war in Afghanistan in July and the war in Iraq just a month earlier in October, sources said."

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/hillary-clinton-julian...

Snopes must be having a pretty high traffic month: http://www.snopes.com/julian-assange-drone-strike/

The original source is not an FBI report and you are completely misinformed. An unknown blog which contains nothing but right-wing hit pieces claims to have anonymous sources in the State Department. Until I hear this quote echoed by professional journalists with the integrity to verify their sources, I will take it with the grain of salt it deserves.

"completely misinformed"

https://vault.fbi.gov/hillary-r.-clinton/hillary-r.-clinton-...

"“Clinton could not recall a specific process for nominating a target for a drone strike and recalled much debate pertaining to the concurrence process. Clinton knew there was a role for DOD, State and the CIA but could not provide specifics as to what it was. Due to a disagreement between these agencies, Clinton recalled having many discussions related to nominating an individual for a drone strike. When Clinton exchanged classified information pertaining to the drone program internally at State, it was in her office or on a secure call. When Clinton exchanged classified information pertaining to the drone program externally it was at the White House. Clinton never had a concern with how classified information pertaining to the drone program was handled.”"

She's Secretary of State, and parts of the State Department would like to have a say in whether drone strikes are approved. She attests that no formalized process was in place. This is not news to anyone who has been following the situation.

I do not see the name Julian Assange in the above report.

Is the only way for you find the claim she said the above statement true that someone produce a recording of the meeting at State where they were discussing droning people? Strikes me as an unreasonable bar, but hey, do you. Think recordings of everything HRC says would be wise, given her security practices?

I fully expect the State Department to enter into conversations with DOD about formalizing the process for authorizing a drone strike, since the process is currently dangerously discretionary. Again, that's not news.

If the source and quote about Assange are real, they should go to the Washington Post or another reputable outlet with it. Even FOX News hasn't picked this up. It is very easy to conclude this is a fabrication until someone with a better reputation for journalistic integrity runs it.

Are you skipping the, "...Clinton recalled having many discussions related to nominating an individual for a drone strike." portion of the quote on purpose? That's not "formalizing the process for authorizing a drone strike," it's, "choosing targets for a drone strike."

If your standard for whether or not a story has happened is mainstream news coverage, then you and I perceive the world in extremely different ways.

> It's, "choosing targets for a drone strike."

We're talking about the State Department wanting a voice in how we handle people with names like Bin Laden. It does not surprise me at all that they would like to be present for those conversations instead of allowing DOD to act unilaterally. Again, where are you getting names like Julian Assange?

> If your standard for whether or not a story has happened is mainstream news coverage, then you and I perceive the world in extremely different ways.

Mainstream isn't a curse word. It means they have something to lose by screwing up badly at journalism.

True Pundit can print anything it wants. If it comes out that they literally made it up, they can reopen the blog tomorrow under a new name. It is an unknown and untrusted outlet for news. Given the blog's obvious purpose as a serial hit piece against Clinton, it has no more credibility than a blog I spin up tonight called "Bad Stuff I Think Trump Did."

"We're talking about..."

We're also talking about what they were talking about at the time, which includes who specifically to shoot missiles at from a drone. People with names like Obama say people with names like al-Awlaki, among others. People with names like Clinton say people with names like Assange, among others. I get the name Assange from the allegations of State Department employees.

Mainstream also means collusion with Democrats. Want me to link the several hundred correspondence between reporters and various DNC/HRC campaign staff that have been leaked in the last couple weeks? Or do you actually believe that's a real thing even though it's not heavily reported on?

> I get the name Assange from the allegations of State Department employees.

You get the name Assange from the allegations of a previously-unknown and untrusted conservative blog which does nothing of substance other than regularly attack Clinton. Forget FOX News - even Drudge Report refuses to touch this, and that is very telling.

Not all journalism is created equal, and it is nothing short of gullible to take such thinly-vetted sources on faith.

replying to your most recent comment:

1. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/10/03/will-wikileaks-as...

2. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-11/how-julia...

3. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/05/hillary_cl...

4. http://www.torontosun.com/2016/10/03/hillary-clinton-suggest...

5. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10...

i even included a blog.amazon.com link just for you sugar. SOURCE SO FAKE.

Most of these stories are about the fact that WikiLeaks retweeted True Pundit. Importantly, none of them are talking to the source. Were I the source, I would take these articles for what they are - invitations to give my message a broader and more legitimate reach.

Unless, of course, I am also the author of True Pundit and I know they will see through me before I even get an interview.

it's cute watching you continually edit your posts. why do you think "it's fake" is the only logical conclusion to someone not stepping forward as the source of the leak from within the state dept?

surely it's not because they fear a response from "the most transparent administration in history" who just so happens to have prosecuted more people under the espionage act than all other presidents combined. or how people like seth rich ended up.

Why do you think "it's real" is the only logical conclusion to a quote appearing in a right-wing hit blog and nowhere else?

It is a weighty accusation which should be taken with healthy skepticism rather than on faith. In the absence of any sort of journalistic integrity behind the outlet, I'm more inclined to believe it's a play for clicks and outrage.

@etjossem

My source is too small for you. Your sources are too guilty of collusion for me. I'm not going to wait for Amazon's clickbait/advertorial farm to tell me something is true or not. Think it's a coincidence that WaPo has won almost nothing since Bezos took over? Not all journalism is created equal indeed.

Your source is fake. Your source is so fake that not even known alt-right bastions are willing to risk their names on it. When it appears in Breitbart, we'll talk.

your question gets an answer when you answer mine. write your whole thought out at once, learn to proofread. i'm not going to f5 for an hour so you can get your whole thought out.

Take a break, then. Breathe. Think about blind trust and where you are willing to place it.

i'll place trust in wikileaks over the obama administration, clinton campaign, and washington post any day. this conversation is over, have a shitty day.

May yours improve.

The basis for this is claimed to be anonymous "State Department sources," by way of a single blog which does nothing but print right-wing hatchet jobs (True Pundit). Considering the lack of credibility in True Pundit's other posts, it would not shock me if the quote was fabricated.

Please do your research before posting unverified quotes as fact.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12736096 and marked it off-topic.

Shame on Democrats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY

Also:

> Altman’s framing of Thiel’s Trump support as a diversity issue isn’t just incorrect — it’s a harmful distortion that reveals a deep misunderstanding of the tech industry’s actual diversity issues. (I don’t and can’t fully understand our diversity problem, but I at least won’t pretend to.)

What on Earth does this even mean? There's something wrong, I can't have a different opinion, but you can't even understand or explain it? Give me a fucking break.

"Oh no, someone supports a political agenda different from mine. I'd better bring out the cannons and shame anything even remotely related to this person, because I don't agree with his political views!"

Wouldn't this sort of behavior play into Trump's view of 'the system' being rigged against him? Shouldn't individuals have a right to have terrible opinions?

David Duke probably thinks "the system" is rigged against him too... and if you include private institutions in your definition of 'the system' it is and should be. If you hold reprehensible views (though technically legal), then society punishes you. As it has every right to. Trump will complain no matter what, that has zero weight. When someone who cries wolf like Trump isn't complaining, then something is terribly wrong.

> Shouldn't individuals have a right to have terrible opinions?

Yes. And society at large has every right to punish and socially ostracize these who hold abhorrent views.

I feel like technically minded people get mixed up between "we withhold from the government - the institution in our lives with absolute power - the right to silence citizens" and "we expect the private companies/organizations we support to use their influence to better society, not ruin it."

No one is disputing Thiel's right to have terrible opinions, a right he exercises with gusto.

My observation:

- most trump supporters hate the corrupted system, the establishment, but they do not generally hate average hillary supporters.

- most hillary supporters hate trump and trump supporters.

No shame on Marcos, Pao, and anyone else taking a this stupid stance against those who disagree with them. Supporting Trump is perfectly fine, as is supporting Clinton. Calling for the heads of those on opposing sides of the isle is what is truly disgraceful and the whole lot of you acting like petulant children are just pathetic and dangerously misguided.

