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" The Whirlpool made (most common machines on the market) top loading machines were rock solid for 30 plus years. People would often have them for 20-30 years."

This is no exaggeration. The one that broke for me was estimated by the technician to be 20 years old with the dryer he said was probably 30 years old. We'd kept them for years and years with no need for repairs. They did the job.

I told him in IT that complexity just made stuff break more often or take more work to fix. My prediction was that the old stuff was still more reliable & cheaper to fix. He confirmed this was true. Said the new stuff was all garbage that kept him in good business. I asked for the most reliable, used, old washer he had in stock at their warehouse at the time. The one he gave me for $80-100 looks old as the other stuff but similarly works fine.

I never buy new washers or dryers. I'd consider newer dishwashers because both Consumer Reports I read a long time ago and personal experience had them breaking a lot. I'm curious about feedback if they've improved in reliability over time. Washers & dryers the old ones win hands down at 20-30 years operation. They're the mainframes of appliances.

Yeah, you were wise to listen to him. Another tell is to go into used appliance stores and see what they carry the most of. Most used appliance shops won't even bother refurbishing many machines now because it's not cost effective and they don't trust that they will make it out of their warranty before breaking.

Dishwashers, stay away from Frigidaire entirely. They are made disposable. 2-3 years is the average life before needing a repair. I've had the best experience with Whirlpool dishwashers. KitchenAid has gone downhill in the past 5 years or so, in terms of quality.

Just got done reading that article. Awesome stuff. One thing I was considering a few years back is redoing the old appliances that last forever to target to people interested in reducing waste and/or lower-class people as "buy once never worry again." I was mainly worried about patents but you said elsewhere the core techniques are decades old. Other concern is Energy Star affecting design or implementation cost.

In any case, what do you think of a clean-slate development that reversed some of the trends in your article?

Thanks!

I've thought quite a bit about it. I think the demand is there now for well-built machines as people are realizing now that their old machines were built much, much better and lasted longer. Before now, people really didn't have a contrast for those machines, so they really didn't understand how good they had it.

If someone was able to buy the patent for Whirlpool's direct drive machine, that would be ideal, then just start manufacturing those things again. People would weep tears of joy if they could buy those machines again, not exaggerating.

As far as design, there are only two designs that have ever been used. The top loader with the tall agitator and newer top loaders have the low profile agitator.

I'm still not quite sure why Whirlpool stopped making their direct drive top loaders. It was the biggest step down in quality I think I've ever seen. Machines went from lasting 8-12 years before needing some routine maintenance to mostly breaking within the first 3 years on the newly designed Vertical Modular Washers.

With enough resources and determination, the appliance industry could be turned on it's head, at least starting with washers and dryers.

Damn so there is a remaining patent. Buy it or not, there's at least a ticking clock toward a reliable machine. :) I reposted your article in Lobsters forum. Curious what you would reply to Ted's interesting points:

https://lobste.rs/s/3rcyqa/they_used_last_50_years_appliance...

He raises a few good points but one I don't have any detail on is the commercial washers and dryers. How much better or worse are they? What's the arrangement like in terms of is it the same crap with a profitable service contract or much better with maintenance provisions at reasonable points in time?

Speed Queen probably makes the highest quality machine right now. Then he's correct that it's then commercial machines. But those are very expensive and enormous in size making them impractical for consumer use.

The business model right now is really built upon the fact that there are very few appliance manufacturers left. Consolidation has taken away the competition and it seems like those remaining have set the bar pretty low. I think they know if they make a cheap dishwasher that lasts 3 years, that person will have to buy another machine. Throw in new models each year and consumers have no hope of keeping track of what brand is good and who they should trust. Confusion reigns when it comes to buying appliances. So people don't hold the manufacturers accountable. I see a lot of similarities with the mattress industry.

My father was tired of having to run the dryer 3 times to get his clothes dry. The local independent applianc store guy said "I sell speed queens", and showed the difference between cheap washers and Speed Queen's home products.

https://speedqueen.com/products/top-load-washers.aspx

The owner said that the motor from a modern speed queen washer could be put in the 30-year old model. He showed how the speed queen springs are heavy-duty, while the Samsung and modern maytag springs are very light.

