Standing up for what's right
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(America is bombing seven countries by the way, in case anyone forgot. Our last president is the first in history to have the US in armed conflict for every day of his presidency. He will not be the last.)
What I also hate is that Uber tries to play the PR game and show themselves as the great guys here. Forget that they pay their drivers peanuts, that drivers have to drive up to 30% more now to make the same wages as just a few years ago, and that many are calling Uber to unionise.
I hate they way everyone is just using people to further their message and forgetting that these are people.
I hate they way everyone is just using people to further their message and forgetting that these are people.
This +100. From what friends who were early at Uber tell me, this is not consistent with his character and feels like a PR grab. This issue is beyond f'd up, and while I guess any attention is good attention if it causes action, I draw the line at giving credit for cheap PR stunts.
I think this line of argument weakens "our" position considerably.
I also doubt that opposing positions on one the current government's key issues is actually free. Uber has a lot of local regulatory issues, and complex enough international setup - federal (and some state's) goodwill surely has some affect on Uber's success.
Are you sure about that? A large percentage of Uber drivers are immigrants.
Immigration drives down semi and unskilled worker's wages (which drives up profits).
Uber absolutely has a dog in this fight.
Arguably the reason why Trump's rhetoric has struck such a chord is precisely because wages have been driven down by (among other things) immigration.
I have seen the fallout from friends who personally experienced horrible treatment by the guy, so this fake hero crusade is what I take issue with. Uber paying affected drivers, on the other hand, is fantastic.
*Edited for clarity.
All that is fine, so long as over time it forms a more free, open, and welcoming society for everyone.
No one is forgetting Uber is a company with a checkered past. This just fills in one of the good squares in contrast to the bad ones.
The right thing to do is for Kalanick to loudly and publicly resign his position on Trump's "economic advisory group".
This group has zero influence on the administration. Its only purpose is to legitimize the administration and its policies of hate.
In exchange for collaboration and legitimization, Kalanick might buy some preferential treatment for Uber. There's nothing principled here.
If the Muslim ban stands and Kalanick doesn't resign, it will be obvious that he's a total hypocrite.
Far from "standing up for what's right", Kalanick has sold out to hate.
I support tech companies (and everybody else) speaking out, emphatically, against this order, even if I think the company speaking out has kind of questionable moral standing. If only those who are perfect can act against evil actions by our government, then we're in serious trouble.
Uber is imperfect. But, if they are sincere, I support them in this. And, perhaps if it comes time for armed insurrection to depose our Vichy regime, we can all hail an Uber and roll up to the revolution in style.
Any comparison to Nazi Germany and the events that led to the rise of fascism is prone to be reaching; and prone to be dismissed by someone because there are many gaps in the comparison. Likewise, while there are certainly similarities to Italy's Mussolini and Spain's Franco, that's also a stretch. The world we live in is very different from that time and place. Fascism looks different today.
So...it's an imperfect metaphor. I merely wanted to poke fun at the craven GOP who have fallen in line behind a man they spent months criticizing and calling out for his fascist traits. Now that he's in a position of power they kowtow to him. More worrying, law enforcement, Customs and Border Protection, and significant sections of the civilian and military government seem to be falling into line behind him rather than pushing back on his unconstitutional and illegal orders, even when I don't think they share his ideals. That's where my Vichy comparison comes from.
It's a stretch, I know. But, every comparison to historic fascists is. It doesn't make it less true that our new president is behaving like a fascist, and seems to have significant support.
Also, Putin's Russia probably had a hand in putting our new president into office.
Why? It happens all the time, and shockingly, even before Trump got into office.
A green card does not guarantee you entry into the US. I was informed of this many times when I entered using one. Leave the US for more than 6 months? You can be turned back (and your permanent resident status canceled). Among other reasons.
If you have thousands of dollars and a week or two to waste.
> Canada or Mexico
If you can get a visa for those places. Both of your ideas are things I, as an affluent Westerner, would try if the US government stuck me on a no-fly list, but for the people targeted they may simply not be possible.
Horribly inconvenient, but not a blanket ban.
I'm having trouble finding dates for some of these cases and none seem to have happened while GWB was POTUS. But here are a few links involving US citizens whose ability to travel into and out of the US were curtailed. None of the following links are the case I remember, which involved an American who was a father (from NY?) and who had been stranded from his family in the US.
• U.S. Veterans Stranded Overseas|Challenge No-Fly ‘Terror’ List [0]
• ACLU challenges constitutionality of no-fly list [1]
• No-fly list grounds another San Diegan [2]
• How a Young American Escaped the No-Fly List [3]
[1] https://www.publicintegrity.org/2010/06/30/2631/aclu-challen...
[2] http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/watchdog/sdut-no-fl...
[3] https://theintercept.com/2016/01/21/how-a-young-american-esc...
EDIT: formatting
Honestly, this is why I don't complain very much about biometrics and databases, because the realistic alternative (potentially being detained at the border while they try to guess whether your passport is forged/altered/stolen) is much worse.
What's different here is that nobody's arguing that their status has changed. They are legal residents, and they're being forbidden from entering anyway. These are not the same thing, and it's legitimate to be more upset about one case than the other.
It's the difference between being towed because you parked in a fire lane (that's your fault), and for being towed when someone came up after you parked, painted in a fire lane, and then towed you (not your fault).
