Nomic: "...a game in which changing the rules is a move." | Hacker News Reader

Nomic: "...a game in which changing the rules is a move."

earlham.edu

50 pointselimisteve29 comments

Ah, I remember playing Nomic obsessively online back when I was in high-school. I was the webmaster (or "Secretary of Truth") who inflicted the painful red color scheme on MacroNomic: http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/macronomic/

Hey, I just took a look at the longest-running Nomic, Agora, and it appears to still be at least somewhat active: http://www.agoranomic.org/ It was started in 1993; that's an impressive run.

Agora was great---I was involved for about six years in the early days, and it taught me a lot about logic, world modelling, and precision of expression. You know, computer science.

I started, but found it frustrating and eventually quit. The rules were the size of a phone book, and there were a lot of meta/social rules in addition to the written ones. At least once I followed the letter of the law, only to be told that "no, that's not how you're supposed to do it."

When I taught high school, nomic was the day-before-vacation time waster in my CS classes. I think we actually had a winner once in the couple of dozen times we played, but the kids had fun. They sat around arguing about logic, which was a very easy sell to my administration.

For those with a shorter attention span, there's an addictive card game in which changing the rules is a move: http://www.wunderland.com/LooneyLabs/Fluxx/

Be forewarned, the game can go quite long as mathematically, there is no guarantee it will halt.

It can also be quite frequently won on the first turn.

Not at all in any of the variants I know of.

By first turn, he means "first play around the table".

If you get a play 3 or play all out in the first turn, and someone else has 2 keepers that match a goal card, someone can then win by playing all three.

In Monty Python Fluxx, you can play "Play All," use "Bring Out Your Dead" to get rid of all your cards except for "The Cheese Shop" which you then play to win.

But as a player there are many things you can do to ensure that it ends quickly (draw 4, play all, let's do that again, take another turn). You might not always be the beneficiary but the game will be over shortly.

I'm a fan of the zombie version, which is a hoot.

I have that one. The concept is interesting, but Fluxx doesn't allow you to change the rules, only some parameters (e.g. take n cards a turn, play m cards).

I felt it failed to live up to the promise of its concept.

That's what I found too - Fluxx is pretty lightweight. Well, compared to some of the rules that I've played with in Bartok eg. prime-numbered black cards are clubs, non-prime red cards add one to their value (mod-13, naturally), sevens "don't exist" (they have no effect on play, don't count towards your hand total, etc.)

There is also Mao, which halts but is just as fun. The first rule of Mao is that you don't talk about the rules of Mao. And the winner gets to add a new rule.

This sounds a lot like the semi-popular college game 1000 Blank White Cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000_Blank_White_Cards)

This brought back fond memories of calvinball http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvin_and_Hobbes#Calvinball

Haven't read about it before but sounds interesting.

It is interesting, particularly if you play it with like-minded friends.

Another similar game which is just as good is Bartok (or Bartog or Warthog, depending on who you ask). Similar to Uno, but when you win a round, you get to make a new rule which applies to every future round. Best played with drunken Mathematicians/CS types.

Finally, if you want to be really scared, there's PerlNomic, in which rule changes are actually diffs applied to the voting code: http://www.nomic.net/~nomicwiki/index.php/PerlNomic

Hofstadter wrote about this in a column for Scientific American. The article appears in his collection, "Metamagical Themas," and Google Books has most of it here: http://books.google.com/books?id=o8jzWF7rD6oC&dq=metamag....

Partly because Peter Suber worked with Hofstadter during a sabbatical year, and I believe developed Nomic during that time (or at least did some of the preliminary talking about it). It's a very Hofstadterian game.

Peter Suber just wrote to me correcting my misapprehension of causality:

I published Nomic in 1982, about seven years before my sabbatical in Hofstadter's lab. But I published it in Hofstadter's column in Scientific American. We got to know one another through Nomic, and it led to the sabbatical at his lab, not the other way around.

There's nothing confidential in this; please feel free to post it if you think it would interest others.

Nomic is a fascinating game.

For those about to try it in school: You should probably add a fixed rule about not ending class prematurely and going outside to play (my students needed a rather long time to come up with this loop hole). But it was an interesting hour which served as an introduction to the 10 commandments.

Fluxx. highly recommend for hackers. same spirit as Nomic but MUCH simpler and easier to learn and play. And fast.

Sounds really cool. I wish I could find a group to play this with. Any takers in NYC?

In other news, all these numbered rules made me think of Rule #34. I lost.

Sorry, I just changed the rules and now you're not allowed to play.

If pw0ncakes were already a player, this would be illegal under rules 104-108, rule 111, possibly rule 201, and indeed might have handed him victory under rule 213.

BlogNomic's current round is (possibly) about to end, so if you want to try playing it online you could jump in when the next game starts.

Maybe before/after the next Hackers & Founders meeting you could get some folks together. I am definitely interested.

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