How Satya Nadella is taking on Apple and Amazon | Hacker News Reader

How Satya Nadella is taking on Apple and Amazon

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48 pointsrichardboegli50 comments

Please do, lately I have been having more fun with my Lumia devices than the Android ones.

Coding for UWP (aka WinRT) is a pleasure compared with the Android chaos, specially having a common OS OO ABI for multiple languages and tools that don't feel permanently in alpha stage, regardless of the amount of PhDs able to game the hiring process.

Given your animosity towards Android and all things Google I'm really not surprised. I recently installed Android Studio on my Mac and was pleasantly surprised how well the IDE and emulator performed. This was in stark contrast to the pig that is Visual Studio that I installed on my PC that sprayed 30GB of data all over my SSD.

Not everyone has nice employers giving SSDs and I bet most likely 16GB.

On the other hand VS runs properly on a HDD with 8GB.

As for Android, since you only installed Studio for the first time, let me explain it how it goes:

- Data binding introduced at Google IO 2015, still doesn't work in all use cases;

- The new layout constraints introduced for Android N, are still work in progress. In some cases blueprints and actual UI get out of sync, crash or don't expose certain attributes;

- Between the Camera and Camera2 API, I am not sure which one is worse;

- During two years anyone using the NDK was left unsupported, only after InteliJ announced CLion, did Google announced it would add its plugins to Studio. It took two more years to finally have some decent support for the NDK;

- Which since the move to Gradle had only the ndk-build documented, with some information scattered around how to use the new unstable Gradle plugin, followed by another plugin on the stable Android. But actually the way forward is to use cmake;

- There is hardly a Support Library release that doesn't have regressions;

- The Java fork, that is increasingly causing friction with Java libraries;

- The Jack compiler still doesn't support all of the Android own tooling;

- Fragments and activities, oh well....

- Gradle execution speed measured in minutes;

- The deprecated API between releases;

- Hardware accelerated 2D actually depends on how the APIs are used;

Stopping here even though I could easy add a few additional ones, but any Android developer can happily add some more bullet points here.

The support library regresssions, oh god, this +1000000. It appears that the prevailing attitude is release first, then maybe fix based on developer complaints.

Then there is the mess of manufacturer bugs, but that isn't strictly google's fault.

Visual Studio is an old and bloated beast that predates Staya Nadella, but since he took the helm the Visual Studio Code[1] project has been underway, and it's worth checking out if you haven't. It's cross-platform and closer to Notepad++ or Sublime Text than Visual Studio, but with full IntelliSense.

I also have the latest Visual Studio Community Edition installed and it's "only" 1.25GB, but I don't have any extras installed, just the base plus some extensions.

[1] https://code.visualstudio.com

I never got into developing on Android because it felt much harder to just "get going", whereas uwp felt like I could have a working product in far less time. I'm sure others may disagree, and there are definitely times I've scratched my head due to some limitations. But overall I've been very pleased with Microsoft's developer tools.

I kinda understand you very well. Sometimes I wonder if google should just scratch Android and start over again. I mean no matter how much optimizing and tweaks they come up with, it will never be able to match iOS or Windows Phone in performance.

I can tell you've never really used any high end Android phones lately. People like you probably formulate their opinions of Android based upon the $30 phones they buy. Try out a Pixel, S7 or a One Plus 3 some time. Android surpassed Windows Phone a long time ago and the Pixel is on par with the iPhone.

I've got a S7 Edge and if there were a model of Windows Phone with current hardware, I'd dump the S7 Edge and get one without bothering to think twice. Android's UI is miles behind Windows Phone, particularly the live tiles and the mail UI.

Android slows because of ton of crap that can be installed. WinUP is clean as no one makes crap. I have a nexus 4 with no play store. Juat installed whatsapp apk directly fron whatsapp.com. at least 3 day battery time.

The Windows/Tile UI is very polarizing and one of the major reasons for the failure of Windows 8. I personally dislike it.

I don't have a pixel but I've had a bunch of other flagships. The real test, that they all failed, is longevity. Android just doesn't seem able to survive a year of full use without deteriorating into a mess of glitches, one that no developer i know, myself included, has figured out how to fully salvage short of flashing a new ROM.

