Green tea compound may halt molecular cause of often-fatal condition | Hacker News Reader

Green tea compound may halt molecular cause of often-fatal condition

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85 pointsupen72 comments

I always find it funny how they test Green, Black, White or Oolong Teas separately. All teas (Not herbal infusions) are all from the same plant, Camellia sinensis. The only difference is when they are picked and for black tea they are oxidized.

The only thing chemistry I have found is caffeine levels. The old belief was the highest Black and the lowest was White. This has proven to be untrue.

Pill form would equal KIDNEY STONES if they contained the leaf. Tea leafs are one of the highest in oxalates (Causes most kidney stones) but tea is low/moderate in oxalates.

I drink a fairly high amount of black tea (about 1.5L/day) and I had read about this before a bit, but couldn't find any clear answers - what's the risk of developing kidney stones and will I have fair warning signs before permanent damage?

I drink about 1L/day I use to get kidney stones all the time. Told to stop drinking tea and dark sodas. After researching it for 10 minutes my Urologist didn't know what he was talking about.

Contents of Oxalate:

black tea 15 grams for 1 liter equals 15 * 5.11 = 76.65 milligrams of soluble oxalates

Spinach has 645 milligrams of soluble oxalates per serving size!

Cola sodas has 0 as in ZERO soluble oxalates per serving size.

My doctor told me that was all new to him. I stopped going to him as a doctor. I ate spinach everyday. I stopped eat spinach I stopped having kidney stones.

Exactly what kind of tea do you drink? Is it iced tea, a brand?

You might be drinking too much. See http://www.livescience.com/50347-iced-tea-kidney-failure.htm.... That person was drinking about 2.5 times your intake but it might wise to throttle back a bit. You might not reach kidney failure but might reach levels that impair function or which leave you vulnerable to toxic oxalate buildup if you eat other oxalate rich foods.

I finally found a good study on this,

http://apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server/apjcn/11/4/298.pdf

"The results from this experiment show that while a regulartea drinker would be consuming oxalate every day, the levelsare modest when compared to the amounts of oxalate thatcan be found in other common foods. It would be verydifficult to consume an excessive amount of soluble oxalatefrom the regular consumption of black tea without milk. Theconsumption of black tea with milk would mean that smallamounts of oxalate would be absorbed on a daily basis andwould place black tea in the low risk group of foods, asdefined by Noonan and Savage".

Seems like damage is minimal and only some people will form calcium stones to begin with. For me this means I'm not going to make any concern out of it unless I hit an issue.

I did find one oft-repeated anecdotal case of a guy who consumed ~4L+ of iced tea per day and had more major issues, but I didn't see any other examples of this.

Black tea is delicious and other teas are gross - I assume some chemistry, however small, must be responsible for that difference. I think green tea always pops up in health studies because it's associated with cultures that are perceived to be healthier.

Japan is known for consuming almost solely green teas and therefore their research will be in green teas only. Intrestingly they grow most of their teas under shade which makes the tea sweeter.

Black tea gets a bad rap but black tea is just as healthy as green or white.

Also there are some great green and white teas, but their is such a difference in taste in the same types. Try a Jasmine Silver Needle for White and Darjeeling which is technically a Oolong (Its my favorite tea by far). Heck Indian tea is very different from teas from China. (I prefer Indian teas)

Green tea is more bitter because you have to use 165 degree water and not boiling water. 212 degree water makes green (and white) taste VERY bitter. Use boiled water on black since they don't shed the oil out of the tea leaf. Tea is so much more complicated then coffee.

Any insight into whether matcha drinking causes a higher risk of kidney stones? (Drinking matcha is consumption of powdered tea leaves, unlike nearly all other teas where the goal is to steep and then remove the leaves.)

Your oxalate reasoning suggests matcha would be worthy of study with respect to kidney stones but I've never that. I'm genuinely curious because research suggests consuming leaf solids can be very health-supporting in other ways. e.g. including kidney support to slow progression of diabetes, reducing blood lipid & glucose levels, etc.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19735169

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26448271

Well oxalate levels between Black and Green tea is pretty huge it appears.

