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Comment by cortuso | Hacker News Reader

I think it's $130K, which is 2x as much as before. It's senior level salary in IT (and I think for lawyers and MD's it's not starting salary either), in some cases/states Principal level. I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money. If you follow the line: it simply says do not use H1B more. Plus, what international student will do once he completes the college, and with quarter of million in debts (say Bachelor only) ? As is now, H1B. Will you hire college fresh grad for 130K ? Don't think so. So...who will come to the college from overseas to study and brig their passion and ideas on this land ? This is USA, this IS a country made, constructed and developed by excellence and hard work of immigrants with their hopes and dreams. Cutting that idea off, putting the country and society in the mood of "preservation", could result in dangerous outcome, as society is not ready for that. This is not Europe and will never be, the rules that work there are not applicable on this land. There is no a notion of "nation" in USA, there is no such thing. It's just a colony of immigrants moved away from their homes to build something they could not there. This is a dream land, this is an opportunity land and should remain such for everyone.

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> I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money

Are you suggesting that a $130k floor for H1B workers would undermine the practice of undercutting local workers?

It's hard to predict what will really happen. Some businesses will hire more IT personal overseas, to amortize the costs and avoid H1B application at all. Some will start really searching for a local talent with higher price (that's what this idea is meant to do I guess). But considering that IT reports constantly shortage on candidates, a big gap indeed, regardless top notch universities, makes me think it's not about problem of lack of open positions, what this new idea aims to solve, it's about a will to do that job or not. Still, I'm talking about IT sector. In other areas of life things may be way different.

anytime you hear "shortage of candidates"

you need to append "at the wage we are offering"

at 1 million per year, do you think there would still be a shortage? how about 500k?

Salaries are so bad in IT compared to development that I decided a couple months ago to start making the transition. I cant reasonably continue pursuing a career trajectory that i know will make me less money, and that is not valued by organizations.

add to this the demands for IT jobs:

certifications (costs hundreds of dollars per, need to refresh them every year or two)

experience with laundry lists of technologies (i.e cisco networking experience is apparently not valid if this employer uses juniper/pfsense/etc.)

probably the worst hours in the industry (yes devs get pagerduty, its not comparable)

compare that to:

literally no certification requirements (dont even need a high school diploma for many places)

much better hours

add to that substantially better pay, and its a real wonder why there is a 'shortage of candidates'

Possibly they might look at hiring outside of the Bay Area in such exotic locations as Boise, DesMoines, Minneapolis, Detroit or other places where they have recent college graduates who would have been motivated to study STEM fields.

There's places outside of the Bay Area? Blasphemy!

Yeah, you're right. We're all a bunch of stupid-heads in Sacramento, good for nothing but doing CRUD in COBOL++ (aka Java) :-)

> I would get one from local market for that amount of money.

Wait, why? Are you implying foreign workers are not competent and can't be exceptional? Surely it isn't that?

Otherwise, sounds like then H1B will finally work as intended, you'd be able higher exceptional people from overseas who might not be available in your area? Maybe there is a distributed systems expert from Argentina or a compiler writer from Ghana. For you to reach out to another country, they'll obviously be very qualifies and demand a decent salary.

> Plus, what international student will do once he completes the college, and with quarter of million in debts (say Bachelor only) ?

Go home or get a $130k salary if he is qualified. International student acceptance doesn't somehow guarantee or imply a continuation of stay based on employment. There is (or was) an work program where they can work in the industry as co-op / intern for a year or two. That can probably be expanded.

> Will you hire college fresh grad for 130K ? Don't think so.

Yes I would! There can be exceptional graduates. I have seen and interviewed some. Google / Facebook / Microsoft already pays that much for good graduate and more.

> This is USA, this IS a country made, constructed and developed by excellence and hard work of immigrants with their hopes and dreams.

