Homeschoolers' setback sends shock waves through state | Hacker News Reader

Homeschoolers' setback sends shock waves through state

sfgate.com

22 pointsgibsonf119 comments

The money quote is that one of the explicit purposes of public school is to indoctrinate our children to be patriotic and to defend the nation. That is nationalism folks, the movement that helped cause most of the wars in the last century. The movement that is right now causing riots in Serbia.

It may not sound like such a huge thing, but even in second grade I remember refusing to say the pledge of allegiance, despite my parents never pushing any kind of left OR right wing ideology on me.

I remember in 4th grade or so, the pledge started to sound a little spooky to me as well.

I think home schooling is an important right because it's the last, best defense against a total fail in the public school system. It also makes it possible for middle and lower class children to have private education rather than having that option end up a further luxury for just the rich.

If you mean to say that "you were just born a freedom-lover", I don't agree. You assimilate ideas and concepts from all around you, and parents are having less and less to do with it.

Woah! Before bashing and mindlessly reinforcing each other's libertarian ideals, let's all back up and Google the background one second. (don't get me wrong: I'm a big proponent of home schooling, I'll probably be home schooling my kids (probably while teaching in public schools at the time (go figure)))

Original ruling: http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/B192878.PDF

Alternate explanation of original ruling: http://ace.mu.nu/archives/257230.php#257230

The "money quote", as someone called it, is cited, and that's how law works - it repeats precedent. If you follow the precedent, it doesn't end in '61. The '61 case cites a 1938 case, which says:

"The legislature has conferred upon school boards broad plenary powers to make all reasonable regulations that will in the reasonable exercise of judgment promote the efficiency of the school system in performing public welfare duties, which are limited not merely to the development of the mind in academic fields, but the sphere of which is much broader and extends to those subjects which will tend to [12 Cal.2d 92] develop and quicken the civic conscience in ways of attachment for home and country."

See here: http://www.claralaw.cpda.org/om_isapi.dll?infobase=cases2.nf...

That was written in 1938. And see that "12 Cal.2d 92"? That's a citation to a yet earlier case. In other words this idea has been around for almost a century, and there is nothing new or newly-frightening about it. It was cited because the incompetent defense had a really backwards argument about what was going on at home. Legal action came around when one of the eight children reported "physical and emotional mistreatment". SFGate only reported the last word.

So here's my take on what happened: libertarian think tank intern scans legal briefs for quotes he can write a story around to rile people up. They find a resolution with a quote that uses scary 60's cold-war language to describe an idea that's been around for at least 80 years. Voila! That's our reality-hook! The rest is already in people's minds, so they won't double check it... now let's just write the story to reinforce the ideas we are promoting. There's always lazy journalists who will publish a paper around this, and controversy will only bring more readers to the paper, so who cares if it's true, as long as it "riles people up"? Lew Rockwell jumps all over it, of course:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/greenhut/greenhut52.html

That's it! They're taking away our guns! To arms! To arms!

Oh no! They're going to ban abortions everywhere!

Oh dear! They're going to take away our children for indoctrination!

Don't get me wrong, I completely support Roe v. Wade, but I think it's despicable how those who support it have no idea why people oppose it.

Please don't hold all libertarians accountable for Lew Rockwell. Some of us are "classical liberals" in the style of the Enlightenment. The libertarian movement is far from a perfect fit, but it's closer than the other parties.

You're right, it's definitely not. If you consider yourself a classical liberal, you probably shouldn't call yourself a libertarian at all, at least not when speaking to educated libertarians. While the two schools share a lot in common, their philosophical underpinnings are quite different: self-ownership versus "life, liberty, and property". In today's climate it makes perfect sense that the two groups should be political allies, but they shouldn't be conflated.

libertarians are mostly very pro-free-market, and pro-small-government, as am I. I like Rand and Hayek. I can communicate these things better with the word 'libertarian' than with the word 'liberal' which few people understand in the way I'd mean it. I'm closer to right-wing than left-wing, by present day American standards. meh. avoiding labels requires a lot more words.

PS I'd upvote you if I could vote.

I've never quite understood people's aversion to being labeled. I'm happy to be labeled as a Rothbardian. My political thinking basically conforms to the framework laid out in The Ethics of Liberty. The fact that I accept the label doesn't mean that I accept every word that Rothbard ever wrote as gospel. I wouldn't expect any reasonable person to infer that I do, and nobody (reasonable or otherwise) has ever confronted me with such an accusation. Labels are just macros, and as such they're useful.

well didn't you basically just tell me to avoid the label libertarian because it's too misleading? i don't entirely agree, but thought you had a point. it is misleading. so are all the others. the only half-decent ones for me are pretty specific like Popperian.

I was just advising you to avoid the wrong label, not to avoid them altogether.

But I don't think libertarian is the wrong label (no worse than others). if "classical liberal" makes you think it is, maybe that is the wrong label?

I think libertarian is the wrong label, and classical liberal perhaps but not necessarily the correct one, if you identify more closely with Thomas Jefferson than with Robert Nozick.

I don't know early American philosophers very well offhand. But wikipedia says Jefferson sympathized with the French. The dates are around the time of the French Revolution. So, my guess is I dislike him. The French Revolution was really awful and revolutions in general are bad.

Bear in mind that the French Revolution began as something very different than what it became. Thomas Paine, arguably the most libertarian of any of the founding fathers, was one of the French Revolution's most ardent American supporters in its early days. After the revolution got hijacked by the Jacobins, Paine ended up in a French prison.

If you'd like, substitute Locke for Jefferson.

Thomas Paine I know about. I read his book about the French Revolution -- the reply to Burke. It's really bad stuff. He doesn't understand Burke at all, makes bad arguments carelessly, and throws in lots of insults. (I realize I'm being insulting. Besides the low quality thinking he made excuses for massive bloodshed as well as glorifying some of it. And I have detailed notes with which I could back this up.)

Interesting. If you sympathize with Burke then I have no idea where to place you. He's pretty much universally reviled by every modern school of thought that I'm familiar with.

Anyhow, we're quickly veering away from the topic and toward the right margin. We should probably take this to email. My email address is on the page linked in my profile.

The pleasure of the teacher's union shows it is not about making sure children are educated, but about keeping and retaining political power.

You are correct. From the article:

Heimov said her organization's chief concern was not the quality of the children's education, but their "being in a place daily where they would be observed by people who had a duty to ensure their ongoing safety."

Combine this with the recent article on how terribly wrong math is taught in school and we have quite a grim outlook of our nation's future.

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