Another post about purging Trump supporters from the workplace.

Is it SV that causes people to view the world in black and white?

What a surprise, one of the least inclusive industries on the planet is trying to exclude more people.

Wag, fingers, wag, then gawp in wonder at the backfire leading to more trumps.

Many people think this election is different from all the past elections but I'm telling you:

When Trump or Hillary become president nothing will change in your daily lives. Mostly everything you do will remain the same.

So this election matters almost as much your favorite sport team winning some stupid sport which is to say it's a matter of life or death.

I'm getting flashbacks from 2000. I would hope we could learn from history, but alas, history tells us otherwise.

That moment when https://xkcd.com/1357 gets taken too far and people are afraid of voicing anything but the current, popular, politically correct opinions for fear of losing their careers.

honestly, i myself feel like that. i don't voice my general opinion on many threads because there's always a random person that decides that my opinion is a disgrace so it's better to email his employee to let them know.

"We shouldn’t start purging people for supporting the wrong political candidate. That’s not how things are done in this country."

What a crazy idea!

I am glad Trump has run, spoken and reached this point.

We each now know and can remember going forward, if we so choose, how all the people we assign respect to acted when it mattered.

(And we should remember the actual meaningful actions with long term $ impact to the actor. Not get guiled by the arguments skillfully couching intent and rationalizing the actions).

Unemployment is really going to skyrocket if we start firing people for which presidential candidate they vote for.

Tell me one thing YC community: What american politics topics are doing on worldwide tech-focused site?

If anything, this is a silicon valley tech site that is so compelling it has a worldwide audience. Not really the same thing.

Plus if you live somewhere in the world, American politics affects you because we have such immense power.

Good question - a dumb bayes script could get rid of this, think I can hack something together with sklearn in a few hours.

It's literally about the YC community and some of the most well-known personalities in it.

No, shame on Marco, barking orders to other people about what politics they should or should not support. If one cannot be a professional and calmly interact with people who have wildly varying opinions, even opinions one finds despicable, one should not be in an industry whose very foundation is diversity of thought.

To be charitable, you're full of shit. Does Hillary encourage violence at rallies? Does she stoke resentment at minority outgroups for political gain? Does she threaten to imprison her political opponents? Is she preemptively calling the election fraudulent and encouraging polling place intimidation and violence?

Also you mixed up "kind" and "degree". The difference between them is, in fact, one of kind. Sure, she's a bit of a corporatist shill, but that's par for the course for most presidents since the 1900s. The case against her is built from years of strident exaggerations and lies, amplified by misogyny. She's a completely normal, if less than thrilling, politician. The case against Trump is sufficiently built on things he's said in public in just the last few months alone. He's an American proto-fascist.

>Does Hillary encourage violence at rallies?

That's what "community organizations" are for:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY

> To be charitable, you're full of shit.

You can't comment like this on HN. Please don't do it again, regardless of how wrong someone is. Commenters here should post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12735736 and marked it off-topic.

In the 21th century educated techies should understand that Trump is not a mere candidate, but a product of a set of image makers, speech writers, psychologists and whole bunch of deceptive and manipulative techniques applied.

Basically, it is a well crafted frontman (same as in a rock band) to appeal to less educated majority. This explains all the sexism and masculinity, bravado and jokes - all this reflects what the majority of any given population would appreciate, but not necessarily publicly approve.

In a society which is famous for its well crafted, researched in psychology departments, deceptive advertising techniques, all what Trump does should be familiar and transparent - the same primitive manipulations everyone is using to sell the crap to each other.

Trump is a product of applied psychology, designed to obtain majority of votes. Do not even try to fancy that hipsters, vegans, etc. leave alone the ivvy league students, constitutes the majority of US population.

So, some people take their chances, betting on that this primitive but sound strategy could win. Consider this as just a form of a risky investment.