So if they do such good work we should reward them appropriately by paying them a competitive salary. H1B should not be a way to bring in cheap labor. You can argue there should be other visas for that but H1B shouldn't be that one. And somehow you are tying it to hopes and dream. What about the hopes and dreams of develops working in US?

> There is no a notion of "nation" in USA, there is no such thing.

That is completely bogus. There is a strong notion of a nation here precisely because there is ethnic, religious or other history. If anything Americans are criticized for over-emphasizing their "Americanism".

> It's just a colony of immigrants moved away from their homes to build something they could not there. This is a dream land, this is an opportunity land and should remain such for everyone.

Well if this is a dream surely we don't want ruin that dream for those who are here and suppress their wages.

Really? From your handle, I did think you were among the more nuanced members in this forum. I guess this issue cuts too close to your heart though.

> Yes I would! There can be exceptional graduates. I have seen and interviewed some. Google / Facebook / Microsoft already pays that much for good graduate and more

Yes, and they are the exception not the rule. American tech sector is not just limited to these companies. And not just to the bay area where such salaries are common.

> So if they do such good work we should reward them appropriately by paying them a competitive salary. H1B should not be a way to bring in cheap labor.

60k is NOT CHEAP LABOR in most parts of the country! Please consider that outside of major cities, it is a pretty decent salary, especially a great starting salary.

> That is completely bogus. There is a strong notion of a nation here precisely because there is ethnic, religious or other history. If anything Americans are criticized for over-emphasizing their "Americanism".

I think the OP mean more along the line of patrimony and culture that is common in the Old World. While Americans might beat their chest and proclaim their uniqueness, they have existed as nation for just over 300 years, while the culture of Europe and much of Asia goes back thousands of years.

> Well if this is a dream surely we don't want ruin that dream for those who are here and suppress their wages.

Precisely. So don't.

>especially a great starting salary.

This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job?

meanwhile record numbers of american college graduates are finding part time work at mcdonalds and starbucks.

Sure wish some of my friends and former classmates could get 60k/yr jobs, instead of 24 hrs/wk @ 8.25 an hour. But no, its because tech companies are literally unable to fill these positions! i swear!

> This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job?

Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I went to school in one of the best CS programs in the country. Believe me: there are all kinds of outreach programs, high school outreach programs etc. to get more Americans involved in Tech. And while there are more Americans in Tech, the demand far outstrips supply.

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it.

I'm just gonna end it here, im not interested in having a discussion with you. Have a good one, hope your mood improves to the point where you aren't calling random strangers friends and family incompetent!

Usually I don't give comments like yours the dignity of a reply but it seems like even the best of people in this forum have latched on to certain incorrect ideas, so I'm gonna try one more time.

I wasn't saying your friends and family are incompetent, I was saying they are incompetent programmers, at least right now. I don't believe that everyone can or wants to do software engineering for a living, just like not everyone can or wants to be a chef, or a pilot. Its really important to understand that we can't retrain everyone to fulfill certain roles.

I wrote a whole long thing, but i think its much better to just illustrate my point.

You claim that H1B's:

1. can and should be used for entry level positions, because it is impossible to find entry level employees for programming

2. companies are completely unable to fill programming positions with US employees.

So lets investigate those claims then. Well, good place to start is probably looking at the top job titles of H1B visa holders.[1] Turns out the number 1 title by far, is 'Programmer Analyst' kinda vague, so lets try to dig in and see what that really is.

To do that, we can look for the top H1B visa employers[2] that appears to be Cognizant at 15,680 in 2015, followed by Infosys and TATA.

Well now that we know who the top employer of H1Bs is and what the top job title is, should be pretty easy to find an open position on their job board, right? Then we can look at the requirements for the 'Programmer Analyst' job and see what exactly is so specialized that no US college graduate is capable of accomplishing.

Weirdly, even though they filled over 33,000 of this job merely 2 years ago (an average of almost 100 jobs filled per day!) There is only 1 single job posting for a 'Programmer Analyst'[3]

Even weirder! the requirements for this job:

>Requirement: Basic computer knowledge, Good Communication skills and willing to work in night shifts

Well, that doesnt seem like such a demanding position to me....

