Google offers at least $880M to LG display for OLED investment
reuters.com
reuters.com
But recently I saw a 4K OLED TV from Samsung, and it stopped me in my tracks. Actually on two different occasions. I've never seen colors or pure black like that, and the clarity is just stunning. Anyway, this is just the first time I've ever felt the desire to save up and buy a new TV.
It would be nice if Apple started using OLED displays in iPhones, but I don't care so much about that. My iPhone 6S screen looks fine to me, and I don't feel any need to upgrade.
It's a shame. My iPhones still feel like a downgrade from my years old Note 3 (display-wise).
(Microsoft quit giving things away to consumers, is now pulling harder on enterprise teats.)
That said I suppose newer OLED screens do not have as many problems, but for a long time OLED screens were inferior to LCD screens, and were used only because they were capable of higher contrast ratios which made them much more appealing to the eye.
Lots of expensive looking big midrange phones suffer from this when I see people using phones in bars or public transport.
I guess that's just a regular LCD, but whatever they're doing, it looks amazing.
P.S. I also looked at the LG OLED TVs, but the picture didn't look as nice. Of course, it was probably just the demo video.
The Samsung you point at is one of the best of last years TVs, so yes, a very good picture. Only downside is that it is edge-lit, meaning that the brightness of light objects can bleed into the surrounding areas.
Where OLED shines though is the low-end, the blacks/dark scenes, where you can go very dark right next to very light.
source: I'm looking for a new TV, so of course have to do extensive research...
If it gets down to £1500 I'm gonna pick it up. I watch a lot of dark content and the OLED is amazing at showing it properly.
I'm looking at the LG E6 or Samsung KS8000 (which in the UK is the equivalent of the US KS9000) which are 2016 models, or the LG B7/C7 and Samsung Q7F series (2017 models).
One thing to note is that the OLEDs are seriously expensive. The smallest of the high-end ones run at £3k for a 55" set.
In the UK (with 20% VAT) this one seems to be about 2700 GBP:
https://pricespy.co.uk/product.php?p=3616500
I wonder what's going on here?
I would love OLED but burn in concerns me still. Maybe in a few years.
Special mention to Amazon's the Grand Tour. Available in 4k HDR some segments have the best quality video I've ever seen - sometimes the TV just looks like a window.
One thing that was off-putting: I'd noticed that the picture isn't perfectly square. Indeed, it seems that the TV warps the picture over time until you go through the one-hour-cleanup-thing in the settings. It's basically like oldschool degaussing, I gather.
But the color reproduction and contrast is amazing. My old 23" LCD TF panels just don't hold a candle.
But your comment now gives me pause – the picture warps over time? Do you have any sources on this so I can learn more?
My guess is that this is an artifact of some sort of 'motion control' or other processing the TV applies.
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1...
In other words, red, green and blue subpixels "wear out" at different rates over time as well as over the surface of the display.
This means that as time goes by you could have one corner of the display develop a green tint while the other corner goes red.
This might very well be one of those technologies that has all the makings of the greatest improvement in the field yet never gets there because of one nagging issue.
This could be fairly easily solved, although doing this in real time at 4K would require custom silicon.
At the most fundamental level you need three lookup tables with one entry per sub-pixel. On a 1920 x 1080 display that means a little over two million entries for each, R, G and B. In other words, six million entries.
Pixel period at 60Hz is going to be in the sub-10 ns range. This means you would need lookup table memory that can be randomly indexed and respond within less than 10 ns in order to be able to grab a correction value for each and every subpixel being displayed. Due to latency and other realities of DDR SDRAM this is impossible. DDR SDRAM does far better for burst access of sequential blocks of data within a row. It does not do well for fully random access of single memory locations. DDR4 can't do full random single location access at these data rates.
Wikipedia article on SDRAM basics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_dynamic_random-acc...
Other memory technologies (QDR SRAM and RLD RAM) do exist that can accomplish the above requirement. They are extremely expensive and so they are not commonly seen in products such as televisions.
Yes, custom chips or an FPGA would be required in order to manage the process.
Even then, the problem isn't resolved.
The next issue is one of differential quantization. Each subpixel is either going to be driven by an 8 or 10 bit data stream. I'll use 8 bits for this example.
Say a blue sub-pixel is 25% "worn out". Assuming a linear transfer function (it isn't) this means that in order for all other blue sub-pixels on the entire screen need to be limited to a max of 75% output in order to not be brighter than that one blue sub-pixel.