If you vote for Trump, you are supporting a racist, misogynistic, Islamophobic, anti-LGBTQ fascist. You are in fact voting against the very principles of equality, liberty and diversity that this country was founded on. As such voting for -- much less, actually supporting Drumpf -- means you are endorsing violence against huge portions of the American public (e.g., sexual assault against women, imprisonment of Muslims, Latinos, etc).

Therefore, not only is there nothing wrong with forward looking organizations for excluding people as dispicable as Trump supporters, they have a responsibility to do so for the safety of their members who happen to be LGBTQ, Muslim, female, People of Color and basically anyone else who isn't a straight white male.

It's 2016, about damn time we send a message to the bigots that their hate is no longer okay and we're not going to tolerate it anymore. End. Of. Discussion.

Actually, it's about ethics in wielding minorities as a club to smite heretics.

Diversity is the new Deus Vault.

I understand Marco's point and I agree with him but I must say for once I find his post not very well written.

People here defending the donation need to remember that Brandon Eich was let go for much less.

Which was also regrettable.

I would just state that while we have political freedom and free speech in the USA..YC should not be ENDORSING those political forces who in their direct actions with a consistent basis regale in Sexism, Predatory Sexual behavior, Racism, Hate of Gays,etc.

Its time for YC take a stand..no try to sit on a fence

Just one quick comment, because these discussions always go there: This is not about Hillary. Whatever the family Clinton did or not did, it doesn't matter. This is about someone who supports Donald Trump in a significant way, and the person Donald Trump and his potential negative impact on our society.

I assume you'll be voting third party then

Lots of people think Trump is a positive impact on our society. Why not let the people decide in vote.

I don't agree. Clinton is the other choice. What people are doing is weighing up the negatives and positives of each candidate and decide who to support.

When you have a "hot-head numb-nut" and a "truly nasty shyster" running for President, who do you vote for?

I'll tell you. You say, "To hell with all that!", and vote for the [goofball](https://www.johnsonweld.com/).

Thought experiment: Would it be any different if we replaced Donald Trump with Hitler?

Should a company dissociate with a business partner/board member/investor because he supported an extremist's political campaign?

Comparing political candidates to Hitler is a rather lazy thought experiment.

Is quite a good one, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March...

It's not lazy. It's showing the extreme (clearly unacceptable) end of the spectrum to ask someone how they decide where to draw the line. What would Trump have to do before supporting him is unacceptable to YC?

But if you really don't want to use Hitler, try Rodrigo Duterte or Silvio Berlusconi instead. They actually share a lot of similarities to Trump.

Berlusconi is a better comparison in that it avoids all that Godwin's nonsense.

"It's showing the extreme (clearly unacceptable) end of the spectrum to ask someone how they decide where to draw the line."

That's actually very lazy. It's shifting the burden of "drawing the line" on the other side.

It's the "well, why don't we just kill toddlers as well? Where do you draw the line?" in an abortion argument. It's the "why don't we just give 12 year old's automatic assault weapons" or "why don't we disarm the police and military as well" in a gun control debate. It's the "So why don't we just tax corporations 100% of their income" in a corporate tax debate.

AKA, Slippery Slope Fallacy[1].

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

Very true. The line is important.

Trump has started heavily implying that the election will be rigged, Russia-style. He repeats Info Wars propaganda sillyness. He's come out to say that the elections will be stolen from true Americans by illegal immigrants. He's called for beating protestors.

Some of his positions are more a question of form rather than function compared to the political mainstream. His comments on muslims immigrating into the country are not far from the Republican Party mainstream, unfortunately.

But beyond his policies, he has been openly hostile to the concept of functioning democracy. There's a lazy comparison to be made to Hitler, but that's because Hitler also subverted the system through a cult of personality.

I know some people oppose him for his policies, but it feels internally inconsistent (you'd have to boycott most Republican supporters). But surely using strategies to undermine the legitimacy of the election results (that in a different country would be an obvious lead-up to a coup d'etat) is something we can all get behind as a bad thing.

Wasn't Hitler a political candidate as well?