Infosys had 0 job listings under that same title, TATA's careers site has no job listings at all[4]

But yeah, maybe you are right, maybe its just a coincidence that the top H1B job title has only 1 single listing across the top 3 H1B visa employers. Better keep letting them hire immigrants, since those stupid college grads 'cant code to save their lives' as you so put it.

[1]http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2014-H1B-Visa-Category.asp...

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Top_H-1B_employers_b...

[3]https://cognizant.taleo.net/careersection/1nacorp/jobdetail....

[4]http://www.tata.com/careers/index/Career

Let me repeat that I am not denying the existence of H1B fraud. I am saying that H1B can and should be used for entry level positions as well. And if there are companies abusing the system, as you point out, they are breaking the law. They should be prosecuted and stopped.

an H1B visa is specifically for someone in a "Specialty occupation" and very specifically requires experience in the field.

>(3) 12/ For purposes of section 101(a)(15)(H)(i)(b1) , the term `specialty occupation' means an occupation that requires--

>(A) theoretical and practical application of a body of specialized knowledge; and

>(B) attainment of a bachelor's or higher degree in the specific specialty (or its equivalent) as a minimum for entry into the occupation in the United States.

So, since 'Entry Level' means someone without experience in the field - the H1B visa clearly does not apply to them.

> they are incompetent programmers, at least right now

So train them. They will want to be trained and fill those roles if the salary is high.

> I don't believe that everyone can or wants to do software engineering for a living

Why can't they? Offer easy entry, and the promise of a high salary, and more people will want to do these jobs. If everyone got to do what they wanted, we'd have a surplus of firemen and veterinarians, and few accountants and garbage men.

> Why can't they? Offer easy entry, and the promise of a high salary, and more people will want to do these jobs. If everyone got to do what they wanted, we'd have a surplus of firemen and veterinarians, and few accountants and garbage men.

I'm not gonna argue too much on this since people seem to have set their minds on it. Having personally taught in American high schools as part of various outreach programs...I can say that, no, programming is not something you can "train" everyone into. Sure, there are some with aptitude for it, others without it who do want to learn and can be "trained" as you say. But you need to rethink the whole public education system from a very early stage to make it easier for students to be good learners and ultimately good programmers.

> easy entry, and the promise of a high salary

Its already there, yet....crickets.

> people seem to have set their minds on it

You're not wrong, people are just stubborn?

> programming is not something you can "train" everyone into

Would you be as happy to conclude that teaching isn't something everyone can do?

If there is some general failing with the entire educational system, "immigration" won't fix that; but this is a tractable/solvable (if difficult) problem if foreign countries are able to produce good students.

> Its already there

Is it? What counts a "high", outside SV? Why are SV wages limited to SV?

Previous posters describe CS majors working for Starbucks/McDonalds - if entry is easy, how could this be?

> Previous posters describe CS majors working for Starbucks/McDonalds - if entry is easy, how could this be?

They most certainly do not...please read the actual post. The post says their college graduate friends...not graduates in CS. Anecdotally, I haven't seen any American with a CS degree be out of job for a very long time unless they were doing something really wrong (i.e. not applying/following up with interviews).

> Would you be as happy to conclude that teaching isn't something everyone can do?

Hah, good point. I am willing to concede I might be a terrible teacher. But if we go along this path, where do you stop? You are trying to find fault in the system, in the teachers etc...essentially looking for a reason other than the most obvious conclusion: not everyone can or wants to be a programmer. Like I said, I do agree with this reasoning though: perhaps if we change the system to have better teachers, a better education system that makes CS more appealing, perhaps there would be more CS graduates.

> If there is some general failing with the entire educational system, "immigration" won't fix that; but this is a tractable/solvable (if difficult) problem if foreign countries are able to produce good students.