> black tea in tea bags and loose tea leaves were 4.68 and 5.11 milligrams per gram of tea. Green teas and oolong tea had lower oxalate amounts, ranging from .23 to 1.15 milligrams per gram of tea. http://blogs.webmd.com/healthy-recipe-doctor/2008/06/tea-and...

White, oolong, puerh (both sheng and shu) are oxidized too I think, in different ways. Also purple tea is a bit different because of a genetic mutation.

They may technically be the same species, but the cultivars/breeds can be very different. (Think about, say, dogs.) If you've spent much time drinking various kinds of tea, you know they can taste very different, and it's not just due to the processing: I've tried greens from Korea and India, black teas from China, oolongs from India and Thailand etc and different cultivars processed the same way do not taste the same way - they do not taste like their counterparts from Japan, India, and China respectively, even when they are advertising themselves as clones and attempting to taste as much alike as possible. Since flavor is due to differing levels of organic chemicals, if there are tastable differences, why not differences in levels of other chemicals too...

There are many cultivars but tea is even more sensitive in taste then say wine and grapes. Tea is very susceptible to climate and even harvest times. Darjeeling tea is my favorite but there are three different flushes. I prefer the less expensive second flush, but each one is taken from the same tea leaves and they all taste different. Darjeeling is of the same cultiver as all Chinese teas. Since Darjeeling is grown at such a high altitude and climate you can't get the same flavor in Chine though if someone figured that out they would be a multi-millionaire. Think the farmed caviar that is now hitting the market.

PS I love tea and the crazy things that happens with it, even in the same cultivars.

You're only further emphasizing why one would have to be crazy to not test tea varieties separately...

But I was talking about the same tea plant and the same variety.

Indeed. If you can get such differences in taste from the same variety and same exact tea plant, then the differences between different plants of different varieties in different countries harvested at different times to be processed different ways will be even greater, will they not? Making it even more foolish to not try to test different kinds of teas, and your criticism deeply misguided.

Citation for caffeine levels and the other numerous claims you're making up and down this thread?

Keep in mind that you'd need to drink about 1 gallon of green tea every day (which would cause nausea and pain) to have an increase in the EGCG levels in your blood of less than 60%.

http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/9/9/3312.long

So it seems unlikely that drinking green tea would be a viable treatment.

This is sort of the reason we invented pills.

Exactly! But sadly, a lot of people will read the headlines as "if I drink green tea, I'm preventing bone-marrow diseases".

Pills packaging powdered remains of fruits sell very well, I'm sure people will be fine.

I wouldn't be so sure: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/fda-confirms-toxicit...

"After investigating reports that more than 400 babies were sickened and 10 died in connection with homeopathic teething products, the Food and Drug Administration confirmed Friday that it had indeed found elevated levels of the toxic substance, belladonna, in the products."

KIDNEY STONES if they contain the tea leaf. Now green and white teas have catechins which may help break down kidney stones but those are break down when exposed to oxygen or sunlight.

How are these compounds prevented from sunlight induced breakdown if they occur in the leaf of a plant?

They're part of a living system that actively repairs, (re)generates the compounds. Same type of thing that prevents you from decomposing while you're still alive.

And there are at least 60 cases of liver damage, including many fatalities, caused by Green Tea extract:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/green-tea-extract-diet-cbc-mar...

What about Tumeric extract and also intravenous vitamin-C?

Actually your statement is false. I drank a gallon of green tea for years before switching to a gallon of white tea every day. I've never been nauseated or had pain from that. Ever. I pee every 20 minutes but it's never made me sick.

Is this serious? If so, any particular reason why you did?

I started this well over a decade ago, perhaps 20 years? The average person does not get NEARLY enough water per day. That was one reason, but the main reason was I knew about the anti-cancer affects of green tea as well as other healthy effects. And over the years I had nurses and medical doctors in my family tell me white tea was healthier for you that green tea. Lower caffeine, more of the same compounds and benefits green tea had. So I switched over to white tea. I am still drinking a gallon each day. Will I still get cancer? Maybe. But it won't be from a lack of doing everything I can to prevent it.

> But it won't be from a lack of doing everything I can to prevent it.

You eat a large quantity of red meat and processed red meat.

That increases your risk of cancer.

Wat? How do you know OP's protein preferences?