I've actually had this with a handicapped parking spot that was created while my car was in the spot and got fined immediately after they finished putting the post up.
I tried getting it reversed but not dice. Very frustrating.
IJmuiden, NL.
> And did you try to appeal?
Yes, I did.
> That seems crazy.
It is crazy. Especially since the RDW (local equivalent of the DMV) has my address on file and I lived right across the street. All they had to do was ring the bell and ask me to move my car. Hefty fine too, 140 guilders at the time (70 Euros or so today).
A couple of such incidents in your life and you start to feel really bad about authorities of any plumage.
The US government down to the municipal level, is not bound by that concept. Ignorance of the law etc. It's strange how many people are figuring out how screwed up the US system is AFTER they decided they don't like something. It smacks of the same behavior that US politicians engage in. Idiocy married with desperation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_Stat...
> No State shall [...] pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts [...]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_Stat...
Woman says red zone painted after she parked:
http://abc7news.com/news/woman-says-red-zone-painted-after-s...
However, the way his office implemented this was terribly irresponsible:
1. Usually immigration policy changes have a window to take effect so that they don't leave a bunch of people in legal limbo. This one didn't. It's quite obviously on purpose.
2. Similar to #1, by not giving agencies enough time to prepare for the policies in question Trump's team has maximized the opportunity for mistakes and deliberately racist actions from within his agencies. Which is what we are seeing, particularly with green card holders (WHY EVEN?) and citizens being banned (sorry sir, too brown for us).
3. Usually when the Executive pens an EO, the staff has vetted the legality of the EO and if it's not directly enforcible this is well understood in advance. Trump's office does not have the power to do this, but does have the power to enforce the law. By issuing this edict, Trump has forced an illegal policy into law and then demanded taxpayer time and money be wasted dealing with the series of domestic and international lawsuits that are inbound over it.
If this is what we can expect from Trump, we can expect the dissolution of the rule of law.
> Does travel outside the United States affect my permanent resident status?
> Permanent residents are free to travel outside the United States, and temporary or brief travel usually does not affect your permanent resident status
- https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/after-green-card-granted/in...
Yesterday, they found out they were lied to.
It does? How often?
"Have you traveled to, or been present in, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia, or Yemen..."
[1] https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/visa-waive...
The choice of countries may not be arbitrary. The Executive Order is most definitely Trump's choice.
Edit: My parent has since changed the quoted section to "so it's not an arbitrary pick by Trump".
The distance between declaring a whole nation to be "high risk" and refusing entry to those coming from those "high risk" nations is very slim.
It would be understandable if there was any backlash or public outcry against labeling whole nations and all people passing through them as being "high risk", but there was none.
As there was zero oucry, this sounds a whole lot more like partisan, kneejerk anti-Trump rants than anything else.
Perhaps this is only a wakeup call for americans to take a long hard look at their immigration and foreign relations policies, which have been put in place since the early 2000s. Trump hasn't revolutionized anything. If anything, he is only directing attention to what the US has been continuously doing since then.
I don't know if this is true. Off the top of my head: Lyndon Johnson.
The USA also never passed a declaration of war against North Vietnam, whereas Obama claimed to be operating under the 'War on Terror' declaration for his whole presidency.
I believe that Obama also has the record for bombing the most countries, though many drone and bombing campaigns have not been fully disclosed (i.e. the extent of the Phillipines campaign).
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_B._Johnson#Gulf_of_Tonk...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#Exit_of_the_Americ...
[1] https://twitter.com/nadhimzahawi/status/825445925275500545
But Any country other than the US? Heck, I know what I'm going through with immigration here in Norway, and I have one of the easier immigration avenues - marriage. Work and school are quite a bit more difficult. It usually requires one to live here for at least 7 years first: Marriage can cut that in half. That comes with things like the possiblity of having our house inspected so that the authorities are convinced we are living like a married couple and possible interviews with my spouse. Some countries have a more thorough check.
It just isn't the bureaucratic lottery nightmare that it is in the states. That doesn't mean that it is easy, merely better run and reasonable.
What's the point of casting aspersions on Uber's motives here? I'm pretty sure everyone at Uber has lots of middle eastern coworkers. They have every reason to be utterly horrified. Is it possible that they are, in fact, actually horrified and talking about this publicly is not just a part of some cunning scheme?
I'm not a big fan of the policy precedents that TK has set, and sure, this is probably a publicity stunt, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a vocal, commendable move by someone in a position to drive change.
Kalanick can't claim to "stand up for what's right" while simultaneously joining the administration's economic advisory group.
Collaborating with the Trump administration gives it badly needed legitimacy and credibility and facilitates the polices of hate.
Collaboration undoubtedly benefits Uber, but you can't call it "standing up for what's right".
Yeah, before I was worried that the Trump administration was illegitimate, but then Travis agreed to be part of their "Strategic and Policy Forum", and now I'm with Trump 100%.
The answers to our problems aren't blatant partisanship, but a robust exchange of ideas. If Trump invites anyone from SV, it'd be extremely foolish to "protest" by taking yourself out of the conversation.