I wouldn't go so far to say that Trump and Hitler are one and the same, but you can draw similarities in the rise of nationalism in both campaigns and their impact on the electorate.

Even if Hitler isn't used as an example (it is a rather extreme one), say David Duke ran for president and Peter Thiel donated to his campaign. Would YC cut ties with Peter then?

I'm just curious to know where YC thinks the line is, and if there is even one.

Or, without saying the H word, what if Thiel was openly a white supremacist, member of and contributor to the KKK? Would that be completely okay? Would that be "just politics"?

HN admins - if you're going to shut this one down as well, could I appeal to you to at least give a reasoning why? Killing posts like these without for example dang providing at least a quick reasoning why leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

People flag it. I just did. Not sure whether the HN admins have anything to do with it.

Flagged is one thing, a previous discussion was additionally set as "dead". As far as I know that can only be done by an admin, no? If it was all an automatic thing done by the system, then I have no issue with it.

BTW, it looks like they turned off the flagged state of this post and are giving the discussion a chance. Well done. Let's hope the comments here don't devolve into silly political bashing...

As far as I'm aware stuff can be flagged to death by crossing a threshold/without admin intervention - but I'm not 100% sure tbh.

Enough flags turn it dead. Mods not required.

OK, I had not realized this. Thanks.

Not an admin, just a user, but read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon.

There's nothing very interesting in vilifying Thiel.

On the contrary, the fact that we had, and continue to have numerous threads, and thousands of comments means it is very interesting to the community.

The fact that it keeps getting flagged to death shows something too.

Politics creep into every news aggregate out there. I kind of like the idea of Hacker News not being one of them.

Indeed it does. Flags are disabled here, and now we get a long and extensive back and forth of all the sorts of arguments normally shut down as bigoted tout court.

Excuses from above about it being good for the community strikes me as eerily similar to the "national security" argument: in order to defend a free community from those who seek to harm it, we don't need to uphold the principles that it was founded upon. Hm.

I'd agree with you, but they have a point in not moderating this one away, since it's critical of YC.

I flagged the last post. I flagged this post. The vast majority of people don't care. Peter Theil is probably a completely fine human being and has valid reasons for supporting Trump, and I'm much more concerned about the people who feel that is donation alone is enough to vilify him.

I think a lot of people are missing a key point here. This isn't about stopping a candidate you disagree with, or even about stopping a candidate that you think would be bad for the US. It's about making Y Combinator and the software industry as effective and good-for-the-world as possible.

Even if throwing Thiel out would actually help Trump's candidacy, they should do it.

There's an interesting debate about whether you think Trump's policies are a good idea, and how much you care about him being elected, but that's a sideshow. Thiel represents Y Combinator, like it or not. How he's perceived affects how Y Combinator is perceived, and how the industry (SV especially) are perceived by the rest of the world. Currently, he's actively and very publicly giving millions of dollars to a candidate espousing violence, sexism, racism and sexual assault.

By supporting Thiel, Y Combinator is supporting somebody espousing violence, sexism, racism and sexual assault. It doesn't matter if they're a presidential candidate or not, or what it does to the election results. Encouraging and supporting these _moral_ positions is horrific, bad for everybody, and just practically bad for business. When your public face becomes the face of hate speech, you have a practical business problem, and you need to solve it.

You would fire a public face of your company if they publicly wrote a post about how they liked to sexually assault people. You would fire a public face of your company if they publicly donated millions of dollars to an organisation encouraging sexual assault. Why is it different if the organisation they're supporting is running for president?

It's not about Trump's policies, and it's not about whether or not it plays into Trump's hands: if a major face of your business is actively visibly supporting abuse, discrimination and violence and you do nothing, then your business is supporting abuse, discrimination and violence. You're going to give you and your industry a bad name and discourage minorities of all kinds from ever working with you, along with anybody else who finds your morals repugnant.

Supporting Thiel while he actively defend and encourages racism, sexism and violence in the name of "free speech" doesn't make the world better; it makes it far far worse.

The thing is, "good for the world" is a subjective notion.

