Hacker News Reader

Comment by dotBen | Hacker News Reader

"I need you to understand my outlook on this which is that my life might depend on me keeping my mouth shut right now."

I wouldn't say that, it implies guilt (by the letter of the law and justice an innocent person's life wouldn't depend on them keeping their mouth shut).

Further more, the specific phrase "my life might depend on me keeping my mouth shut" could be interpreted by a cop as being more than what you mean - eg maybe you are harboring a criminal who has threatened to kill you.

As geeks, I think we have a tendency to 'front load' a lot of this as we try to explain our logic. A short "No comment" is best and the more you say, even in trying to justify your logic, opens up opportunity for a cop to use something against you.

View on HN

I'm sorry but that logic will get you thrown in jail for the exact points you outline. Police are people and they don't like a jerk and they don't like someone who seems to think he's smarter than they are. You say just "No Comment" and they aren't going to like you and that is going to make them go after you harder.

What the statement I put above conveys is a few things.

1. That I respect the cops and their job and that I know they aren't after me personally(and hence won't try to parse every sentence I say and take it out of context like you did)

2. That I've been told by people that I believe to be knowledgeable that even innocent people can be convicted of a crime they didn't commit by saying something stupid and that's the reason I have a choice in not talking to them (and hence putting the "stupid" burden on my by implying "I don't think I'm smart enough to be in a discussion with you")

3. I explicitly stated "I'm not guilty" letting the cops know I'm not trying to be smug with them and that I do want them to know I'm not guilty.

Bottom Line: By saying "No Comment" you're trying to prove you're smarter than the cops while my statement lets them think they're smarter than me while still giving them nothing they can use against me

The more you say the more that can be twisted against you. "I'm not guilty." -> "Not guilty of what? We haven't accused you of anything. Why are you acting like you've been accused? What exactly are you not guilty of?" And so on.

The response with the smallest attack surface is "No comment."

First, the only reason you don't talk to cops is because you don't want to give them something they can use against you in court. So unless there's something in that statement that they can use in court (which there isn't) it doesn't matter.

Second, once you've asked for a lawyer interrogation MUST STOP by law. So there will be no follow up questions.

Finally, you're making the same erroneous assumption as dotBen above in that you're assuming the relationship with the Cops has to be adversarial and then treating it as such (which is exactly what makes someone look guilty).

What I'm saying is your best bet is to empathize with the Cops and realize that they don't like grilling people. So your goal should be to keep things amicable and give them "an out" so they don't have to interrogate you.

> So your goal should be to keep things amicable and give them "an out" so they don't have to interrogate you.

That's key, and it is basic psychology.

Make sure the police officer has no reason to suspect you are hiding something and you'll get off without a problem, he/she hates wasting their time as much as you do.

Give a reason for suspicion or antagonize them and you're going to be a lot further in your day before you are let off.

A police officer is someone that has a relatively good eye for probability, if you are 'probably ok' (in other words, you're on the same side of the law) then there is no reason to detain you any longer and you can go. If you give them the feeling you are on opposite sides of that line (antagonistic behaviour for instance) then you may just have lost a couple of hours.

>Finally, you're making the same erroneous assumption as dotBen above in that you're assuming the relationship with the Cops has to be adversarial and then treating it as such (which is exactly what makes someone look guilty).

As someone in this thread indicated, about a forth or so of cases exonerated by DNA evidence have "confessed". That fact enough, should make your interaction adversarial. You can be sure a lot of those people end up going to the station just "to talk" as "witnesses".

> The only reason you don't talk to cops is because you don't want to give them something they can use against you in court.

That is wrong. You don't know what you are saying can or cannot be used against you. The cops can lie to you. You don't know at which point a switch in their head decides to turn you from a witness into a suspect. They won't signal you with a wink ...

So first off your original statement does imply guilt - as per my original comment and I would suggest you re-examine that.

"I know they aren't after me (and hence won't try to parse every sentence I say and take it out of context like you did)"

yeah good luck with that one. The police will take what you have to say and bend it against you to see where it goes. It's called probing and is a legitimate investigative technique. You prefacing the situation with your pre-amble isn't going to stop that.

"I explicitly stated "I'm not guilty" letting the cops know I'm not trying to be smug with them and that I do want them to know I'm not guilty."

They haven't said you are guilty of anything, if they are just investigating. It's that kind of behavior - denying guilt before any has been laden upon the suspect - that police zero in on.

Seriously, I think you should re-consider your position and read some other people's views, especially the ACLU. You're unintentionally pushing a load of buttons that the police will pick up on with your preamble that I don't even think you realize.

Again once you've asked for your lawyer interrogation must stop. So there will be no probing.

Second if you're being interrogated than you're suspected of something. To suggest otherwise is again treating the cops like their some kind of idiots. Be an adult and treat the cops like adults and try to create an adult understanding between you. Don't act like a petulant child and repeat a mantra over and over again.

