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Comment by TheChaplain | Hacker News Reader

Born and raised in northern Europe I find the US tipping culture weird. To me, tips are a bonus for service that goes above and beyond the expected.

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That's what it would be here, except that it was co-opted by the usual Horatio Alger types as a means to underpay for labor and hide that cost. Then, like so much, it just became "how it was done".

We're not bright, as a species.

>We're not bright, as a species

The people under paying labor would probably disagree with you.

Sure, they probably would, but would they be right? Are they getting the best for their not-dollar? 9/10 New restaurants fail after all... typically investing in a restaurant is a losing bet.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2015/10/service-comp...

But even more to your point... https://www.bna.com/no-tipping-fewer-b57982065202/

Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast when wages are so low. Bartenders are typically paid next to nothing and depend on tips, whereas in Europe they are paid a decent amount and don't need tips to get by.

Unfortunately US politics means this won't change any time soon. Evidently it's simpler for every American to carry around spare dollar bills every day than it is to pass meaningful legislation.

If Americans would stop tipping then the current wages would become untenable and the restaurants and bars would lose staff. They would need to increase wages (and prices) accordingly. This is something the American people have the power to change without legislation.

In a sense you are right, but practically speaking individuals can't morally unilaterally defect from tipping. When nearly everyone agrees that 15% is the tip for normal performance, and one person leaves 0% for normal performance, that one person is free-riding and effectively hurting an innocent victim.

One practical solution would be to close the minimum wage loophole for tipped employees. The difference between the two minima is the presumptive value of the normal tip, so this is a means by which you can coordinate an instant and universal change from relying on tips to having no reliance on tips. It's not exactly ideal, given that everyone knows waiters typically make a lot more in tips and evaded tax than that difference, but it is at least consistent and nominally fair.

I am not sure what other practical solutions you might have in mind.

I saw your reply right after I made mine... finally someone else who understands the problem of collective action!

How would they organize that sort of collective action? There are lots of people already who don't tip, but it hasn't changed anything. I can't control what the guy next to me does, only what I do. If I stop tipping, it only hurts the person serving me - it doesn't change the tipping culture.

I always find these sorts of arguments vexing - people act as if we can just 'decide' as a society to change something, and it is that simple. I can't 'decide' for society to do anything, unless we organize, coerce, and perhaps legislate.

America also pioneered the term 'unions'. The collective bargaining of those people has been lost for quite some time.

Sure, but in that window of time people who like paycheck to paycheck will suffer a sudden loss of income and likely slide into poverty. Which is why we take proactive political action. At least in theory, anyway.

There is a whole other inequity that arises out out of the ridiculous US tipping regime, I will quote restauranteur Danny Meter again:

"What is a tip? It’s a multiplier of menu pricing and as menu prices have gone up, so too has the multiplier over the course of my career which is now 30, 31 years.Tipped employees, happily for them, are making about 300 percent of what they were 31 years ago. During that same period, everyone in the kitchen — the dishwasher, non-tip eligible employees — have seen their hourly income go up about 20 percent."[1]

http://www.eater.com/2017/1/12/14250128/danny-meyer-tipping-...

It is indeed weird if not uncomfortable.

There's been an interesting move by Danny Meyer and Tom Colochio two well-known and very successful restaurateurs in New York City to abolish tips in favor of a flat service charge to be shared amongst everyone in the restaurant.

Danny Meyer talks about the history of tipping in the US in which he claims is rooted in post-Civil War racism and the old Pullman cars.

http://www.businessinsider.com/tipping-is-a-hoax-born-out-of...

Here is a link to the podcast:

http://www.sporkful.com/the-restaurateur-who-got-rid-of-tipp...

Interestingly enough the practice seems to have originated in Europe however before dying out:

https://www.fordfoundation.org/ideas/equals-change-blog/post...

Why even keep it as a service charge.. just put it into the price

I agree, why not just reflect the true price of eating a meal in a restaurant which includes paying servers.

My guess is that it is more transparent to both the customer and the staff who may view this development with some suspicion at first.

Because then you look more expensive compared to the pre-tip prices of other restaurants. As long as businesses can get away with posting prices that are less than what people actually have to pay, this silliness will continue.

Yep. For whatever reason, charging $50 for a restaurant outing and expecting a $10 tip gets perceived as being a better deal than a restaurant that charges $60 and does not allow tipping.

Born in the US and I find tip culture here weird. In fact I hate it. It has taken away the pleasure of giving a great tip to someone who really earned it.

Here's a brief clip from the 90s movie, Reservoir Dogs, that could shed some light: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ>

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