Hacker News Reader

> but the game disables mouse-input if you are using a controller, which means you can't use the Steam Controller to its full capability.

Yeah, the Valve team (and me, I'm the OP) are specifically pushing hard on this -- an emerging best practice is to always allow simultaneous mouse & gamepad input.

I'm only halfway through the written post right now but it's absolutely amazing so far. Thank you for writing this!

I should also make sure to mention that most popular controller models are now supported by the Steam Controller configurator, so if the main thing that appealed to you was the configuration, you can get that with a DS4, an XBox360 pad, an XBox One controller, or basically any XInput device. There's also some experimental DInput support, too.

But if what you want is just exactly the Valve Steam Controller model with more heft, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

This can have some hilarious outcomes though.

Specifically, I'm thinking of how Call of Duty Black Ops III gives controllers a whole bunch of aim assist so they don't get dunked on by people using mouse+keyboard. Guess what used to happen if you plugged in a controller and played with the mouse?

In an ideal world, the fix would be to not give half your players an aimbot, but you just know the product manager wouldn't go for that. Looks like they ended up adding a patch that tries to figure out whether you're actually using the controller.

https://www.reddit.com/r/blackops3/comments/44yfri/pc_aim_as...

Many would disable auto aim and aim assist because it is generally terrible and makes using the mouse harder.

Shooting someone in and FPS with a mouse is literally just clicking on something, do you need help clicking on icons?. It is not difficult until the target gets very small or is moving in a specific unfavorable way. Those are both situations where auto-aim tends to help less, like ignoring far targets or aiming at instead of ahead of moving targets. Then there are the times I have been lined up for a perfect headshot only to have the auto aim pull my gun of course and blast center mass giving the enemy precious seconds to respond with their rocket launcher or equally fatal weapon.

> In an ideal world, the fix would be to not give half your players an aimbot, but you just know the product manager wouldn't go for that. Looks like they ended up adding a patch that tries to figure out whether you're actually using the controller.

No, this is the ideal world. Mouse users have more manual accuracy, couch gamers can still have fun vs. mouse users. Combating fringe cases (how many people actually plug in a controller and a mouse at the same time..?) makes no sense. This 'divide' worked like a charm on Titanfall.

> fringe cases (how many people actually plug in a controller and a mouse at the same time..?)

There are good reasons to have both, and no reason to unplug either of them except to work around a buggy game.

Heck, on a laptop, you can't even unplug the "mouse" (touchpad).

> how many people actually plug in a controller and a mouse at the same time?

How many people actually unplug things when they, uh, don't need them for a second or two?

I leave my monitor plugged. I leave my power cord plugged. I leave my keyboard and mouse plugged. I leave my headphones plugged. I leave my hard drive plugged. I leave my ethernet cable plugged. Why should I not leave my controller plugged?

Your controller will turn on and off to save battery and when batteries run dry and need to replace them.

There's nothing more frustrating than running out of batteries in a controller and the game just locks you into mouse input... on a living room PC.

Not all controllers run on batteries. You can get wired Xbox controllers for example.

I use wired Xbox controllers on pc.

There were also some games where the player just runs faster when holding both w and up arrow on the keyboard plus forward on the controller.

Not that anyone but speed runners actually would do this to themselves.

Will there be any support or thought given to helping older games along somehow?

I've been spending some time lately making control layouts for old games (and using it as an excuse to replay the original Deus Ex), and while the configurator works really well, it still has some issues around getting users up-to-speed with their selected layouts (letting the profile adjust the "controller HUD" popups would probably go a long way towards this).

There is the Steam Controller Database at http://www.steamcontrollerdb.com

I absolutely love when games properly do this.

As in, being able to jump back and forth between controller and mouse, with all the visuals changing too. Hopefully it catches on more.

Regarding the visual changes, I actually find this occasionally problematic when using the steam controller because it's so jarring.

Running around with a joystick to suddenly see keyboard prompts pop up when I aim is a bad user experience, even if it is relating the truth.

I would like to see games detect the steam controller and default to using the controller visuals even when there is mouse (or keyboard) input.