Conversate with whom exactly? Trump? Bannon? When have these idiots ever given any indication that they're willing to listen to someone who contradicts them? Are there any examples of them actually having listened to someone, taken their advice, and done it all with an even temper? And how exactly is TK "protesting from within" the system? What concrete steps is he likely to take over the next four years that will impact the opinions of the petulant child Americans are forced to call their president?
It's a mistake to not think of this current presidency as unprecedented in it's potential for terror. The path of civilized conduct works with people who are willing to meet you halfway by behaving in a civil manner themselves. Trump just isn't.
Also, I'm more than a little tired of SV CEOs walking around with this transparent facade of integrity and paying lip service to doing the right thign. They care about one thing, and one thing only: protecting their company at all cost, country be damned. It's no use them saying "If we don't do it, someone else will" because that isn't enough of an exoneration of their own conduct. They aren't machines designed with the single purpose of working for a company. They are humans who are expected to have a moral core.
For example, his policy on torture has swayed back and forth based almost entirely on conversations with Mattis.
I honestly do think directly talking to Trump and explaining the real harm his policies are doing to American companies is one of the most effective things that CEOs can do.
Edit: sorry, you didn't say you voted for him, just that you supported his campaign.
We're bombing people in almost every country on the list, so I have no idea why this wasn't done years ago.
Of course, in practice it's rarely done without cause (e.g. committing a felony), but in the texts it is clearly stated.
As a green card holder, you are not a US LPR at the discretion of the President or any of his agencies. You have, in effect, a contract with our country. Congress could change the rules, but until they do, you have substantial rights to remain in this country.
Even people without LPR status are difficult for the government to remove. Among undocumented immigrants put before immigration court for deportation, over 70% of those with legal representation prevail in court --- unfortunately, in most places in the US, they have no right to counsel, which is why we should all be sending money to immigration law organizations.
It is numerically, overwhelmingly the case that immigrants to this country aren't a threat to its citizens, and that we have more to fear from lawnmowers and lightning strikes than we do from the people who are being turned away at the borders today, including people coming to the country to work on computational epidemiology and, of course, the spouses of our own citizens.
The US would be far better off allowing the same number of people in but only those highly educated or those with a lot of money or status. It sounds mean but job of the US govt is not to rescue poor people in third world countries, it's to benefit it's citizens.
Imagine if instead of 6-8 million illegal immigrants with largely low educations, limited English skills and earning potential, no money, and no status we let in 6 million CEO's, scientists, politicians, and billionaires. It's hard to argue that the current situation is in any way "better"
Most ilegal immigrants want to move towards a legal status and integrate successfully in the country.
The "burden" of ilegal immigrants is mostly false.
This would lead to the country being completely overwhelmed like is happening in Europe. Did Germany stop letting in unlimited refugees because they were helping the country so much?
Yes, it does. Empirically.
> A country is not a charity.
Countries are obliged to admit refugees.
> It sounds mean but job of the US govt is not to rescue poor people in third world countries, it's to benefit it's citizens.
"Mean" is an interesting way to put "contrary to domestic and international laws and universal human rights [1]".
[1]: See the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 14.
http://lawandborder.com/risk-abandoning-green-card-abroad-6-...
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/444371/donald-trump-ex...
The subtext of these arguments is that we should be less outraged, because green-card-holders were lucky to be here at all and reside in this country knowing they can be removed at any time. That's plainly, flatly, objectively false, in addition to being ethically dubious.
I am glad almost EVERYONE, from my neighbor to the CEO of pretty much every major Co, is speaking out in protest.
Uber can't compete if its workers unionize. Please don't promote the failed anti-free-market ideology of labour unionization, which is based on total economic ignorance and shallow class-warfare cliches that don't conform to the complex reality of economic development and wage growth.
If you talk to Uber drivers, you'll see the vast majority are happy with the opportunity to do what theyre doing. We don't need more misguided calls for authoritarian regulatory prohibitions that violate the right of consenting adults to engage in voluntary economic interactions with each other.
I know it's not fun to see one's wages decline over a span of a few years, but that is what MUST happen if there is a huge influx of Uber drivers that tilts the supply vs demand ratio. Thinking you can legislate the pain away with mandates is failing to grasp that price is an information signal that tells us about supply and demand and allows the economy to adjust accordingly.
>Saying that an employer worth billions of dollars and a potential employee worth many orders of magnitudes less than that have the same negotiating powers is ludicrous.
That's like saying consumers are helpless against Samsung because Samsung is a multibillion dollar company and consumers are individually worth much less. It's one of those thought-terminating clichés that distills the world into a simplistic class-war narrative.
In reality a consumer in a free market has the power to walk away, and choose any better offer that is available to them, and that is all the power they need. Similarly, a person will only continue driving for Uber if no better options are available on the market.
And if no better options are available, that means they're getting the market price for their labour. Using price controls to give them above-market wages has harmful second and third order consequences that reduce long-term wage growth.
In markets Uber operates it is largely a monopoly so market mechanisms that would normally cause drivers to go elsewhere don't exist.
Take for example Austin Texas which has no Uber or Lyft. There's five or six competing ridesharing services with considerable market share. The drivers get paid more than twice as much as Uber drivers because it's easy for unsatisfied drivers to switch to a competitor. A few of my friends who did uber in Houston now drive 3 hours to Austin to pick up riders since the pay is much better
Kalanick is also really shitty. He legitimizes Trump by collaborating with him. It's complete bullshit that he's going to somehow influence this administration "from within".
