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Comment by Xylakant | Hacker News Reader

One problem with AdBlue is that the car makers decided that the car owners were not supposed to refill it, it was considered more like an oil change than a fill-up. So the tank needs to be large enough to cover a full maintenance interval - which either requires quite a large tank or creative solution to limit consumption. And - meh - the decision was made to limit consumption.

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I think - mind, think - that car makers may be innocent in this particular instance; I am pretty sure I read some time ago (Just as Dieselgate blew up) that regulations required AdBlue to be refilled primarily by workshops - this as it directly affected the emissions of the vehicle, and as such shouldn't (couldn't?) be entrusted to Joe Q. Public to do.

However, at least around here they sell it at (some) gas stations, and the user manual (2012 Passat 3c) shows how you go about topping it up, so it can't be that much of a concern.

Just another step to the complete infantilization of citizens by the government. If you can't pour a liquid into another container, you have no business being outdoors.

I will note that about 13 million Americans already live in states where it's illegal to pump your own gasoline.

Yes, and this does in fact infantalize people. But it's an unintended consequence of it's functional purpose: job creation (regardless of the stated justification for the law).

That's a jobs program.

It's only partly a jobs program. Really, the jobs are mostly a side effect. Jersey people love their full service stations and are very protective of it. In and out, don't get out of the car, don't mess up your precious hair and hands dealing with the elements or the pump, back on the road. I don't identify with the attitude at all, but it's a real part of the culture. I've been chased back into my car by attendants more than once in Jersey. Nowadays I typically fill up before crossing state lines and drive across the state nonstop, even though the gas tax is lower in Jersey.

Oregon is a full-service state. Washington is not.

I strongly doubt that there is a significant cultural difference between the two, in terms of car culture.

Once somewhat strung out from driving I bailed on an Oregon gas station and drove another ten miles into California to pump my gas.

My blotto California brain went 'no! no one is touching my car!'

I can understand not bothering to drive to Jersey just to get gas (though it is cheaper), but spending more to fill up before crossing the border solely to avoid the experience of someone else pumping gas for you seems a little extreme. Is there more to your dislike of NJ gas stations? Whatever the reason, I respect you for having the courage of your convictions, especially this time of year!

Maybe bluead just doesn't want to deal with people? I go out of my way to avoid full service for that reason too.

On the other hand, when strapped for cash, many citizens will stop doing it. You can make it illegal to drive with that tank empty, but that still won't make many citizens do it. The environment is better off this way.

Perhaps they could mandate another additive to diesel that gives it a very apparent coloured plume in its exhaust; and then another additive to AdBlue that oxidizes/reduces that additive. Then you just tell police to pull over anyone with black fumes coming from their cars.

There's no need for any of this. DEF diesel engines already go into limp mode not long after the fluid runs dry (after ignoring many warnings). There are sensors such that just replacing with any arbitrary diesel-compatible fluid won't fool it (thought that would be stupid to do). And most states have annual inspections that include emissions, you would not pass with a dry Adblue tank. No need for dramatic exhaust; the cops can run your plates and see your inspection is expired.

Haha inspections, you're funny.

That one is simple, just make the vehicle not run when certain conditions aren't met. Most diesel trucks already do this from the factory, if you don't follow the regen. cycle the truck just turns off.

That wouldn't sell well. Manufacturers would end up doing more to make sure it doesn't run out. This is my point - read back up the thread.

What do you mean it wouldn't sell well? DEF diesels in the US do go into limp mode (5 mph limit) if you ignore the empty DEF alerts.

Well, they don't sell well in the US, but they didn't sell well prior to DEF, so I don't think you can pin the blame on that.

Seems to sell just fine in the current market, I haven't seen a huge move away from Diesels as a result of its introduction.

Well, running the engine (or not to) with empty AdBlue tank has nothing to do with topping it up yourself.

- You can let the tank go empty and not turn up to the workshop for the fill up, how does disallowing to top it up yourself prevent that?

- Many current cars with AdBlue will flash increasingly annoying warnings at you, and although many people drive with check engine lights lit, running out of urea will display you a counter of remaining kilometers and the car will simply refuse to start when empty. Again, nothing to do with whether you push the car to the dealership on foot or fill the tank yourself from the bottle (and actually, there are very foolproof anti-spill bottles, which let the liquid go only when tightly screwed onto the DEF tank).

> Well, running the engine (or not to) with empty AdBlue tank has nothing to do with topping it up yourself.

Yes it does, since it affects the design of the vehicle. Remember that the context of this thread includes:

"So the tank needs to be large enough to cover a full maintenance interval...or creative solution to limit consumption."

How much does urea actually cost? If your car smells like a coal plant, it's kind of a turn-off to potential passengers.

Advanced Auto Parts sells 2.5 gallons, which would last you 10k miles at least, for $12.

Unless you don't go to the shop to get it filled up.

If it's really a question of forcing people to refill the tank you could have the engine refuse to start if the tank is empty.

I thought there was an issue with contamination and efficiency, or at least a fear.

There are more fundamental issues though, the car needs to not run if it's empty, a lot of people drive around with their dashboard lit up and don't care. People will balk at having a full tank of gas and the car shuts down because of DEF.

AdBlue is the same as truck DEF, which can be purchased at most auto supply stores and fuel stations. In my experience, pretty much every car that comes with an urea system can be refilled by the user. That makes sense--it's not like you can make emissions worse by filling up the tank.

Not generally true. In addition to those mentioned, the Chevy Cruze diesel has an Adblue tank easily accessible in the trunk. Refilling the Adblue is no harder than topping up your wiper fluid. It takes a standard bottle with a built-in spill-proof adapter. If for some reason you don't have such a bottle, you can just use a regular old funnel.

There's an idiot light type indicator that tells you when the change is coming up, just as with oil changes, and if ignored I think the engine will go eventually go into a kind of limp mode.

I think it was more that they didn't want customers to have to fill it, as it's just one more annoying maintenance item to take care of it.

I've never seen any warning or notice stating that it should not be filled by owners. I have a diesel VW and refilling the tank is pretty easy. The dealer didn't have any qualms selling it to me.

I'm not sure about any other cars, but Land Rover will happily sell you bottles of AdBlue and you can add it yourself. I wonder if that's because Land Rovers traditionally were expedition vehicles and you can't realistically expect to be able to find AdBlue in the middle of Kazakhstan for example.

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