Steam has an API for that. The game needs to expose the in-game actions directly. Then, when showing a button reminder, they can query Steam for which buttons are actually bound to that action. I'm aware of Portal 2 using that API, but not who else supports it.

> I use the Steam Link + Steam Controller to play games from my PC in my home office on my TV in my living room, a lot.

Way off-topic. I got round to setting up NVIDIA GameStream on the Pi (with Moonlight-embedded). What a pleasure. NVIDIA's work with being able to change game settings has paid off - my projector is 1024x768 and all games that I've tried automatically run at that resolution. Steam plays very nicely with GameStream, too (I just wish Valve would release a client for the Pi). This type of setup is definitely the future of couch gaming.

I also bought a steam controller too and i stopped using it because the mouse joystick is pretty bad for fps games (IMO).

The mouse joystick is not very sensitive to slight movements of my thumbs. Thus, its basically impossible for sniping. It is possible to configure the joystick like a normal gamepad joystick but then I require really low sensitivity to aim well.

I figure it would work better on other kinds of games. Probably my favorite feature of the controller is that u can make the controller aim the camera with movement. Thus moving the controller up moves the camera up :D.

You can customize it quite a bit, dead zones, sensitivity curves, etc. But its just not the same as aiming with a mouse in a FPS. Twitchy games are basically impossible with the controller.

The article says you're supposed to use the gyro for fine aim.

> "I mostly use my Xbox controllers..."

I feel like I should give MS some credit for the Xbox One controller. It's a very high quality controller, IMO.

- It doesn't flex or make any creaking noises when you're squeezing it really hard (during extreme rage situations).

- The triggers have rubber bump stops. Believe it or not, this simple “feature” alone makes the controller feel much more premium to me. My aftermarket Xbox controller doesn’t have these and the triggers make a “cheap” plastic sound when you press them quickly. It’s almost like the entire controller is resonating at a high frequency.

- The joysticks are “tight” and precise. However, they do tend to accumulate some slop over time.

- It’s a comfortable shape overall.

I'm a PC guy these days but I still use my launch Xbox 360 controller long after the 360 it came with died (mainly for platformers and GTA). I'm not a hardcore gamer by any means but it certainly saw a lot of Halo 3 and Burnout action and is still going strong today. I've looked at the Steam controllers and while they look great, I can't really justify the purchase as I don't think it would be enough of an upgrade for my occasional usage.

I had the same problems as you with the Steam Controller.

I was one of the first customers to get one and used it to play through Portal 2 (which was bundled with it) and really liked the experience. Playing a little bit Civ 5 in between was also good.

After that I sold it (even with a small profit) because it felt cheap but mostly because it lacked a rechargeable battery and headphone jack, both of which the Xbox One controller has (and every modern controller should have).

I would buy one if they shipped it with a rechargeable battery, headphone jack and a build quality comparable to the Xbox One controller (which is really gread imho) for around the same price.

I'd just like to clarify that the Xbox One controller doesn't include a rechargeable battery. It's an expensive add on.

True. My exotic workaround was to buy rechargeable AA batteries from the pharmacy. If you buy a 4 pack, you can have a pipeline of always-charged batteries.

Or buy a set of rechargeable AA batteries like Eneloops -- one pair can live in the wall charger while the other is being drained by the controller.

I have a bunch of them, and the batteries drain slowly enough that I only need two extra AAs in the charger, even though I have probably a dozen devices using the batteries.

Sure, but in that way, it has just as much of a rechargeable battery as the Steam Controller does, which is what we were comparing it to.

Re: rechargeable battery. Just get some Eneloops and call it a day. They are seriously the best things ever, I go through batteries like a crazy man when shooting photos.

+1 for eneloops. Don't know what kind of black magic is in them but they're fabulous.

Yeah, I don't understand why people actively demand some proprietary battery + charger solution when the universal solution of standard size rechargeable cells has been around for ages. Eneloops are particularly nice.

What does "it feels cheap" actually mean? Some people keep saying this, but I suspect they are expressing their own personal pejorative opinions of materials, and not actually whether those materials are fit for purpose and doing the job intended.