And yet all of the Android devices I own have all passed that test and then some. I have Android devices that are over 4 years old that still work extremely well. Granted, I'm not a flash junkie that needs to continually flash their devices with the latest daily ROM built by some script kiddie.

I have 6 year old Android devices that are still alive and kicking and used every day.

In software or in hardware? The Pixel is a beautiful device, but the security and demographics of Android vs. iOS speaks for itself in how much an Android 0day goes for vs. an iOS 0day. Android is simply not hardened or built with much security in mind, and now they are trying to catch up on that; the problem is that the Android ecosystem is brutally fragmented.

Each has its pros and cons in software and hardware. But judging from the Pixel reviews I've read it's on par with the iPhone from a performance, touch latency and UI fluidity perspective. And this is all without Google producing their own silicon yet. As for security, which OS gets monthly security patches? It's not as if iOS security is impenetrable because you just need to look at the number of CVE's raised against it each year. And if you're going to use 0day bounties as a metric then you should also realise that there's just more demand for iOS exploits then there are for Android exploits due to the calibre of targets that have iOS devices. And to imply that Android is simply not hardened or built with much security in mind is ridiculous in my opinion. Security is a challenge for all popular OS's, but for all of the security issues it's had there has yet to be the so called armageddon these shock-jock journalists have all predicted at one time or another. I guess all of the mitigation strategies are working quite well not to mention the side benefit of exploits being device dependant. Meanwhile, every security nightmare you read or hear about always involves Windows.

>the problem is that the Android ecosystem is brutally fragmented.

Looks like Android now has company.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/ios-also-has-a-fragmentation-pr...

For the record, on the front page of HN right now: https://cpbotha.net/2016/11/27/android-security-in-2016-is-a...

It maybe beautiful to use, but that thing is pig ugly

Since it's so close to the aesthetics of an iPhone the same must be true.

ok maybe "pig ugly" was a little over the top, but I do find it very plain and uninteresting. I don't see what the fuss is about, design wise

minimalism?

Maybe, but business-wise, why should they care?

The business case would be to have a phone os that people love, like Apple does.

Android would be my preferred os, if it actually worked properly. Most lay people I know feel the same. A new Android device is a joy for the few months before it falls to pieces, then it's a necessary headache, much like windows was a decade ago.

If you dominate a market with a product no one loves, you better be a locked-in telecom. Otherwise, as Microsoft learned, your dominance may be surprisingly fragile.

If it's at all possible to consider Microsoft the "new Apple" (at least as far as hardware goes), it's worth a thought: Will Microsoft do what we've been asking Apple to do with the iPad Pro all along: give it a real OS.

Obviously, it wouldn't be an iPad Pro form factor, and Surface already runs Windows 10. But I'm sure you're following.

A Windows Phone with the ability to run ("native") Windows software would be an incredibly interesting play.

Asus ZenPhone houses an Intel Atom... Windows also has their little Linux thing... Android is Linux-based... Project Astoria was a thing...

This could be really fun to watch.

I think they should push the Project Astoria part. I know they are worried people will stop developing Windows Apps but I believe if they can gain a significant mobile market share going down the Astoria part, developers will soon start to think "hey, I might just make a native windows app since so many already use my Android app emulated on Windows".

The duopoly is being abused. I am a iOS developer and I hate the 30% cut they take off my income. Their appstore algorithm favours established actors even when their product is far worse. I have seen apps that doesnt even boot on iOS9 ranking higher in the search results page than mine.

And lets not forget the Spotify vs Apple case.

The consumers need a third mobileOS to bring some competition. It is becoming stale with Apple and Android.

Astoria was amazing, I have a phone with the dev build it worked on at home with some Android apps on it. Ran great... Well, as great as Android apps run.

WebOS, how I miss you.

WebOS was far ahead of its time, and the shitty hardware all but killed it. FFOS seemed to be what WebOS was, but that didn't go anywhere, either.

I think the big problem a new OS will have is compatibility with existing iOS/Android software stacks. You need to be able to run one or the other until you get market share for your own applications, because the majority of the populace wants their bread-and-butter Facebook, Snapchat, et al and these companies will not give your upstart OS any love until you have users.