Kalanick's collaboration does far more damage than any marginal influence he might have.
If Kalanick really wants to "stand up for what's right", he should publicly resign from Trump's "economic advisory group" in protest over this latest outrage.
https://www.facebook.com/dan.abromowitz/posts/4414735886905?...
It is. However, its has been done numerous times before. Border Agents have always had the right to detain anyone, and refuse non-citizens entry regardless of Green Card status.
People have been stopped at the border, searched, held, then turned away while carrying Green Cards before. That this is happening uniformly to people from 7 countries is new, but that's all that's new.
However, is Travis really the best messenger? Is this just glorified PR or does he actually care? I can't read his mind, so we can only judge from his actions. Let's see what he's done to "stand up for what's right" in regards to his own organization (this isn't exhaustive, at all):
- Uber employees order fake rides to sink competitor [1]
- Blaming the media for suggesting Uber is liable [2]
- Blind passengers denied rides [3]
- Uber executives looking into critics' personal lives [4]
----
You may think those things are irrelevant, but one should practice what they preach, especially when they have a post titled: "Standing up for what's right." My examples, by the way, only scratch the surface to Uber's own shady practices.
[1] http://valleywag.gawker.com/ubers-dirty-trick-campaign-again...
[2] https://pando.com/2014/02/27/we-call-that-boob-er-the-four-m...
[3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/09/1...
[4] http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/uber-executive-suggests-dig...
The more messengers, the better. This is authoritarianism, pure and simple. It's not remotely about security or anything else.
If Pence denounced Trump's action and detailed what he was going to do about it, I would suspect his motives, and be concerned that he does not mean what he says, but this is a terrible policy that needs to stopped ASAP, and it's likely I would welcome Pence's help in this circumstance (while stating my reservations about him as a person and political actor).
However, in many situations "the enemy of my enemy is my enemy still", and I might not consider the benefit of accepting Pence's help worth the cost of working with him.
One, should or would Kalanick say to himself, well, maybe I'm not the BEST messenger... so I'll just keep totally quiet on this one...
Two, if he just kept quiet, does it seem possible that people would then complain that he's bad for keeping quiet?
I'd guess that anyone who already thinks this is an outrageously bad decision isn't going to change their mind because they dislike this messenger. As for the others, they seem unpredictable when it comes to what works or doesn't work with them. Maybe they think he's implicitly credible as a rich guy who isn't sentimental and doesn't make an effort to be portrayed as a do-gooder.
There is a saying among photographers: "The best camera is the one you have with you."
I'll give you that Travis is a total scumbag. Maybe he is. Maybe he doesn't care about this issue. I don't care. He's right this time, about this issue, and when we're talking about it, that's good enough for me. Trump's policies will be devastating and he will attempt to loot, pillage, and destroy every part of the country. It will take our country decades to recover from the damage he does, if it ever recovers. If the coalition that forms up against him is slightly different for every issue and creates some unlikely bedfellows, well so be it. We need all the help we can get. The office of the president is unbelievably powerful -- something some of us have been very concerned about since GWB and on through Obama.
In fact anti-Trump republicans/businessmen/'generally all around bad guys' mean a whole lot more right now than the guaranteed liberal coalition against him.
I'm hopeful, but we have to do more than appreciate unity and engagement: we have to build on it, and reinforce it.
So as not to repeat myself:
For the record, I'm super proud of working at Uber because those on the outside never see the things we do for our drivers. This is a big one and I'm really proud. You just don't see this on the news that often because who knows.
I've said this before but the Uber of the last 2 years is not the same Uber from 2013/2014. As a company it has grown up and matured and realizes the responsibilities it has to its drivers, riders and cities.
"We are working out a process to identify these drivers and compensate them pro bono during the next three months"
You could argue it's just a PR thing, I suppose, but it certainly wasn't something I expected to see.
Would it work better if people could choose not to educate their children and instead spend the money on other things?
Saying "It's capitalism" isn't a justification for anything; it's overly reductive, and we do not live in a purely capitalistic society.
If you feel tax rates are generally too high does that make it OK to cheat on your tax return?
This will probably depend on where the driver lives and works. There is also the question of whether they are a 'broker' or not with another taxi, meaning they own their own car and also do Uber and/or Lyft on the side while working with another taxi service. Which is common.
In Toronto where our taxis are far less regulated than other cities like New York, allowing for more supply but higher per ride fares to compensate, all of the drivers I've spoken to have said they make more money per ride with Uber than they do with normal taxi services and always give preference to Uber calls over the dispatcher. Also they have been busier allowing them to do more rides per night worked.
Uber likely increases the amount of people taking rides in any city as it makes the UX easier to call a cab reliably, direct it, and pay for it.
This makes no sense to me. With excess supply, the prices should come down. You'd expect prices to increase when the supply is constricted, as it is during Uber surge pricing. It sounds like maybe Toronto cabs aren't playing by the regular rules of economics, as many other cities' cabs aren't, which is exactly why they've been so prone to disruption.
Indeed, I should have said the supply of cars is less regulated in Toronto, or at least it's not made as artificially low as it is in places like NYC (via medallion system which costs $1 million each). But the prices are still heavily regulated and they set the prices higher so the drivers could make money still as a consequence of having fewer rides due to the greater supply.