It is the same with phones. Glass or Machines Aluminium are supposedly "premium" despite that they easily scratch and break/bend/shatter, are heavy, make it difficult to implement core features like antennas, etc etc. I think "premium" just means "expensive", as in, "look at my conspicuous display of wealth, I can afford to spend money on materials for my phone which are entirely unsuitable when considered in any objective way". Give me some robust plastic any day.

This is how it is with the steam controller. Valve made the "mistake" of constructing a controller that is light and strong, from plastic. A handheld device being light is a GOOD thing. But everybody complains of it being "cheap" - perhaps they should have made it from machined aluminium or gorilla glass or something absurd like that.

See also headphones that have non-functional chunks of metal added to make them heavier and increase the feeling of quality.

Supposedly Ford even did that to a recent version of their F-series.

I haven't used the Steam controller, but when someone talks about a controller feeling cheap, I assume that they're referring to "creaking" under stress, lack of rubber stops on the triggers (i.e., when you press it all the way down, it feels like the trigger is bottoming out on plastic), sounds during vibration, etc...

That said, I have no clue whether the Steam controller exhibits some of these properties or not.

I think it feels cheap because it feels like rubber and it doesn't have any weight. It feels like a toy when I hold it in my massive hands. My Xbox controllers feel more "real".

I would normally be totally okay with a controller "feeling cheap", and think of it as a positive (especially since it means the price isn't inflated for no good reason), it's just with the mixture of constant-growing-pains that makes me snap out of disbelief and say "why am I using this controller?" to myself a lot.

I in no way think Valve made a mistake making this controller, as I stated I use it a lot, I just think I personally would be more inclined to stick through the growing pains if I had paid more money and was more invested and knew that when I put in the time to configure it perfectly for a game it'd be a "premium" experience all around.

When it comes to a controller, or anything, that I myself just use inside my own apartment and no one else sees ever, I'm not talking about it feeling cheap as a way of not letting me demonstrate my wealth and purchasing power to the world.

Open it up and hot-glue some fishing weights inside.

I know exactly what you mean about feeling cheap and lacking heft, but it's usually about sheer weight, not materials or build quality. A lot of cheap, poorly-made products are lightweight because they shave material to save money, so our brains associate "lightweight" with "poor quality".

In my experience it really shines with turn-based games; I've played way more XCOM, Civilization, and South Park: Stick of Truth from my couch with the Steam Link + Controller than on my PC.

My biggest complaint is finding games that I can scale the UI up enough to be comfortable viewing from 8-10 feet away. My eyes just can't read 12pt text at that distance...

or games that don't get chopped on 21:9 resolutions.

Oh my god, the fact that games won't scale the font size up kills me!

I end up sitting on some cushions on the floor most of the time since I can't read the text from my couch.

I work at a large games studio, and we ordered a box of Steam Controllers on launch, everyone was so excited about them - now I think they are all in a bin somewhere, they are just cheap feeling and nowhere near as good as what Valve was trying to sell.

If you are happy to spend $150 on a controller, I can deeply recommend the Xbox One Elite controller. I don't know anyone who isn't happy with theirs - the price is stupid, but the build quality is unrivaled, there's nothing like it on the market.

You might want to check out the Xbox One Elite controller. Sounds like what you're looking for - a much better feeling, and it makes a regular Xbox One controller feel cheap.

Oh this reminds me I actually own an elite controller... I put it back in the box after trying to use it a few times with my Xbox.

I kept hitting the buttons on the back by accident, but I never tried using it on my computer or anything outside of the Xbox itself.

It felt really good in my hands though. I'm going to go try right now, thanks for the reminder!

I actually took those paddles off for the same reason! Don't forget that you can remove them :)

Also, I was really bummed out that the paddles can only be mapped to the existing buttons and can't be used for additional functions (even on a PC!)

I was hoping this Stream driver would solve that but apparently it's a hardware design (and a bad one IMO)

And it's not all existing buttons. For example you can't map either of the stick clicks or the start/back buttons to the paddles.

Another annoyance is there is no quick way to switch more than 2 configs. I would love to be able to set it up like the SC where you can map the config to a specific game so it is alway set correctly.

http://shawnquereshi.com/2016/02/binding-the-elite-controlle...

This makes it sound like it's not a hardware problem.

Oh wow, thank you so much for that link!