Immigration is not meant to fix your education system. They are not mutually exclusive: you can do both. The real reason foreign countries are able to produce good students is an interesting one; personally I get the impression that one of the major reasons is their sheer size ~3 billion people in Indian and China alone. However, one of my friends has correctly pointed out that the 3rd largest foreign student community in US universities after Indian and Chinese is: Korean.

> The post says their college graduate friends...not graduates in CS

Ah, I concede this. Maybe this isn't an issue in US as it is in the UK..

> They are not mutually exclusive: you can do both

What stops industry becoming dependent on it though? There are big advantages to H1B visa workers, there is a risk that it saps market demand. Immigration might be the path of least resistance to solving labor shortage, rather than any long-term native plans.

If technology comes to be seen as a reliable high-paid job, via being sustainably high-paid, then it's reputation will bring in more people. Immigration is a threat to this. You can argue industrial benefit to this, but how sustainable is it? What if the US lost it's attractivity, what would happen to the H1B workers then? The US needs to figure out how to produce workers - being able to skim the cream from other demographics is a benefit, but a dangerous temptation as well.

There is absolutely nothing that stops the industry from being dependent on it. It is a very real risk. But restricting immigration is certainly not the solution.

I've seen you argue for a market where demand doesn't meet supply as a desirable state for the labor market. If you do believe that, then there is really no basis for this particular debate. The principle of my argument has been that there is a problem, labor shortage which cannot be fixed by the solutions offered. If you're arguing that the labor shortage is not a problem, then that is a completely different debate.

then your argument ignores the problem that literally everyone else is talking about, which is.... very strange.

We are here talking about changes to the H1B visa program which are intended to curb abuse/fraud of the program.

and you are here to talk only about a labor shortage in one industry?

> But restricting immigration is certainly not the solution.

Why not? A restriction signals immigration as an unreliable source of labor, hence de-incentivising business to depend on it on the basis that it is a risk.

> If you're arguing that the labor shortage is not a problem

There may a problem, but labor shortage itself, is not. An excessive shortage, or an industry-crippling shortage is another thing altogether; In either case, a shortage is a necessary, but not sufficient condition of the problem.

>Ah, I concede this. Maybe this isn't an issue in US as it is in the UK..

You shouldnt, i later specified i was including CS grads - i was a CS major until i switched to MIS, so most of my college friends are from one of those two programs.

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it.

Everyone's experience varies of course. I have interviewed kids regularly from all tiers of US universities (most recently CMU). As a rule I found an international Masters student has a much better chance of failing the basic coding exam than an American-born BS graduate. Also I noticed when it comes to top students, American students overall come ahead in our interview process.

I'm not talking about CS students at US universities. I am talking about average joe college graduate who is apparently working in a Starbucks after college.

so you are making an assumption that no one who graduates with a CS degree has had to get a part time job?

are you serious?

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it.

How about a little on-the-job training? Let's be honest, the real issue isn't talent. These H1B applicants are willing to sacrifice their lives for your company whereas your average entry-level American engineer may prioritize something else.

Bringing someone over to the US on a H1B is an expensive, time consuming, mind-numbingly long affair. The only companies that I see doing that is if they have no other options at all.

expensive relative to the savings of competing on the market?

"time consuming, mind-numbingly long" doesn't matter much if it's in your business model to do this at scale. In fact, it would be an explicit competitive advantage.

> demand far outstrips supply

and this difference is what drives wage. Every time you try to reduce the gap, you drive down wages.

> can't code even if their life depended on it

No, there just isn't enough money willing to proactively train more people. The outreach programs can take an unlimited amount more funding.

If you are claiming that there is literally a shortage of people that can be trained below loss for most of the IT industry, I'd like to see more evidence.

> and this difference is what drives wage. Every time you try to reduce the gap, you drive down wages.

I'm not going to argue any more on this reasoning at all. I have explained quite clearly why this kind of thinking is incorrect and hasn't worked so far and won't work in the future either. See my peer comments.

