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Comment by Angostura | Hacker News Reader

> organic farming's main tool to combat weeds and regrowth is tillage

No - mulching, no and no til are very common

> For example, some organic farmers literally salt their soil

Certainly in the UK you wouldn't get organic certification for doing that. The certified pesticides over here are genderally safer for the environment, if more labour intensive.

> Conventional farmers care far more about the value of their land than organic farmers do

Really no. Conventional farmers can quickly boost the fertility of their soil by adding some quick-fix nutrients.

> they sometimes spread massive amounts of manure on their fields

Where do you think this manure goes otherwise?

> Their major costs are diesel, herbicides & pesticides -- minimizing those is both good for the farmer's pocketbook and the environment.

Unless of course, there's a really cheap pesticide that is appalling for the environment.

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But you can put copper compounds on your organic crops under certain circumstances in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_pesticide

"Really no. Conventional farmers can quickly boost the fertility of their soil by adding some quick-fix nutrients."

Maybe in the UK, but definitely not here in Saskatchewan. Once soil has been destroyed through tillage, it takes a good decade of rehabilitation to make the soil viable again. Lost organic matter can't be replaced with a chemical fertilizer.

Can you please try to add sources? The majority of what you're arguing goes against everything I've learned. Also, saying tilling alone turned the Fertile Crescent into Iraqi deserts is absurd. There is myriad evidence of climate change playing a big part in that over the last few thousand years. I'm not saying it didn't perhaps contribute, but stating it's the direct cause is ridiculous. Also, not for nothing, but you're comparing soil recovery times in Saskatchewan (far from ideal growing conditions) to anywhere else as though the less than ideal growing conditions there are a representative sample of conditions worldwide, which is misleading at best.

Support for a lot of the statements can be found in the refs of this Science VS podcast episode [1] which, in its 3rd part, deals specifically with the environmental impact of organic farming.

[1] https://gimletmedia.com/episode/5-organic-food/

tilling is the worst thing you can do to soil. just tilling once would destroy the soil structure and it would take forever to rebuild it.

i cant speak for commodity farming, but for vegetable farms, fertility doesnt have to be lost. the problem is that farming ceased to be a closed loop system long ago when we started mechanising farm equipment. the environmental degradation is astounding. and unnecessary.

no till farming promotes carbon sequestration. the cascading good effects of no till is well documented. first, it helps with erosion issues...which protects our water from contamination. good soil holds water. irrigation needs are reduced. huge machinery compacts the soil and causes hard pan. we are losing thousands of inches of top soil every year.

imagine if we did this.trying to scrubbing off old tired skin every night and painting an artificial skin everyday in the morning. the only way to maintain good skin is to feed it from the inside...stay hydrated. the more you scrub, the thicker the paint. eventually, you'd have no skin of your own.

it is the same with soil. the eco system is self-correcting. there is tremendous value to this. all the inputs we use..from fertilizers to pesticides to herbicides...become necessary because we have pierced a self correcting, self balancing system. the soil web is so complicated and delicate. it is entirely capable of keeping itself healthy. inputs cost $. more labour. less productivity as more dependence on outside inputs. farms that grow corn or soy or sweet beets do this on 5000-6000 acres. (all of this doesnt equate to 'food' per se..we hardly grow enough grain to be self sustainable..we dont grow millet or 'small grains' which are drought tolerant and more disease resistant.) but our vegetables are grown in succession multiple times in one growing season. maybe this is why our diet is so messed up in america.

agriculture in america is about the care and feeding of businesses. not its population. the debt of farmers is astounding..farmer debt is crushing. the numbers are shrinking every year. eventually there will be no food soverignity here because food will have to come from outside.

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