The big reason Taxi companies hate Uber is that it messes up their control of supply, keeping it artificially low.
http://www.odwyerpr.com/story/public/6471/2016-03-08/uber-ly...
We're in the best of possible worlds. But it's difficult to fault Uber to the degree some people do when customers express their demand preferences so clearly.
The insanely high star requirements (What is it, 4.4? 4.8?) are more than enough to doubt Uber's charity, especially when your PR department focuses on spinning intentionally breaking laws as a crusade for everyone's rights, instead of communicating all the wonderful things done for drivers.
Imagine if Apple removed apps with lower than a 4.5 star rating, and then an Apple employee commented on Apple's unambiguously helpful response to a national crisis by immediately trashing HN and crowing about all the secret wonderful things Apple does for developers.
The way it ends up working out, barely any but the most egregious drivers will have a sub-4.5 rating or so because the majority of passengers just mindlessly rate 5 stars. Therefore, the difference between someone rated 4.2 and 4.7 is enormous in practice.
https://youtube.googleblog.com/2009/09/five-stars-dominate-r...
Seems like when it comes to ratings it's pretty much all or nothing. Great videos prompt action; anything less prompts indifference.
> Why would the default rating be the very top of the scale?!
Because most people don't care about an average meal, but they do care when it's bad or great.
The only Uber rating I actually ever cared about was a terrible unsafe driver who got into a yelling match with another driver who I gave a 1 and then wrote a lengthy report about. Every other rating has been mostly indifferent, just a ride from one place to another.
I find most people treat it as some sort of evil capitalist strawman punching bag. This type of thing happens when the media/politics pits everything as good guys vs villains.
Either way I'm happy to hear it has improved over the last two years, there will always be these growing pains in any high growth organization from freewheeling startup to an organized responsible mega corp.
I will note that Uber could make these people look very foolish by joining the NY taxi workers strike against this policy.
Eventually, after a long stream of failure, people will eventually come around to the view that there are few things less productive than beating up people who are trying to agree with them.
Does one of the things you do for your drivers include not giving a shit about them? Because last year Uber left Austin Texas rather than comply with the cities background check requirement. Overnight an estimated 10,000 Uber drivers lost their jobs and Uber didn't really give a crap. I find the notion that they give a shit about a few hundred of their drivers stuck overseas laughable
The post can be summarized as:
"Trump's decision hurts many people. We're going to compensate some drivers who were impacted. I had also decided to become Trump's advisor. If you disagree, oh well, tough. Also, I'm fighting for what's right."
Please tell me where I'm wrong, because all I see are vacuous statements with a title that makes it sound like this guy is doing something about something. It doesn't even say what he thinks is "right"! For all we know, he means banning all Muslims from entering the US.
Feel free to disagree, but please don't call it "racism." It's ridiculous.
He is a 70 year old man who just won the presidency with no prior political experience, spewing angry divisive comments against all sorts of weak minority groups. He has a massive following who cheers his divisive comments against foreigners and and against the press.
Yet in spite of this, some commentators (see Travis) think that "if only" he gets some good advice, everything will be just fine. This is a bias of smart, reasonable people: they assume others are the same. They are treating it as a reasonable person who is just misguided.
In fact, the opposite is true. Trump has shown that his values are not aligned with traditional free democracy as we've known it in America. Giving him some good advice or trying to talk reason is futile, and moreover will result in endorsement by association.
Mass rallies/sit-ins (non-violent ones) is the only real way the people of the United States of America can let their government know how they feel.
Call me a cynic, but calling your senator wont help. Trump has shown that he moves much faster than government is wont to do.
If you're just a median US citizen, you can donate some money to groups like the ACLU, vote, or call your representatives.g
Looking in from the outside, it seems like all the political process that Obama had to go through just isn't applicable?
The example I always comforted myself with w.r.t to Trump was Obama trying to get the gun laws changed - even the POTUS couldn't do it. So then he mustn't have unlimited power. So what's going on here?
I'm really curious how executive orders work in the US. Are they just the first step in a process, or do they override any democratic process? The latter seems to be what all the reporting is implying, but I don't know if that's hyperbole or true.
So I think the legal footing that Trump is trying to make is with respect to 'security'.
And it's temporary.
So those two things: that's it's for 'national security' and 'temporary' may make this within his power.
After 9/11 - Bush did a somewhat similar thing - changed the entry rules temporarily while new legislation/processes was enacted.
It's going to be a long 4 years, we need to saver our energy for the right fights.
I'll bet $1000 that after 90 days, the system will remain de-facto the same as it was before.
The 'long term' fight that is really relevant to 'us nerds' I think will be net-neutrality.
That will be permanent.
But the immigration action certainly has graver immediate and acute effects.
And, in any case, it's not a choice of fight this or fight that.
That said, I feel the same way. I'm not an Obama supporter, but I gotta wonder why he wasn't even more aggressive than he was with the orders.
In terms of substantive, direct, responses (e.g., excluding retaliating against other Presidential initiatives and appointments), major notable options include:
(1) Expressly prohibit the things called for in the order by legislation (overriding a veto, of necessary);
(2) Sue the administration claiming the order violates existing (statute or Constitutional) law;
(3) Impeach and remove the President.
