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Comment by paganel | Hacker News Reader

I think the same way, as I'm my mid-30s and I've always only worked for small(ish) companies as a programmer ever since I dropped out of college, but I had a cultural shock recently, as a close friend of mine had to provide a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades when he recently got hired as a software architect by a medium-to-large software company (500+ devs based in several Eastern European cities). I found that crazy, I guess I'll stick to working at small companies for as long as they'll employ me.

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I've worked for several large companies in the US. I've never needed to provide college transcripts.

Further, after significant involvement in the interview and hiring process at my last position (a very large technology company), it's my belief that this would be counter-productive to most firms. Finding candidates that have the skillsets necessary, fit the culture, and perform well in the interviews is difficult enough.

It's more likely that an employer in Europe, or Asia will ask for this. If you were coming to the US on an H1B visa, you'll have to file paperwork as part of the credential evaluation. For me, this involved a third-party reviewing that my degree was equivalent to that from a US university.

Your comment on "fit the culture" can be considered somewhat offensive, and an indicator to candidates that they may want to consider other opportunities.

That's a normal phrase in America. And yeah it's a generic term that can encompass nearly anything.

A rather unfortunate one, at that, as it legitimizes all sorts of bias. At best, it's an intellectually lazy way to conceptualize a whole bundle of soft skills.

>A rather unfortunate one, at that, as it legitimizes all sorts of bias. At best, it's an intellectually lazy way to conceptualize a whole bundle of soft skills.

I think you're a ways off here. Culture is character (and not a "bundle of soft skills"). Some companies want candidates that value and empathize with customers. Others may want candidates that demonstrate integrity and ability to collaborate with others. Often, these values are codified as principals to work and measure by. When a candidate fails to demonstrate valued traits, or provides examples that are contrary to those values, that is "not a culture fit".

I think you and I largely agree. My point is that companies can avoid intellectual laziness by doing exactly what you just did: being clear about what specific skills and behaviors they value.

Because "culture", in vernacular, does not mean what you propose. Would you agree that it broadly consists ofthe shared history and norms that bind a group together socially? That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but it does implicitly defining other people as outsiders. When you add "fit", it can become exclusionary. That's what I mean by the term legitimizing bias.

My company was like they until they caught a guy lying about his degrees.

If he was doing the job and doing it well, I don't see why it's a big deal. Universities used to be where you had to go to learn something new, but with the internet, anyone can learn anything they choose to.

It does matter for some non-IT positions (economics, law) and big companies tend to create general rules (e.g. everyone has to prove he has degree he claims to have).

Plus, while it does not matter whether you have degree for programming, it does matter whether you lie about it.

In 20 years, I've never even been asked about my non-existent degree. Not even one time. I've mostly worked at 'big 5' companies, and their equivalents in the game industry.

This is my experience as well. Dimensions of character and past work are better indicators of good candidates. Degrees get little attention outside of college hiring.

My company verified my degrees. I know they did because I had graduated from a master's program around the same time I sent in the paperwork to HR, and they needed me to physically bring in my diploma as proof of graduation (the university records hadn't been updated in all systems yet).

I didn't need transcripts though. You don't need a transcript to verify that someone obtained a degree.

Counterpoint: when I was applying at Google they did ask for a full copy of my college transcript. Not sure how much weight it was given in the hiring decision, but it seemed important to the recruiter.

Interesting. Were you a recent grad? Were you based in the US?

I was about 2 years out of school, and yes, in the US.

They only do this for recent (past 2 years) grads, who have no work experience yet.

> I think the same way, as I'm my mid-30s and I've always only worked for small(ish) companies as a programmer ever since I dropped out of college, but I had a cultural shock recently, as a close friend of mine had to provide a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades when he recently got hired as a software architect by a medium-to-large software company (500+ devs based in several Eastern European cities).

Just a guess but I'd say they've been burned in the past by people lying about their transcripts (class/grade history) and as a result they ask for it going forward. Either that or overzealous HR trying creating more work and process.

I've never heard of a company in the USA asking for a transcript. I'm not aware of anyone asking for a copy of a diploma either. Though presumably if you lie about it on your employment application and they subsequently find out about it it'd be grounds for termination with cause.

> a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades

It's usually called a 'transcript' (in British English at least)

In American, too.

(That would be a hell of a strange thing for a potential employer to ask for here, too.)

AFAIK, it's normal for them to ask for official transcripts if you put "PhD" on your transcripts. (I hope they ask for proof of a MD, too...)

But yeah, at the same employer, they apparently don't ask for proof of a master's degree (or BS).

That's not necessarily because they require it, but simply a hr policy because he put them on his CV.

Some people lie about qualifications.

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