Again once you've asked for your lawyer interrogation must stop. So there will be no probing.

But they might take you down to the police station and wait for your lawyer to show up. Do you see that as a successful outcome?

Second if you're being interrogated than you're suspected of something.

You're just plain wrong about that. They may think you're a witness or have information that they need.

There's a difference between being a witness and being interrogated. I'd dare say you have a civic duty to answer questions that aren't about you if a Cop asks them. Cops wouldn't be able to catch actual criminals if citizens don't talk to them at all.

But once they start asking about you that's when you lawyer up

If you actually have information and there's not even the slightest possibility that it could turn bad for you, then sure, be a good citizen.

But if you don't have any information, or if there's even the most remote possibility at all that you could somehow be implicated by the information you have (or by the fact that you have the information in the first place), then plainly, simply, and politely: "I have nothing to say" and "May I go now?".

I'd dare say you have a civic duty to answer questions that aren't about you if a Cop asks them.

I think this is the key difference of perspective between you and the people you're debating. But what's interesting is that you're arguing the tactical disadvantages of something you believe people have a civic duty not to do. Are you sure one opinion isn't influencing the other?

Can American police actually take you to the police station against your will if you're not under arrest? They can ask, of course, but no matter how forcefully they ask they're still just asking.

No, but why would you say "not without my lawyer" if you weren't actually willing to get a lawyer and talk? If you make the offer with the intent to rescind it if they take you up on it, why make the offer in the first place?

I wouldn't, personally. Even if you get a lawyer, the lawyer says not to talk. I already know that for free.

How many times have you actually interacted with the police? Between being pulled over several times, living in an apartment that was previously occupied by a guy with warrants, being assaulted with a golf club, and various other stupid minor run-ins, I've had exactly one experience where the cop wasn't a complete dick and possibly would have let me get halfway through that wall of text you want to preface your lack of interaction with.

It's just naive to expect that you can, as a rule, calmly explain why you don't want to talk with them.

Saying "I have nothing to say" works. Saying "May I go now?" works. Trying to justify yourself, using phrases like "I can't" or "I don't want to", implying that you might have something to say if a lawyer were around, anything more than conveying you have nothing to say and want permission to leave, is just asking for a headache.

First my Aunt is a CHP officer (CHP is California Highway Patrol for those who don't know)

Second I worked in a computer store where police would come in all the time and hang out for hours. I've taken hundreds of smoke breaks with them (I don't smoke but I'd stand out there with them and talk).

Third I work at a boys home for troubled children. The cops come by about twice a week for various infractions (usually involving drugs) and since I know many from my previous job I talk to them all the time even now.

Having all that experience the one thing I know,for a fact, is that Cops are people too and they hate when other people treat them badly (which is what repeating "no comment" or asking "can I go now" is considered). If your job was to get information from someone else wouldn't you be upset if they just said "no comment" and wouldn't tell you why they were saying it or even if they had the information you were looking for? The cops feel the same way and explaining exactly why you can't talk to them and giving them your word that you don't have the info they're looking for will help your relationship with them.

Those sound like social or job-related interactions, which are completely and obviously different from the kind of interactions the article and I are referring to. Have you had any on-topic interactions with police?

If your job was to get information from someone else wouldn't you be upset if they just said "no comment" and wouldn't tell you why they were saying it or even if they had the information you were looking for?

I might be miffed, but if I had the unique ability to ruin their lives with arrest and prosecution, I'd understand a little mistrust and defensiveness.

A cop might act like refusing to say anything, refusing searches, and asking if you can go is "treating them badly", but that's gamesmanship. That's their job. If you want to appeal to their human side, just be polite about it.

The fact is, cops already know all the legitimate reasons you have for not talking to them, so there's no real misunderstanding to resolve.

I once thought my car was stolen, because I had been completely out of it with fever, and we both forgot my boyfriend was the last one to park it... and he parked it far away.

The police came. We found my car. They smiled but didn't make fun of me.

Then they invited us to a LAN party.

Maryland police are pretty nice, as long as you're white.

You can't get "thrown in jail" (in America) without probable cause and usually a warrant, and if they already have probable cause or a warrant on you, you're not talking yourself out of being thrown in jail. If they have nothing on you and you refuse to talk to them, they're not going to "go after you" because you're not a promising lead. It's talking to them that makes you a promising lead.

Cops by and large already know all this stuff. They might act all pissy when you refuse to talk to them, but that's gamesmanship. They understand. If you're polite and confident about it, they'll get it--even without you having to memorize a three paragraph speech they're going to interrupt you in the middle of anyway.

>You can't get "thrown in jail" (in America) without probable cause and usually a warrant

Enjoy your Patriot Act. The cops certainly do, as it allows them to do exactly that.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com