Republicons constantly accused Obama of signing too many "unconstitutional" executive orders.
Executive orders can be illegal if they direct the executive branch to either do something illegal or if they direct the executive branch to fail to carry out their mandated duties. In that case the executive order may be challenged in court -- that is one of the things that is going to happen with this executive order. There will be cases flowing up the court system of people claiming this order is illegal, discriminatory, and violates the rights of legal residents.
Executive orders can also not be illegal, but may be taking advantage of flexibility that Congress regrets giving the executive branch. For instance, if the President begins selling off national parks, that may actually be within his authority, but it might inspire Congress to pass a law prohibiting him from doing so in the future.
As to how Trump is doing so many radical things so quickly, I would simply point out that he likely is not worrying about the consequences.
The President can issue executive orders very quickly if he chooses, but when most Presidents issue one creating a new, radical change (as opposed to the several dozen executive orders that get signed every time control of the White House passes between the two parties, like the Mexico City Rule), he first will spend a lot of time working with the affected departments and with his own lawyers to figure out exactly what he has the authority to do. For instance, before Obama introduced DACA, he first had to spend a lot of time figuring out exactly how much of the DREAM act he could get away with implementing purely with his executive power -- he didn't want to take the action and immediately have it reversed by the courts.
Now, if you don't worry about what you can and can't do and just do it, everything moves a lot faster. You might say Trump is governing the Facebook way: Move Fast and Break Things.
This had substance and was clear and articulate. It's exactly what Sam's Time to Take a Stand post is missing.
I have nothing against helping refugees escape atrocities in their home countries. If possible, good for them. The problem I see is that there is an inherent unfairness in this process when compared to those who try to immigrate legally, especially when using the H1B process.
A refugees obtains a green card in a matter of months if not 1 year at most. With no particularly serious/harsh vetting. Look at what this has brought, considering that all the past attacks (Boston, California, Florida) where done by people that entered US by this rout.
An H1B has to usually wait if somewhere between 8-16years, sometimes more just to get the green card. And for every step, they are scrutinized and verified in the most intimate detail.
In my opinion this is not a fair process. And, personally, I am ok with increasing the scrutiny on those that apply for refugee status.
They are not H1-B visas. They aren't holiday work visas. Having a green card means you must always file taxes even if you leave (the United States is the only country to do this. The US is also one of two countries in the world that tax citizens who don't live there).
The US doesn't have a "permanent resident without travel restrictions" type visa, so it is literally the highest visa short of citizenship you can hold.
Not sure how the numbers have evolved since then, but "one in four" is far from most. And this is for immigrants in general, not green card holders.
If you actually want to leave your bubble, read both sides on every issue. If you want to remain in your bubble, read the screaming twitter comments and media only. Choice is yours.
Even the "pro" arguers have serious reservations in this case.
That's like quoting Ayn Rand and hoping to be taken seriously.
An excerpt:
However, there are reports that the ban is being applied even to green-card holders. This is madness. The plain language of the order doesn’t apply to legal permanent residents of the U.S., and green-card holders have been through round after round of vetting and security checks. The administration should intervene, immediately, to stop misapplication. If, however, the Trump administration continues to apply the order to legal permanent residents, it should indeed be condemned.
And another:
First, the order temporarily halts refugee admissions for 120 days to improve the vetting process, then caps refugee admissions at 50,000 per year. Outrageous, right? Not so fast. Before 2016, when Obama dramatically ramped up refugee admissions, Trump’s 50,000 stands roughly in between a typical year of refugee admissions in George W. Bush’s two terms and a typical year in Obama’s two terms.
Also:
I agreed in early December to join President Trump’s economic advisory group along with Elon Musk (CEO of Tesla), Mary Barra (Chairwoman/CEO of General Motors), Indra Nooyi (Chairwoman/CEO of Pepsi), Ginni Rometty (Chairwoman/CEO of IBM), Bob Iger (Chairman/CEO of Disney), Jack Welch (former Chairman of GE) and a dozen other business leaders.
Kalanick and all those people lend their credibility to Trump and his policies.
The fight has just begun. It's just a matter of time now till they to tear apart net neutrality.
Trump might just be the wake up call the nation needed to wake up and stop being so complacent.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13474079
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/01/fcc-to-be-led-by...
I'll bet that at least 50% of Americans support the premise of a 'temporary ban on entry of people from areas of open conflict or that are governed by jihadi entities'.
Point being - there are many Americans who believe that Trump is the 'wake up call'.
I think there is a lot of danger from people living inside social bubbles making assumptions about what the 'proverbial we' should or are thinking about what is right or wrong.
By the way - I think this exec order is a political gesture.
After 90 days, everyone who was to come to the US, will end up coming.
I believe that most entrants are fairly well vetted already, and that things will get back to normal pretty quickly, with some minor adjustments so that Trump can claim his order was needed and warranted.
Saudi Arabia is a close ally of the US. That's the really horrific truth, and that's why Trump has business there and not in countries which the US is less friendly with.
This is why Trump's refusal to divest himself from his businesses is an unacceptable conflict of interest even if he insists it is fine and there are no grounds to question it.
This, of course, excuses the action not at all. But it does explain the choice of countries.
(and, of course, Obama didn't tell Trump which list to pick.)
