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This is exactly correct. Whats good about a startup is not living in a closet or getting to talk about how cool you are for living in a closet. That is exactly what is bad about the experience. Pretending it is good is roughly denial or some other similarly named vice.

Would you say the same thing about doing an Ironman, or climbing Mt Everest when you can just get helicoptered to the top?

Part of the attraction of doing things like these lies in proving to yourself that you can do it, and by doing this you fortify yourself mentally for the challenges that lie ahead.

Another result is that you become a "team" precisely because you have this shared experience. It's sort of like going through basic training in the military.

Software (and startups in general) doesn't get created because you're eating beans and rice, heated off a hot-plate, in the closet of your friends apartment.

I actually disagree with this. Living in near-poverty gives two distinct advantages:

- Reduced number of available ways to occupy your time.

- Visceral hunger to improve your situation.

I'm reminded of the Hikikomori thread here; these individuals withdraw from society because society gives them enough to survive and be entertained. If you withdrew their preferred method of passing the time -- say you can live alone, but no video games -- I suspect many would lead a different lifestyle.

So you could plot people on a graph of the ambitiousness of how they would ideally like to spend their time vs how badly they want to get there. For the sake of discussion, let's say one of the axes goes:

- Books

- Video Games

- Travel, sports, friends

- Yachting

- Going to Mars

For me personally, I enjoy books, video games, travel, and friends, but these in a way seem "not enough" for me to lead a fulfilling life. So I'm making plans to do more.

Yacht-class recreation wasn't enough for Elon Musk, so now he's going to Mars.

In a way, startup poverty is an interesting motivational hack -- living well below your earning potential gives you the hunger, but you apply that hunger to something with a higher potential rate of return, instead of just getting a market-rate job.

I'm not saying that pursuing a startup is always a bad idea. I'm saying that romanticizing living in somebody else's closet as part of the startup journey is wrong.

They are rational, intelligent adults, and they don't need or want anyone to be outraged on their behalf.

I'm not sure where you got the impression he was outraged on their behalf. Clearly they were ok with it, but the person's point seems to be "don't get the wrong idea that living like this is good"

Why tell anyone how they should be living? Or look down on them for it? Or advise people that they should keep their head down and not chase their dreams (as in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13900883)?

What exactly were you going to do with your youth that was so much more interesting that you'd do that instead of creating your own business while having the full force of YC alums pushing you on?

If you want to do something else, great. It's perfectly ok to spend your youth however you want. There's nothing wrong with choosing a safe path.

But if people want to chase their dreams in irrational ways, then cheer for them!

I didn't say to not chase ones dreams. I said don't be a fool about it. There's no need to live like this to pursue a startup and I'll call out anyone I see romanticizing it as wrong 7 days a week.

> But if people want to chase their dreams in irrational ways, then cheer for them!

Everybody loves rooting for the crazy underdog but that doesn't mean we want people we care about to be in their situation. In a sibling comment someone referenced being an actor/waiter in Hollywood. I think it's a great non-tech example of reality vs romanticized "follow your dream" stories.

I'd rather be a fool than a cynic.

Not being a romantic is not remotely the same as being a cynic dude. Its actually obnoxious of you to suggest that they are the same thing. Most functioning people are not particularly romantic in my experience. Similarly, most (and I would include myself here) are not cynics.

Whatsmore, being a cynic is something that is often appropriate, particularly when dealing with wild romantics.

> Its actually obnoxious of you

Please abide by the rules here and don't be uncivil.

People are free to make an informed decision in either way, if you think im suggesting coercion youre misreading me.

But the key word is informed. Suggesting that it is normal or even broadly considered acceptable to live in a closet is a lie.

Encourage people however you like but if you need to lie to them then I'm absolutely not ok with it.

Who cares what's normal or acceptable, short of illegal?

Why not be crazy in your youth? It's your youth! Spend it however you want. Spend it in ways that you look back and don't regret having taken a safe path.

I don't think anyone is lying about anything. Everyone is extremely quick to point out that living in a closet isn't normal.

But it's awesome. They actually had the courage to do that. And that is wonderful, and worth celebrating.

They didn't give a damn what was normal and did whatever was pragmatic. I'm glad there are places like that in the world.

You're certainly missing my point here.

I added a bit to the end of my comment. It sounds like you're worried that people are lying to others, or are somehow acting in ways that are malicious. But all that's happening here is cheering for founders.

From personal experience its very possible to believe you are obliged to sacrifice your own well being, and you are obliged to be passionate about something. This is my motivation here.

Ah. Yeah, I can see that.

If the pressures are aligned too strongly in the other direction, and someone is feeling squeezed, they should focus on themselves and act accordingly. As you say, it's easy to forget that.

Can we see eye to eye that my stance is the same thing, but from the opposite direction? It's very possible to believe you're obliged to do the safe thing, to worry about whether you're supporting yourself or living up to your parents' expectations, and to think that you should suppress your dreams to appease others.

It's the path that society pushes you into by default, which is why it's worth being keenly aware of it and triple checking that you're ok with choosing it. Because you only get to make that choice once or at most a few times, often when you don't know any better.

Sure I can see that I guess.