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Comment by old-gregg | Hacker News Reader

> you just have to spend so much time on useless shit that you don't deal with in other advanced economies

Just curious, can you provide some examples? (outside of healthcare, which is the well-known hell). Thanks!

For an example of the top of my head, take tax returns. In the UK the vast majority of people don't need to file one—your employer deducts the right amount each month from your salary and off you go. Moving to America I found I had to spend at least half a dozen hours trying to figure out what I had to do, eventually giving up and paying for a service to do it for me and am still unsure I filed correctly.

For another example, take getting a driver's license. In the UK you fill in a form online, they extract any other relevant details from your passport records and put in your credit card details and they send you a license within the week. It's a 15 minute process. In America I got to finding out I had to go to the DMV (and that I should go to the DMV in another city because it's somehow superior) and promptly gave up.

I know you said aside from healthcare, but even if you had the hypothetical best insurance available, with no co-pay or deductible, just keeping track of all of the arcane and opaque numbers, policies and restrictions is a huge administrative burden.

Now to be clear, I understand why some of these systems are the way they are and, in some cases, can see the necessity, but the fact remains that in almost any other developed nation there simply wouldn't be an equivalent administrative burden to just existing.

Talk to an accountant with experience in dealing with tax both inside and outside the US, and watch them wither before your eyes when they describe the cacophony of the US taxation system. You gotta love a taxation system where everything changes depending on where something is sold versus where something is received versus where head office is, varying right down to the county level...

Most of the reason why Americans get so frothy about tax is because they've made it ridiculously complex to comply with.

Really. In the Czech Republic the tax form for physical persons is a single A3 sheet folded in half, and one quarter of it is notes.

You've accidentally hit on a problem with much of the complexity of laws in the US: states have autonomy on a lot of things. Healthcare is a big one. It's regulated by the states. Insurance companies incorporate by state. Each state has it's own regulations. Some states are gun friendly, some are not. Although our federal government yields a lot of power, constitutionally, it doesn't have as much as its seems.

It's an interesting model. It was more like the EU in it's inception than today in that each state was it's own country under a thin umbrella of federal government. The outcome of the US Civil War changed that significantly, but not enough to have a coherent, omnipotent federal system. (The EU doesn't have one either; each EU country controls most of their own sovereignty). One main difference is US states can't secede from the US while EU countries can.

Another issue is free borders between states. If state A enacts universal healthcare, how does it prevent the sick inhabitants of neighboring states B,C,D,E from emmigrating and bankrupting the state? This model poses all sorts of problems. Even colleges have to deal with this. If you live in the same state as the college for a year, you are considered a permanent resident and get a significant tuition deduction (like 75% less). There are hundreds of examples of where autonomous states with free borders cause administration headaches.

Imagine if the EU decided to have a governing body that took taxes and distributed services, like healthcare, military, infrastructure, etc. It would have to cut out parts of the tax code for Greece and add parts for France, etc. Not only that, but by industry. Then tack on special interest lobbying. It would be a mess. Not only that, what if 1/4 of the countries didn't have universal healthcare?

One example is the very complex set of rules for specific professions in the US. There's no one-size fits all business licence as there is in some other countries. If you want to, for example, start a moving business you buy a truck, and then you have to register as a mover in CA, and if your client wants to move their stuff to WA you have to register as a mover in Oregon and Washington as well. You may then have to register into a special commercial fee system for using the highways commercially. This kind of thing really shocks the redneck crowd who thinks that if they've got a pickup truck then of course they can move that sofa for $20 bucks.

Apart from the other examples cited by others: back before paper checks completely vanished (mid 1990s) when I paid my housekeeper I used a special checkbook -- when she deposited the paycheck my taxes were paid automatically. Apart from that checks were already gone. Until the iPhone I could get a better mobile phone in Africa than I could buy in the US.

Paying all your bills is really complicated here, and full of hidden deceptive fees. Food is full of weird labels that don't let you know what you're eating. Send your kids to school -- my god, the TEACHERS pay for the kids' pens, and you have to send a huge number of things that were normally part of school (printer paper???). School lunches -- forget it! And working parents have to come help in school? WTF is up with that?

Buying a house -- what a nightmare (and a racket). This is one of the most corrupt systems in any country, but somehow the US adds insane complexity, at least in California. I have tried to explain this stuff to my kid who is going to university in the US but he doesn't see the point since he doesn't see much future here after graduation.

I could go on but it's too depressing. How about we talk about how people are willing to enthusiastically work for a startup even though chances are good it will go bust? That they will step up and take responsibility and complain less then most? That they are, in general, among the more law abiding people in the world? How great the national forests are? That the prices at the ski slopes are only outrageously high, but that I don't think anyone is trying to go beyond that to rip me off in a covert way?

I mean, living in the US is not much fun, but working sure is. And consider: some of my neighbors complain that poor Mexicans are driving poor "real Americans" out of work, that politicians are all corrupt and the economy is in tatters. A couple of years ago I flew to see my in laws in Germany and then my family in Australia (cheaper round the world ticket). In Germany, the richest country in Europe, the pub conversation was: poles were driving poor "real germans" out of work, that politicians were corrupt and the economy was in the toilet. When I got to Australia, in the pub I learned: that Vietnamese (or was it Indonesians?) were taking the work away from poor "real Australians", that the politicians were all corrupt, and that the economy was in the toilet (in something like the 20th consecutive year of expansion).

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