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Comment by thomasfoster96 | Hacker News Reader

I'm no fan of Peter Thiel's politics, but where are these libertarian communities you speak of [1]? I can't think of any libertarian government that currently has power any where.

[1] I'm excluding anarchist communities.

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Indeed there are none. If there were, I'd gladly move there.

One of the biggest challenges that arises when the concept of true libertarian societies comes up is how the democratic governments of the world would respond. I think they'd be overly envious and embargo the libertarian societies. Of course, the democracies would try to justify this by arguing that, 'If you want to isolate yourself from us, then don't even bother trading with us'. However, this argument totally misses the point; secession and libertarianism don't advocate for protectionism, only free trade.

Nonetheless, I suspect there'll be a wave of secessionist movements that will take over the world in the 21st century. This is the only hope (or is it Hoppe) that anarcho-capitalism has.

Thats why I think an association of corporations with huge trading power will be the first one to successfully pull this off.

Yes,that would work but only if the 'Liberlands' aren't set up as tax havens. Doing this would only antagonize the democracies.

Governments see tax heaven everywhere. In the governments eye, they dont tax you 40% - they let you keep 60%. So any drop in tax revenue would certainly antagonize them.

Thats why I said the trading power is neccessery for governments to stomach the harsh reality : They get power from the commerce not the other way around.

What the? Democratic nations aren't jealous teenagers. If they envy your living standards, they try to trade with you, not embargo you. Unless there's a lot of human rights violations going on (eg north korea, apartheid-era south africa), democratic nations are up for trade.

The libertarian echo chamber produces some truly bizarre ideas.

Go see the history of all recent attempts in creating new countries, including guys willing to build islands from scratch... all of them ended badly, even bombings happened.

Thank you. That's exactly my point. If no envy exists, why stop someone from creating soverign territories. It is no wonder Keynes said, 'In the end we're all dead'. He might as well have added, '...so long as it is all of us'

How about using the definition of 'envy' that is the one English-speaking people used? 'Envy' does not mean 'desire to maintain power'.

Significantly redefining a word is one of the worst aspects of libertarianism (eg, the redefinition of "violence"), and it's done intentionally in order to confuse the issue and put other people offside.

How is this 'envy'? The UK hasn't stomped on Sealand, and isn't envious of it.

How about giving some examples of these supposedly envied places, rather than just leave it to the imagination?

By using the word 'teenager' in your reponse, you're simply employing an argumentation tactic referred to as reductio ad absurdum. This can only mean one of two things; you're either too emotional about the subject at hand or you're underestimating the role of envy in the formation of societies. I'll only address the reason that matters, which is the latter.

I'll refer you to an excerpt from 'Envy a theory of social behavior'.

'envy has played a large part in forming human society, and that, secondly, the role of envy often remains hidden'

Also

'socialism and democracy were put forward as ideas by members of society who were not able "to deal with their own envy"'

Maybe someone should spread the rumor that Liberia is the ultimate Libertarian paradise (I mean, it's in the name and the flag looks similar enough to the US).

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