In my studies of philosophy I am yet to find any system of ethics that provides an objective and universal definition of right and wrong - if you find one, please let me know.

Until then, we are all dealing with subjective opinions - it's just that some opinions are more popular than others. In democracy the most popular opinion wins, but this does not imply that an opinion is objectively "right" (as we know from history).

Hence, I find this recent trend where people classify other people's beliefs as "objectively wrong" - with no consideration for the subjectivity of their own beliefs - to be deeply troubling. Such behaviour is a departure from reason; only dogma remains.

It would definitely be wrong to fire or sever all ties with someone for supporting, say, George W. Bush. On the other hand, it would be appropriate to do so if said person supported Hitler.

So the question is where you put Donald Trump on that spectrum. Personally, I think he's much closer to an authoritarian populist than to a regular politician.

You may disagree with Trump's placement on that axis, but I find it very strange to see so many people in this thread arguing that punishing someone for their political position is always wrong, no matter how vile or dangerous said political position is.

Really naive to think that supporting a political party and supporting Trump are the same. Of course, Peter Thiel does not support the BS that Trump says. It would be a huge contradiction coming from the same man that took down Gawker. If there was no single reason why people are supporting Trump, it is American's version of Brexit, by voting Trump people are protesting the massive economic chaos in the USA. They aren't hoping Trump will fix it. The opposite, they are hoping Trump will fail miserably, which will effectively hit the reset button on the American economy.

Another way to look at this is to apply a version of Jeff Bezos's Regret Minimization Framework: project yourself decades into the future and read about yourself in a history book.

If you truly believe Trump is an unprecedented threat to democracy in the league of Stalin, how would you feel telling your children that "it was just business" when you kept on a partner who was part of his campaign apparatus?

I don't think IBM is particularly proud of their management during the 1930's. No one knows or cares about the personal views of the people behind those decisions, just what they led IBM to do.

Would one feel particularly good telling one's children that one joined in a rabid witch hunt driving people from their employment (Eich) and business associations (Thiel)?

I'll feel great telling my kids I encouraged people in my industry to stand up to a billionaire mouthpiece and financier of a prominent white nationalist trying to bring fascism to the United States.

In fact, I'd be ashamed to say I didn't.

Peter Thiel's financial support for Trump's campaign, as well as Trump's campaign of hatred, racism, xenophobia and misogyny, are perfect examples of the Overton window sliding into insanity.

The next Trump may be slightly more moderate. He may accept that women may have some of the same rights as men. He may accept the fact some foreigners should be afforded some civil liberties. He may even accept access to healthcare is a good thing and that Islam is not inherently evil.

And, next to Trump, he'll be pictured as a moderate.

I am sorry if I look intolerant of diversity, but this cannot be tolerated. We cannot allow the subversion of democracies.

>If Peter said some of the things Trump says himself, he would no longer be part of Y Combinator.

If it is only reasonable to spouse Thiel's supports Trump is in every particular. Not just the least damaging but also the most. So this not only includes the more palatable anti globalization stance but also race baiting and, hostility towards women as well as a fiercely anti democracy, anti free press platform.

I assume much of that is exactly opposed to ycombinator's higher mission.

Thiel's association with ycombinator is not one of employee to employer, it is voluntary association of colleagues for a common goal, presumably with goals higher than just monetary. Going forward, continuing with Thiel will not only make any claim to those nobler goals _look_ disingenuous they likely will in fact _be_ undermined.

It's worth sharing this again:

http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

For what it's worth, Thiel seems to have the view that Trump isn't actually going to do horrible things, and will invest in infrastructure and American businesses.

This seems deluded for the same reasons that some American liberals were about Stalin, and purging him for his authentic and not apparently horrible beliefs would be the same mistakes that we did during the McCarthy era.