> No, there just isn't enough money willing to proactively train more people. The outreach programs can take an unlimited amount more funding.

> If you are claiming that there is literally a shortage of people that can be trained below loss for most of the IT industry, I'd like to see more evidence.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. Of course my evidence for shortage is anecdotal. You seem to agree that the demand outstrips supply and so far Americans have not taken up CS in large enough numbers to satisfy that demand. That is my only "evidence".

> See my peer comments.

I've seen them, don't find them convincing, but will respond to those.

> my evidence for shortage is anecdotal

I'm not entirely sure which anecdotes, unless you explain your personal experience.

> You seem to agree that the demand outstrips supply

yep

> and so far Americans have not taken up CS in large enough numbers to satisfy that demand

Maybe. CS grads aren't the only source of software developers; but in any case, there is nothing wrong with demand being higher than supply, it's perfectly fine that demand be unsatisfied in the same way it's fine that supply be unsatisfied.

> And while there are more Americans in Tech, the demand far outstrips supply.

What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower the price?

> What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower the price?

Demand and supply curves don't work well when the thing in demand is skilled people. You cannot ramp up the number of skilled engineers immediately when demand shoots up.

edit: missed a "don't"

> I guess this issue cuts too close to your heart though.

Yes it does. I have seen H1B being abused enough times. I was also an international student.

> And not just to the bay area where such salaries are common.

You know what else I have seen, lots and lots of very competent, driven, and smart American students. Also interviewed them. The idea that there are none and we have to hire from overseas using a visa process is ridiculous.

> 60k is NOT CHEAP LABOR in most parts of the country!

You are right there. I agree with that part in general. But if it is not cheap and is a decent salary, there should be no problem filling it with American laborers. Computer Science degrees and education has become more popular. I don't see H1B workforce as being immensely and uniquely qualified such that it would be impossible to find anyone in a country of 300M+ people with top universities in the world. If there are such cases, I posit $130k is a low end start for their salaries.

> While Americans might beat their chest and proclaim their uniqueness, they have existed as nation for just over 300 years, while the culture of Europe and much of Asia goes back thousands of years.

To be specific I was replying to the critique that Americans don't have a standing when talking being a "nation" and using that as an argument. 300 years is certainly enough reasons to form a national identity. I think it is silly claiming "You don't have a right to change your H1B visa rules because you are not a nation". Even as an immigrant, that feels a bit over-board.

H1B visas are about filling labor shortages with exceptional talent, that is their goal. Over the years that seems they have been perverted from anything from "Let's help international students who graduate to immigrate" to "I need indentured servants to work for me for X number of years".

> You know what else I have seen, lots and lots of very competent, driven, and smart American students. Also interviewed them. The idea that there are none and we have to hire from overseas using a visa process is ridiculous.

It isn't that there are none, the problem is that there aren't enough. And instead of hypothesizing, just look at how oversubscribed the H1B visa is and how many people come in via other work visas (e.g. L1).

> You are right there. I agree with that part in general. But if it is not cheap and is a decent salary, there should be no problem filling it with American laborers. Computer Science degrees and education has become more popular. I don't see H1B workforce as being immensely and uniquely qualified such that it would be impossible to find anyone in a country of 300M+ people with top universities in the world. If there are such cases, I posit $130k is a low end start for their salaries.

Wrong. I can't believe how common this idea that "free market will fix everything!" is on HN. It is making more US students consider CS/Programming as a career, but even in a nation of 300M+ people, they aren't graduating in large enough numbers. (I can go on about the specific reasons but lets deal with the relevant facts instead of throwing numbers around. One could argue why a country with 16000M+ people, India, won not a single gold medal at the last olympics). Simply changing lowest salary to $130k wont magically fix it, just like $60k presently is not fixing it.