[EDIT:] ...wow. Just, wow. Do you use a spreadsheet to track the dietary preferences of various HN commentators, or do you have a frighteningly effective memory?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11947340#11948143

> Ive been an atkins follower for... 20 years. I eat mostly meat.

Actually I don't I don't know why you assume I do. I never have processed anything. I cook my own food. And of the red meat I do have in my diet it's ~80% grass fed bison which is very high in CLA and the other ~20% is wild. Wild boar, elk, venison, dove, quail, pheasant, and turkey.

As well as 3000mg of wild sockeye salmon oil daily.

You said you ate mostly bacon. Bacon is a processed red meat.

If you buy it store bought. If you make it you control what's in it.

> The average person does not get NEARLY enough water per day.

this is false. The old "8 glasses of water a day" advice has no scientific backing. And, while there is evidence that mild dehydration can have bad health effects, this can be completely avoided by simply drinking when you feel thirsty. There is absolutely no need to make yourself consume enough water, your body will tell you when you need to drink.

Most people aren't in tune with their body, hence a recommendation with a number, you know, as a guideline

Not OP, but I drink about 2 gallons of green tea per day because I like it. (About one box of this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0083COLAM which is supposed to make 6 pitchers.)

You might want to read up on this...

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/04/the-man-w...

I'm familiar with that story. However, I agree with Helen Keller that life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all. (It's not clear that she was talking about green tea, but the point is good.)

You're consuming ~$20 per day in Green Tea? ~$620/month on green tea?

That's a 4-pack, so it's more like $5/day.

The symptoms are listed in the study.

Also, your point is anecdotal and irrelevant, people have different sensibilities to different compounds. Also, the effects are largely caused by the caffeine in the tea, so you're probably addicted and adapted to caffeine.

Obviously those symptoms in this "study" do not apply to everyone.

It's as anecdotal and irrelevant as you claiming anyone drinking a gallon of green tea gets sick. Which is a falsehood.

White tea has an incredibly low amount of caffeine. So I am not sure why you are claiming I am addicted to caffeine. If I run out of tea and take 4 or 5 days to order more I don't get headaches or have side effects. So again I don't know what you are basing your statements on.

I think the more important information is how it affects most people, not specifically how it affects you. For all we know, you have some sort of genetic mutation that allows you to drink that much green tea without any side effects. Maybe you're part of (e.g.) 10% of the population with said mutation. If so, then your situation is the one that doesn't apply to everyone.

It depends on the amount of tea you're using per L of water. One could steep 1 g of tea in 4 L of water, which is essentially drinking water.

"1 gallon of tea" provides very little information on the amount of tea used.

White tea has around 20mg of caffeine per cup, compared to 30mg for green tea and 95mg/cup for coffee.

So your "1 gallon/day" of white tea gets you about the same caffeine content as 1L of black coffee per day, with a total intake of ~320mg of caffeine per day. About 100mg per day of caffeine can cause addiction.

So the odds are that you're a caffeine addict. On the other hand, you might be immune to caffeine or have low sensitivity.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/research/bpru/doc...

Yeah, I drink 1.5L of black tea a day. Around 300mg of caffeine.

Can confirm, I am definitely a caffeine addict. In fact, I switched to tea mostly because I was consuming a ridiculous amount of unneeded calories in sugar and cream in energy drinks and coffee when I mostly just wanted tasty caffeine.

Many of us are caffeine addicts.

with or without milk/sugar?

Without. I think sweet tea is unnatural :) And I don't "get" milk in tea. Odd.

You reminded me of this article...

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/04/the-man-w...

4 liters of tea per day? That's a 250ml cup every hour over a 16 hour day! I like tea but that seems excessive especially if you have to urinate every 20 minutes. Half of every hour of every day you're either drinking or urinating.

I've grown to have a normal rate of urination, every hour or two, over the 5ish years I've been drinking green tea in large quantities.

How much does that cost per month?

Not the OP, but as a starting point:

A 100-pack of organic white tea is $7.99 at my local whole foods, and a bit cheaper online - looks like ~$6.50 on amazon. (Green tea is about the same price).