So? Obama isn't president anymore. Trump campaigned on Obama's policies, especially his foreign policy, being ineffective. If anything this shows laziness on behalf of the Trump administration – not a good sign.
"Have you traveled to, or been present in, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya, Somalia, or Yemen..."
[1] https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/visa-waive...
I think it's rather arrogant to assume that your moral position is 'what all Americans should think or else they are immoral'.
I'm weary of the executive order myself ...
but it's not entirely irrational to temporarily ban entry of people from nations that are in open conflict and from areas wherein the only 'governance' is that of a jihadist entity.
Except Iran - all the others are serious conflict zones, wherein many participants would gladly act against the USA.
Have you looked at a political map of Libya or Yemen lately?
Scary stuff.
What is 'despicable' is the wailing and misrepresentation of the issue across the board.
If Obama were to have done this after a terrorist attack (say, a 'shooting' in Cali or whatever) - and it was done quietly and reasonably so that those with green cards etc. would be allowed in - and so that people 'on flights' would not be affected, I don't think there would be such a huge fuss.
I believe that after 90 days, most of those who would be coming to America will still be coming in.
This will de-facto boil down to a unnecessary political disruption ... but it's both fair and within the bounds of responsible reason to recognize the fact that Yemen, Syria, Somalia, Iraq etc. are very dangerous places, much more so than most places, and that some extra precautions are possibly necessary.
I don't really support it, but it's not out of bounds for people to think it's necessary.
Iran though - that's purely political (admittedly, it's probably all political). Jihadis don't come from Iran.
In those 90 days lives that could have been saved might be lost all because we have a moron in charge. Inaction is not acceptable and fighting this thing tooth and nail is the right thing to do because historical precedent says it only gets worse from here.
But 90 days will not put anyone's lives at risk.
The 'waiting process' for most refugee claimants trying to enter the US is years.
This idea you might have in your mind of 'people running from Aleppo with their luggage onto airplanes' - is just not how it works.
Refugees to the US come mostly from refugee camps, where they have been living a long time.
Also - the vast majority of Syrian refugees go elsewhere - as America (unfortunately) does not take on very many refugees, relatively speaking.
In the end, there actually might be some process/security adjustments that need to be made.
You know the 'no fly list' - that ridiculous 'name based' thing? If you have the same name as a jihadi - you can't fly! It's crazy - and also insecure. Who knows, maybe they'll fix that?
I would urge people to keep the details in mind, and to keep things in perspective.
If I thought people were going to be 'dying' over this, I'd be wailing. But they won't. It's just some temporary, crude regulation.
But, of course, these policies do not simply apply to immigrants. So many green card holders have been stranded as a result of Trump's ill-considered, bigoted executive order that large companies are having to run war rooms to handle their stranded employees: see, for instance, Microsoft's all-hands announcement to their employees, 76 of whom are impacted by the order.
You write both stridently and confidently about this issue, in several places on the thread, in some of your messages going so far as to chide other commenters for their thoughts on it. But you yourself do not seem well acquainted with it.
Do you not remember what happened and is happening in Europe with respect to refugees? Rapes and assaults by refugees? It's happened in Austria, Sweden, Germany, just to name a few off the top of my head.
Since we know for a fact that the overwhelming majority of immigrants to the US are not in fact terrorists, and that the incidence of terrorism is so low, and that the overall incidence of people coming to the United States from the countries singled out by this executive order are so high --- many orders of magnitude higher --- simple statistically literacy tells us that the ban is irrational and should be evaluated primarily on its moral and precedential terms.
But that's besides the point. As the Washington Post reports, this EO was put into effect without consultation with the DOJ or DHS, and apparently without vetting by the President's own OLC. As a result, it bands lawful permanent residents of the United States. Something like 3/4 of the foreign-born spouses of American citizens don't have citizenship but instead simply retain their green cards, and this act prevents many of them from returning to their families from overseas --- so many that big tech companies have had to run war rooms in their HR departments to figure out how to deal with stranded software developers and other employees.
No principled American of any ideology can look at this situation and believe it's acceptable.
It's heartening to see tech CEOs speak out against bigotry and disheartening to see other tech leaders remain quiet and it all makes a potent narrative and easy access to the tops of message board front pages.
But it does not. actually. matter. what tech leadership does.
We are not all sitting dutifully in our seats at Moscone waiting to see what "one more thing" from CEOs and venture capitalists is going to look like. We're also not prisoners of the management of companies whose CEOs join the administration or attend summits at Trump's garish Barad-Dûfus.
It may not be true for all workers in all industries but as someone who's been working in tech for more than 20 years I'm telling you that our management needs us more than we need them. There has never been a better market for our services or a set of employers more dependent on our goodwill and cooperation than in 2017.
Do not wait for your firm's CEO to take a stand. Organize with your coworkers. If you don't know how to get started doing that, start thinking of stabs you can take at the problem. Organizing is a problem where code actually might make a difference. Organize a pledge, or a group statement, or meetups. Or some other idea we haven't come up with yet.
A lot of engineers want to believe their work is apolitical. I understand the impulse. But your work is political whether you want it to be or not. If you don't put your market power to use for your beliefs, you're just accepting your employer's default settings, and putting it to work for theirs. Don't accept the defaults.