Or remove the larger paddles and put the smaller ones in their place. I have a couple of Scuff controllers and got used to how you had to give their paddles a good hard press to get a reliable response, so the switched-around smaller paddles on the Elite controller were a little too easy to knock initially. I eventually got used to how responsive the Elite controllers paddles are with the added benefit of having more grip space by removing the larger set, even compared to the Scuffs. Now the Scuffs feel like using a potato - very plastic-y and dull compared to the all-metal magnetic-locking set. It's like the difference between a quality chef knife and one purchased from a $2 store.

Also love the circular all-metal D-pad and thumb-stick extensions...and switches providing adjustable travel for the triggers...and the configuration toggle switch. It's a sweet piece of hardware.

When I was playing psychonauts I had to use the mouse for some of the menus, it was annoying. I too was playing on the TV with the steam link (I love the steam link btw, I actually use it to play media off my PC with big-picture mode minimized).

I got a cheap wireless keyboard/touchpad combo that I leave plugged into the steam link so I can deal with those random scenarios where you need a mouse and/or keyboard to deal with menus, but so far that hasn't been often.

Why don't you just use an action set or binding that gives you mouse on the right pad? You could even set up double tap to click.

You nailed my issues with the steamlink. There currently isn't enough explicit support, and when you run into a game that runs as a win32 executable with menus, etc, it completely rips you out of the experience.

I think it does a pretty good job with what it has, and if they can get more people onboard to being steam link friendly I think over time it'll be a great experience, but for now it's more of a first generation type thing.

I liked the idea of the steam controller, but I returned it for a refund. The act of getting a configuration that I was happy with ended up just making me wonder why I shouldn't just play with a 360 controller or a mouse and keyboard anyway (even from the couch I've found a comfortable position for a mouse).

I have an xbox controller and a steam controller. In my experience, if the game has out of the box controls for an xbox controller, using it is always superior.

I don't regret my steam controller purchase though because it fulfills a useful niche: allowing me to play games that weren't designed for controller input from my couch. This is mostly because of their awesomely powerful configuration tool - they really thought of everything. The two touchpads on the controller and the ability to use the overlay for on-screen menus also increase flexibility when mapping controls for complex games.

This is mostly useful for older games in my experience, as newer games that would make sense with a controller generally already come with Xinput support.

I found that with the SC the aiming for games just isn't there. I miss the right analog stick too much, and despite trying I couldn't get anywhere near the accuracy with the SC as I could from a normal XBox 360, or XBox One controller. For games like FPS I just haven't found that the SC is workable.

Are you using the gyro as well?

I find that gyro aim works well, it's just the other conveniences of using a stick that I miss. I currently have my right touchpad set up to continue sending input when I'm touching an outer portion but there seems to always be a hiccup before it switches from mouse to continuous input. Pretty frustrating for a game like GTA V in third person.

I also miss being able to smash a stick to the limit and occasionally find myself using less confident swipes on the touchpad or my thumb slipping off.

Hold on, there is gyro ? In games I often see the option for rumble, which simply does not work for me too, same as gyro. Maybe because I am on Linux ?

After using the SC for about six months as my almost-exclusive controller, only reverting to my 360 controller when the SC won't work for some reason or another, I'm far more precise and fast with the SC.

Consider that you've probably been playing shooters for years with the joystick, it takes a lot of time to master an input scheme. I had over 10 years of dual analog experience, starting with Halo CE, and already after 6 months I'm far better with the SC than I was with the joysticks.

Have you tried combining the right pad with the gyroscope? Sometimes it's all you need to get there.

Wouldn't your Xbox controller be connected to your Steam Link?

The Steam Link does not seem to be able to connect to my Xbox controllers. It can connect to my Steam Controller and DualShock controllers natively, and has USB ports for wired controllers or extra network adapters.

My Xbox controllers are on some weird Microsoft waveband that only works with Windows drivers, so I have to use a big extension cable connecting the adapter to my PC not the Steam Link.

>I think if I paid a bit more for it and it felt more premium, I'd be more invested

I forwarded this post to Apple.

Just FYI I am a UNIX neckbeard, Python developer, Android developer and have been making open-source Android applications since 2008, if that helps with your judgment of me :)