There's also the entire argument that Thiel doesn't really support Donald Trump, and that this donation is more of a strategic move that is coherent with increasing Ted Cruz's chances of election in 2020. Cruz got as close to a public denouncement of Trump as possible, and he will probably need the support of many of his voters (who knows if they'll even remember, doubt it) to be able to secure a victory. Thiel could perhaps be the trump card necessary as support, as he double counts as both a gay man and someone who remained "loyal" to Trump. I think that Thiel's opinions on how the world should look are more in line with Cruz's, and he himself has called Cruz "very smart". I don't know a lot about politics or Peter Thiel, but to think that a former chess champion and fairly renowned silicon Valley figurehead legitimately supports Trump is a little outlandish. The odds of there being an ulterior motive are far greater than the opposite. Not to mention that he probably saw all the negative PR coming, as well as the resulting dissociations. He probably believes it was all worth it.

He appeared on stage, and gave a speech in support of Trump at the GOP National Convention in Cleveland, back in July.

Nearly all of our bosses, owners, authorities vote and support in various ways, most you probably don't like. Thiel is a funder, how often have you worked for people/financing that had differing opinions? All the time...

The real problem is that the 2 party system has successfully divided us and put us on teams warring one another over silly things like politicians (and non issues like sex lives over real issues like healthcare, education, prosperity, opportunity, security -- not the war on terror kind, more like the bridges aren't going to fall kind).

Most of what we want are the same things, but we'll never get anywhere hating on each other based on our political team that is essentially the same party once in action. I wish we would go back to the old way of keeping your vote and opinion closer to your chest and surprising the two political parties so they actually need to court the vote again.

I can't wait til the election season is over, it is always a very harsh/rigid time in the US when they are on, people seeing others as lower who aren't in their own party. Disconnect from it and everyone be independent. Don't do work for politicians and blindly support anyone or any party, make them do work for us.

Given Thiel's long history of crazy an immoral utterances and behavior, why pick out his support of Trump as the "line in the sand"? It's practically normal compared to his other activities, and protected by law to boot. Compared to:

* Suing a news publication (Gawker) out of business for criticizing him * Funding research into vampirism (stealing young people's blood so he can live longer) * Paying to design an actual John Gault Island * Funding an initiative to split California into 6 states * Saying that women shouldn't be allowed to vote

There are tons of reasons why YC should disassociate form Thiel, but his donation to the Trump campaign has got to be the least of them.

Man alive this thread. When SV wonders why it has a diversity problem, just point 'em here.

Where were all you Free Speech zealots when Thiel destroyed Gawker?

Where were all you Political Choices Are Sacred crew when SOPA was being proposed?

Where were all you "protect rich bigots" stans when it was Brendan Eich? Oh wait, that's right, you were on the wrong side there too, my bad.

As for you "I guess there's a 'wrong side' these days of things you just can't say" newcomers: surprise, there have always been unacceptable opinions, such as supporting fascism. It's just that a mainstream party accidentally chose as its candidate someone who holds and expresses those opinions. That doesn't give him, you, or Thiel, a pass.

Ok how about this: Anyone who supports Hillary is on the wrong side of History and holds views so vile no American should hold them. I can advocate for Pao to be fired now right?

Sure, you can advocate for it. Whether or not you believe that, in fact. People may question both your preferred action and the basis on which you advocate for it, however.

Wouldn't it be easier just to agree to no witch hunts than to hope the winds of public opinion never make us the witch?

But what about if you actually do have a "witch" on your hands? Like, say, an actual fascist?

I think one of the conflicts here is arising because some people see Trump as an actual fascist, and are advocating the kinds of actions that are required to deal with that. Others see him as just another politician, no worse than Clinton, and therefore see the actions of the other lot as excessive and unwarranted.

Sama, however, is trying to have his cake and eat it. He says he believes Trump is a threat to the republic but eh, if people want to support that it's up to them.

Which is arguably open-minded tolerance of intolerance, but also the sort of "so open your brain falls out" liberalism that (ironically) Trump fans hate so much.

You can advocate but you're going to have to back up your argument first. This is trivial to do for Trump.

Clinton is not currently trying to undermine US democracy, use entire religions as immigration criteria, evade tax on a massive scale, defend her historic sexual abuse, or construct a fascist state, so your job is a little more difficult making your case.

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