> To be specific I was replying to the critique that Americans don't have a standing when talking being a "nation" and using that as an argument. 300 years is certainly enough reasons to form a national identity. I think it is silly claiming "You don't have a right to change your H1B visa rules because you are not a nation". Even as an immigrant, that feels a bit over-board.

Thanks for clarifying that. I agree, the US is a nation in the canonical sense. I think the OP was pointing out more to the critical contribution of immigration to American growth and prosperity.

> H1B visas are about filling labor shortages with exceptional talent, that is their goal. Over the years that seems they have been perverted from anything from "Let's help international students who graduate to immigrate" to "I need indentured servants to work for me for X number of years".

This is another untruth, where the world "specialty" is misused. Lets go to the definition[0]:

"Generally speaking, a job is a specialty occupation if the occupation normally requires a bachelors degree in a related field of study. Jobs in fields such as engineering, math, and business, as well as many technology fields, often qualify as a specialty occupation."

So basically, most engineering jobs are "specialty" jobs and using H1B is perfectly legal and right way to do them.

I absolutely agree that there is a problem with bodyshops abusing the system. But the solutions offered so far DO NOT, WILL NOT solve those problems.

[0] https://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupati...

> the problem is that there aren't enough

By what measure?

> just look at how oversubscribed the H1B visa is

What is your interpretation of this? Who would turn down the chance of cheap labor even without a shortage?

> I can't believe how common this idea that "free market will fix everything!" is on HN

This is an exaggerated characterisation; but to some degree it is necessary to rely on market principles, given how complex the economy is.

> even in a nation of 300M+ people, they aren't graduating in large enough numbers.

Demand is high. Why is the population count relevant? People are choosing other career paths, which means there isn't enough incentive to choose IT.

> One could argue why a country with 16000M+ people, India, won not a single gold medal at the last olympics

You could, and why not? Are you implying India is incapable of producing gold-medal winning athletes?

> Simply changing lowest salary to $130k wont magically fix it

Not overnight, might it might in the long run. Why wouldn't it?

> But the solutions offered so far DO NOT, WILL NOT solve those problems

You mean the bodyshop abuse? Won't a minimum wage requirement fix it?

> What is your interpretation of this? Who would turn down the chance of cheap labor even without a shortage?

The labor is not cheap. I have already explained this.

> Demand is high. Why is the population count relevant? People are choosing other career paths, which means there isn't enough incentive to choose IT.

It isn't. I bring it up because the parent brought it up. I think we are in agreement here.

> You could, and why not? Are you implying India is incapable of producing gold-medal winning athletes?

Most certainly not.

> Not overnight, might it might in the long run. Why wouldn't it?

I have already explained this. Please don't ask the same question for me to give the same answer. The only reason I am replying is because you seem to be genuinely interested in an open-minded discussion about this issue.

> You mean the bodyshop abuse? Won't a minimum wage requirement fix it?

No, I don't mean the bodyshop abuse. The problem: not enough Americans to fill vacancies in tech sector. That is the problem that this solution won't fix.

> The labor is not cheap. I have already explained this.

Is this:

>> 60k is NOT CHEAP LABOR in most parts of the country!

You "explanation"? Because you didn't really respond to:

>> But if it is not cheap and is a decent salary, there should be no problem filling it with American laborers.

>> If there are such cases, I posit $130k is a low end start for their salaries.

Or to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13553710

> I have already explained this.

You haven't replied to all responses to those explanations (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13552944 ), and I haven't accepted some of your arguments yet. Can you point out which posts of your own you are referring to?

> The only reason I am replying is..

If you are going to take this arrogant tone, then take your own posts less authoritatively. It's not "open-minded" to lace your responses with such haughty barbs.

> I did think you were among the more nuanced members in this forum

What does this mean?

it means "i wouldve guessed (based on your username) you were smarter than i know believe you to be"

Its an insult, not really hackernews quality, as almost all of this users comments in this thread have been an attack on someone. I dont know if this person had a bad day, or if they are always so unbearable and condescending.