My dad took his old dryer to the store for disposal. When he went back a few days later, he saw his old dryer for sale. It'd been opened it up, the block that none of the Sears warranty servicers could find was removed, and it was perfectly usable. Someone else had recently abandoned a kenmore front loader into the store's possession - it needed a circuit board, and wasn't worth fixing.

I was going to say that when a dryer is taking too long to dry, but it's still heating up, it's not broken. It either needs to be cleaned because it's blocked up in the lint chute, or the ducting from the dryer to the outside of the house is blocked somewhere. It probably only took them 20-30 minutes to refurbish the old dryer and it will be good for another 5-10 years.

What I shared above is very common knowledge in the repair industry, so odds are the Sears person that came out was either on his first day of the job or didn't even look at the machine. Sadly this happens a lot.

As I understand it, Speed Queen bought a Whirlpool factor making old fashioned, electrical-mechanical controlled washers (and dryers, I guess) for the consumer market, and they have a great reputation in the field.

Unless one has a major fault, which is of course especially likely before it gets to you due to shipping damage or a mistake in the factory. In that case, they effectively refuse to service your machine, because they pay their 3rd party repair crew per incident, not accounting for the work required for one. So if one of those electro-mechanical control units fails, as they were eventually prone to do in the bad old days, you're all set, but ... well, after finding this out, I ended up paying > $200 for a major repair to my 2007 GE washer, and plan to continue doing that as long as possible, it was designed and manufactured before these machines went completely to shit.

Note also that in the US the Federal government pays companies to make their washers steadily do a poorer job in the name of energy efficiency (there are limits to other appliances, e.g. no one would accept a fridge which won't keep food in the safe zone, but not for washers). Whirlpool, which is essentially a pure play in appliances, didn't pay any taxes for a couple of years or so because of these credits they received from the Feds.

Tedu's other question was, with price comparisons, whether washer or dryers were seen as luxury items back in the 60's to 80's. Today about anyone can buy them for a grand tops. Was it the same in those time periods or lower but at same purchasing power? Has cost cutting put them in reach of more people?

You're a bit older than most of us in this sub-thread. I figured you might have an idea.

Errr, as a member of the middle class rapidly becoming "upper middle class" during that exact period, I don't think I have much visibility into this.

I have the strong impression that white goods like your three or four basic appliances, fridge, washer, dryer and maybe freezer, were major things, and that purchases were made with care and perception of reliability key (how Sears' Kenmore brand did so well, but there was of course the reality of reliability plus good service behind their stuff as well), but then again my parents were from the Silent Generation, who's formative years were in the privations of the Great Depression and WWII. And finishing on impressions, a freezer might be considered something of a luxury (but also a money saver, especially for a big family), but not the washer and dryer.

One approach would be to get statistics on laundromats in suitable areas (i.e. don't including college towns), how have their numbers and capacities changed, if by very much at all? Also correct for family size and sex ratios, my 2 brothers plus one sister and I certainly created more dirty laundry than a smaller or more female family.

One other thought: were disposable diapers a luxury back then? (Are they today?) My mother certainly didn't use them, and dealing with a bin of my youngest brother's used cloth diapers was nasty enough inside a private house, hard to imagine opening it inside a laundromat....

Lol. Maybe. Add that to our long-term list of stuff to figure out.

Around here Miele is know as the rock solid ones.

We got a front loaded Miele washer for our wedding and it has a warranty for 10 years but is expected to easily last up to 20 with minor fixes.

Miele brand seems be associated with quality. They are also well known for their vacuum cleaners.

Thanks. My main fear is that my Siemens top loading washer will break. It was unique in how its control panel was located, making it possible to slip under my sink. Now this design is totally gone from the market, and I will not find a design that will fit. It is interesting that almost all models, for all brands existing, to buy new look the same.

A brand that's definitely not trying to look the same is Speed Queen.