  ~$0.065 per teabag
  1 cup is a serving (1 teabag)
  16 cups in a gallon
  ~$1.04/day, ~$31.20/month

There are probably cheaper brands and suppliers to be found.

Edit: misplaced decimal

>Keep in mind that you'd need to drink about 1 gallon of green tea every day (which would cause nausea and pain)

I might not drink a gallon but I get close. If you find you get nauseous after a couple of cups of tea (green tea especially) your probably brewing the tea too hot or for too long. Overdoing ether will let tasty bitter tasting ND nauseating componds to leach. 170F deg is about perfect for most green teas. Higher for blacks.

The nausea and pain is mostly due to the caffeine intake. After you're addicted, that largely goes away.

So about 7-8 of these per day:

https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-Green-Extract-400mg/dp/B001...

For the nootropic and supplement crowd adding something like this would be trivial to swallow and manufacturers will probably start selling more potent pills if the market demands it.

Its also interesting to know the the 'miracle' supplement theanine is also a green tea derivative. Every stack I've seen on nootropic forums seem to contain it, especially as it cancels out the overly stimulating effects of caffeine, but leaves the focus effects in. I wonder what more secrets green tea leaves hold and if they're more than partly responsible for Japan's impressive longevity.

I too drink 1-2 gallons of green tea per day. I drink looseleaf exclusively, with a supplier who's checked on fluoride levels for me, and find I stay hydrated and happy much better on this specific (tamaryokucha) green tea than on any other caffeine source.

I find your mention of fluoride interesting...

I have always wondered (just because I am curious) how one could actually avoid intake of any fluoride given the many types of fluids humans can drink; are all beer crafters using fluoridated waters? Wine makers? Soda? Every bottled water? Juices?

What drinks can be verifiably lacking fluoridation?

A used Milli-Q system (makes ultra-pure deionized water for scientific research) is only a few hundred bucks on ebay.

Mind you, drinking water deionized to such levels will actually accelerate teeth decay, and has been shown to give organ damage and other unpleasant side effects in mice who were given it for long term consumption.

Though I suppose you could go through the hassle of deionizing the water, and then adding back just the ions you trust (Ca, Na, Mg, Cl, etc.).

For a more pragmatic approach, you could just limit yourself to bottled water, beer and wine imported from Europe; >99% of all European drinking water is non-fluoridated.

It depends, many water sources are naturally flurodated to levels equal to treated systems. At least 3 cities I know of in the USA regularly add no additional fluoride to meet standard levels.

Consider co-supplementation with quercetin, which increases the bioavailability of green tea catechins.

https://examine.com/supplements/green-tea-catechins/?PageSpe...

In my opinion tea is the most underrated hacker drink, at least in Germany. In all companies everybody drinks coffee all day long. If u drink tea, you are an alien. Especially if u prefer loose leaf tea over the the dust in bags from the supermarket, you are a little weird. I hoped the big Club Mate hype could bring some people into the tea camp, but omg even the most of the few people who drink tea doesn't know why chamomile tea isn't actually a tea...

Never heard of the "club mate hype" before. Would that be yerba mate drinks?

Edit: Just dug a bit more. Yes it is, carbonated and mixed with some sugar. Yuck. I prefer my yerba mate the traditional way, thank you very much. Also, what's with everybody's obsession with caffeine and productivity? Why not just inject adrenaline right into your heart? Come on, people should use some "more common sense" and not overuse these substances.

can we update the title to reflect what the condition actually is?

Green tea compound may halt molecular cause of often-fatal multiple myeloma

No, it affects protein folding in light chain amyloidosis, which often accompanies MM, but is a disease in itself.

“The ECGC pulled the light chain into a different type of aggregate that wasn’t toxic and didn’t form fibril structures,” as happens to organs affected by amyloidosis.

AL (light chain) amyloidosis is a protein folding disease that causes an accumulation of amyloid protein in the organs, and is usually fatal. This green tea compound, EGCG, seems to transform light chain amyloid, "preventing the misshapen form from replicating and accumulating dangerously". More information on the disease here: http://www.amyloidosis.org/facts/al/

Film actor Michael York has become a spokesman of sorts for people with the disease. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/oct/20/michael...

http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/episodes/2015-2016/green-tea

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