Organize your workplace. You have a crazy amount of influence you're not using right now. It won't always be like this; don't waste the opportunity.
Places to start:
The Indivisible guide:
https://www.indivisibleguide.com/ --- there are at least 10 software projects buried in this thing, but also remember the same ideas apply on a smaller scale both in local politics and at your work place.
https://twitter.com/techsolidarity --- show up to one of these. They're well attended and they'll interface you to your local (serious) activist community, people actually working with those at risk.
Also things I've said in the last few days that I'd rather not repeat but are relevant:
On calling your reps:
https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=13509555 --- please punch your Senators and Congresspeople's numbers into your speed dial.
On running for office:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13493366 --- please convince a friend to run for local office.
On U2F, TOTP, and SMS:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13493100 --- please disable SMS authentication on services that will let you. :)
If you're building applications to ensure that people put pressure on their local representatives or, even better, to get normal people to run for local elected office, I want to help!
But it could. Between Musk, Page, Brin, Zuckerberg and a handful of others there are some interesting options that would send a message that you'd have to be stone deaf not to hear.
This does not seem consistent. One is right to move freely and the other is right to live. Why is this so much worse than the other? This is just one more in a line of negative actions towards a particular region and its people who are being abused and killed for self serving geo-political and economic reasons.
>> We are working out a process to identify these drivers and compensate them pro bono during the next three months to help mitigate some of the financial stress and complications with supporting their families and putting food on the table. We will have more details on this in the coming days.
Subject: Standing up for what's right
Team,
Yesterday President Trump signed an executive order suspending entry of citizens from seven countries—Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen—to the United States for at least the next 90 days.
Our People Ops team has already reached out to the dozen or so employees who we know are affected: for example, those who live and work in the U.S., are legal residents but not naturalized citizens will not be able to get back into the country if they are traveling outside of the U.S. now or anytime in the next 90 days. Anyone who believes that this order could impact them should contact our immigration team immediately.
This order has far broader implications as it also affects thousands of drivers who use Uber and come from the listed countries, many of whom take long breaks to go back home to see their extended family. These drivers currently outside of the U.S. will not be able to get back into the country for 90 days. That means they will not be able to earn a living and support their families—and of course they will be separated from their loved ones during that time.
We are working out a process to identify these drivers and compensate them pro bono during the next three months to help mitigate some of the financial stress and complications with supporting their families and putting food on the table. We will have more details on this in the coming days.
While every government has their own immigration controls, allowing people from all around the world to come here and make America their home has largely been the U.S.’s policy since its founding. That means this ban will impact many innocent people—an issue that I will raise this coming Friday when I go to Washington for President Trump’s first business advisory group meeting.
Ever since Uber’s founding we’ve had to work with governments and politicians of all political persuasions across hundreds of cities and dozens of countries. Though we share common ground with many of them, we have had areas of disagreement with each of them. In some cases we’ve had to stand and fight to make progress, other times we’ve been able to effect change from within through persuasion and argument.
But whatever the city or country—from the U.S. and Mexico to China and Malaysia—we’ve taken the view that in order to serve cities you need to give their citizens a voice, a seat at the table. We partner around the world optimistically in the belief that by speaking up and engaging we can make a difference. Our experience is that not doing so shortchanges cities and the people who live in them. This is why I agreed in early December to join President Trump’s economic advisory group along with Elon Musk (CEO of Tesla), Mary Barra (Chairwoman/CEO of General Motors), Indra Nooyi (Chairwoman/CEO of Pepsi), Ginni Rometty (Chairwoman/CEO of IBM), Bob Iger (Chairman/CEO of Disney), Jack Welch (former Chairman of GE) and a dozen other business leaders.
I understand that many people internally and externally may not agree with that decision, and that’s OK. It's the magic of living in America that people are free to disagree. But whatever your view please know that I’ve always believed in principled confrontation and just change; and have never shied away (maybe to my detriment) from fighting for what’s right.
Thanks,
Travis Kalanick
For them it's fine to totally to run companies who:
* Abuse user privacy.
* Constatntly pretend they are driving positive social progress.
* Track people in a non-transparent, disrespectful way.
* Build echo chambers to keep people ill-informed and hooked on using services.
* Avoid paying tax.
* Automate people out of jobs, while not contributing to wellfare systems.
* Get rich off state owned infrastructure and give little to nothing back.
* Give money to political parties.
* Exploit cheap labor.
* Censor things for government agencies.
Where is the outrage when a child goes hungry in Africa, or a person is bombed in Syria by a US drone? The billions and billions of dollars tied up in these companies should be going back into communities, education, medical and food aid. Not on "moonshots", and ambiguous charity initiaivies which only go towards lining their pockets further.
It's companies that operate in this way which gave Trump a voice, knowingly or unknowningly. Trump didn't just magic himself into the Whitehouse, did he?
I feel sorry for anyone affected by this but having CEOs throwing bullshit into the bonfire won't help.
Everyone is responsible for the current situation, it's not just the actions of one man.
Also, name-calling ('this hypocrite') is against HN's rules (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). Please don't do that here.
so they're incapable of doing anything positive? which you may think and are welcome to do so, but it seems a teensy bit prejudicial to me.
Nonsense.
Such PR bullshit. Trying to look good in the public eye.