Not sure why you're getting downvoted.

I was a Palm Pre user from day 1. I loved everything about WebOS. I still do. I agree with your points completely.

Downvotes on HN these days are slowly becoming as bad as Reddit: it's no longer "downvote this if there is no argument or there is no added meaning to this conversation", as much as it can be "I disagree with this statement."

The Pre was a fantastic device and did a lot of things right from a UX perspective, IMO. The hardware was terrible and there wasn't any mind paid toward securing anything really, but it was a breath of fresh air in the duopoly.

>A Windows Phone with the ability to run ("native") Windows software would be an incredibly interesting play.

Intel killed its smartphone x86 chip project in April[0] so that's unlikely to happen anytime soon. There are reports of MS planning to attempt to do x86 emulation on ARM but that strikes me as a long shot. Getting good compatibility and decent performance would be challenging to say the least.

[0] http://www.anandtech.com/show/10288/intel-broxton-sofia-smar....

[1] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/11/x86-em...

An interesting play to who exactly? How many people do you think actually want to run clunky Windows desktop apps on a phone? Windows phone was already an exercise in frustration. I can only imagine the new levels of frustration achieved from running desktop apps on it.

I would buy a Windows phone that I could put on a dock and use like my desktop (but understandably slower). That's where it is going (or should be), and that is where MS has the advantage.

Processor improvements are mostly going to efficiency rather than raw power these days, so time is on their side. Being able to carry your computer around and put it in a "desktop dock," or "laptop dock" would be amazing. It will make having separate phone apps and computer apps seem as kludgy as carrying an iPod, a computer and a flip phone was.

They're really close too. Shrink the surface a bit, make it cooler and put a cell radio on it. Boom!

The trail of dead products (and companies) is not exactly encouraging.

Obviously I completely agree, but the Surface line of hardware so far is good quality and feels coherent if a tad expensive for me. Expanding the product line from phabletey to large desktop could work for them.

They have well built products (I still find the Surface Studio a bit gimmicky), but they are not much better than what their partners and competitors offer.

And, if they ever get to the point of having something that is much better than what their partners have, I imagine there will be a lot better support for Linux on the market.

Good quality? Depends on your affinity to blue screens.

Microsoft's track record at starting and failing with their various iterations of mobile OSes is why I'll never take any mobile offering of theirs seriously.

Yet many of the ideas in Android and iOS were in Microsoft devices first, even if they failed to monetize them properly.

Regardless of what will happen with this Surface phone, at least from the consumer computer stores in some European countries, it is clear to me Windows 10 is the current winner for hybrid tablets and netbooks reborn, given that they replaced most of the Android ones that used to be on display.

Motorola, Fujitsu-Siemens, palm. They all had portable windows devices, nobody had it good.

I have to disagree here. PalmOS was never intended to be a phone OS, but WebOS was absolutely awesome, many years ahead of its competition.

I wasn't talking about the os, as I personally liked it. The company however had a windows based phone.

> Mr. Nadella, however, said the company was not going to launch into a device category without bringing something different to the table

Continuum, done right.

It's too much of a risk to develop a top tier app on a risky platform like whatever MS comes up with next.

Agree, too much risk for indie developers. But for companies like SnapChat its all about being anti-Microsoft and preventing anyone creating a snapchat app for its phone platform.

I hope they present and push a focus on security with whatever they do. I use android because I don't like apple, but it seems like there's a new critical android vulnerability every 2 weeks, and they all take 4 - 6 months to actually get the patch to my phone.

They should probably start with their desktop OS first.

As someone who can't stand apple yet also is getting bored of Android apps (linux) crashing every 5 minutes, I feel it would be great if Microsoft could release something new to the market with the same reliability as their Desktop OS.

I've read the article, and it's the opposite of what the title says. The article writes about "rumors" but Nadella hasn't said anything to support them.

I'd call it a click-bait, YMMV.

We updated the title from ‘Microsoft CEO hints at Surface phone with talk of an “ultimate mobile device”’, which breaks the guidelines by editorializing.

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