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Comment by astrobase_go | Hacker News Reader

There really should be a legend on here:

1) There are boxes of two different colors here, light green versus yellow. I read the Iliad in high school, so I forget if there are actual differences that the creator was attempting to codify. I shouldn't have to look it up, good information design should make that apparent to the unfamiliar viewer.

2) I assume the crosses are meant to signify that the character died at some point? If that's true, perhaps another signifier would be more appropriate, since that seems to the uninitiated to be associated with the death of a Christian person. Since this was written sometime beyond 1,000 B.C.E., I'm going to say that those people weren't Christians.

Would love for someone with the time/ability to edit that map to make these updates.

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1) The green ones are the Greeks, yellow ones are the Trojans. I think there should be a legend for this.

2) Needs legend. Actually, the cross might typographically be the dagger character, which usually looks like a cross. But in this case it looks a lot like a cross. I think it is used quite universally as the sign of death in books about history, and I haven't seen any other sign used instead.

I completely agree that many Wikipedia maps and graphs have this problem. The symbols and colors are not explained in the figure itself. I guess it's because they want to be able to translate them easily.

The dagger or obelisk symbol often indicates death, and can look like a cross in certain fonts. This symbol was actually initially developed by the ancient Greeks to mark up Homer's manuscripts, so its use here couldn't be more appropriate.

Yes, the crosses mark the characters that died in the war. The mark is in common usage for death, regardless of religious affiliation - we don't spell the names of the characters in the original ancient Greek either.

> The mark is in common usage for death, regardless of religious affiliation

If where you live is mostly Christian it may seem that way, but that symbol is only used by Christianity (and is it even used by Eastern Orthodox?). Go to Muslim, Hindu, Confucian, Jewish, etc. cemeteries and look around.

It is typical in written English and this an English-annotated map not a Hindu cemetery. I'm not suggesting the dagger is some universal symbol for 'dead', but in context, it's used appropriately. If you translated the map, perhaps some other symbol would be better.

Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_(typography)#Modern_usa...

Edit: Oh, and yes, it was used as such in Orthodox, pre-revolutionary Russia.

> It is typical in written English

Let's not blow this out of proportion, but to address this narrow point:

Again, it may seem that way if you read a lot written by Christians, but I believe it's the religion of the author not the language that determines the usage.

Consider the nation with the largest English-speaking population in the world, India; do they use crucifixes? English also is widespread in Israel and other countries that aren't predominantly Christian. My guess is that books written by Israelis don't use them either. I agree that the usage is widespread in predominantly Christian countries.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm talking about using the symbol to indicated death.

I'll stop here but I honestly don't understand how the actual, real, referenced fact that this is an existing typographical convention is 'blowing things out of proportion'. It either is or isn't and in this case, it is.

A lot of language conventions, including typographical ones have implicit and explicit cultural biases. That's just how language works. You seem to be arguing this should not be a typographical convention because you're unfamiliar with it and some other general principles. Sure, maybe, but that's also very much not how language works. You're welcome to advocate for change but this does not instantly turn this into not-an-English-typographical-convention.

> I honestly don't understand how the actual, real, referenced fact that this is an existing typographical convention is 'blowing things out of proportion'.

I only meant, let's not make too big a deal over this tiny issue.

I understand your claims, but do you have evidence that in non-Christian, English-speaking cultures, the cross[0] is used to indicate death? Wikipedia isn't the best source, and I'd expect it to represent the views of people in mostly Christian societies. I admit I'm not doing the research myself, so I'm not complaining if you don't.

EDIT: Also, from the Wikipedia page you cited: While daggers are freely used in English-language texts,[citation needed] they are often avoided in other languages because of their similarity to the Christian cross.[citation needed] Certainly that could apply to non-Christian English-speaking societies. An uncited Wikipedia statement is even less reliable than a cited one, but so far nobody has pulled in any solid evidence.

[0] I don't agree that the icon on the map is a typographical dagger. Of course, any cross could be a dagger and vice versa, but otherwise nothing about it indicates a dagger. Also, as the Wikipedia page you cited says, "The dagger should not be confused with the Unicode characters "Latin cross" (, U+271D),"

" but do you have evidence that in non-Christian, English-speaking cultures"

Who cares? This is an existing convention in written English. It doesn't matter whether you or I like it. Your original argument was that it shouldn't have been used on this map because the dead weren't Christians. That's not how typographical conventions work. Now you want me to prove to you something that really exists exists. It does. Sorry you find it irksome and didn't know it before or that sometimes dagger and cross get mixed up. None of this changes the fact this is an existing typographical convention. Let's call it a day.†

> Your original argument was that it shouldn't have been used on this map because the dead weren't Christians.

It was not and is not. Regarding the rest of your message, it's sad that I can't discuss typography with you without enduring insults.

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