Yet, the problem doesn't end there.
We also need to knock down all red and green pixels to limit them to a maximum of 75% output. Why? Because, in order to make white light you now have to compensate all color channels, otherwise you'd have too much red and green against a weak blue output.
It very quickly becomes a lowest common denominator problem.
Going back to quantization. When we started with a fresh OLED display we had 256 levels from black to white. Now we are down to 192 due to the necessary compensation.
But, that's not all! There's more!
Let's say green sub-pixels on the opposite side of the screen have now "worn out" down to 60% max output. Now the entire screen needs to be brought down to this new limit. And total quantization levels are now down to 153.
The practical result of losing quantization levels is image degradation due to an inability to smoothly map input to output.
On first inspection this might seem to indicate that a high speed three channel lookup table isn't really necessary. If we trim the output of all pixels down to the worst case pixel, well, just adjust the entire display. Except this won't work. If you bring all pixels down to 60% you are also bringing down the bad pixels that could not produce full light output. The end results is that, yes, you do need a high speed lookup table in order to leave bad pixels alone (not quite) and adjust good pixels to match the bad pixels.
And yet, we are not done with this. There's a fundamental issue that hasn't been addressed, even after throwing all that technology at it: Calibration.
In order to be able to populate three lookup tables (red, green and blue) we need to be able to measure wear at the sub-pixel level. This is extremely time consuming and most definitely well outside the realm of consumers. At the factory? Sure. At home? Not likely. I can see gross measurement. For example, manually measure sixteen zones and accept the fact that the image might have visible color differences due to this. Or, maybe, use a high resolution sensor to measure a few hundred zones. And this is when, to reach for the popular saying, you start to find yourself up to your ass in alligators when all you wanted to do was drain the swamp.
Funny how things work.
EDIT: Forgot to add. A lifetime "on" time counter won't work. The degradation of OLED pixels isn't purely a function of time. You can end-up with pixels that have been active for exactly the same time and one is significantly brighter than the other. You have to measure.
I wish more effort was being made to have them more smoothly integrate into a livings space rather than remaining as a great, black square on the wall [0].
[0]www.dezeen.com/2017/03/14/yves-behar-design-samsung-television-look-like-frame-artwork-design-technology/
A large purchase of Samsung OLED displays would be a much more sensible move than an investment in manufacturing for a display tech which may not be around for long.
One explanation could be of necessity. Perhaps Google initially wanted to make a large purchase of Samsung or LG OLEDs, but neither may have the production capacity to fulfill the order. Samsung is already making 70-92 million OLED displays for a recent Apple order, and LG probably doesn't have the needed production capacity that Samsung already has at scale.
I feel this is just a sign Google is playing a bit of catch-up (maybe even a tiny bit of desperation) in getting curved OLED displays. There's only so much capacity available, with Samsung and Apple eating up most of what's coming out.
Even if a billion dollar check was cashed today, that will only bring online one plant, which won't be ready to ship products for a few months at best...
Supply-chain dominance wielded as a weapon.
Do you have sources for that?
To my knowledge, inorganic LEDs have the advantage now, but both technologies approach the same limits which means that in the long term both should deliver the same efficiency. In the long run I don't see a deciding difference here.
One major complication for OLEDs is processing and sealing because they tend to have a short lifetime for various reasons. This sounds simple but in practice it makes everything much more complicated.
They are however a bit more speculative than OLED. I was looking at an LG OLED television in Fry's (just $6K :-)) and the contrast is really nice. I bet it really pops in a low light room as well. So an 'in production' house vs a 'production hopefully in a year' house seems the more prudent bet?
And the other interesting bit is everyone is thinking phone, phone, phone. Why not a competitor to Surface Hub which appears to be making Microsoft a solid margin? Why not have a 'Google' TV which is just that, the entire screen and everything that hangs on the wall. You talk to it with Google Home, it shows stuff from the Internet and boring old TV shoes etc. The first Google TV effort was pretty doomed but maybe as a way to augment your TV (new YouTube TV is out), your phone, and your general notes place? That might be Google thinking the long game there.
Of course, numbers out suggest they might have sold around 2 million, which isn't that many, but still a step above Nexus, probably.
In my projects, for any frequency above 800Hz flickering wasn't observable, but still created nausea and headaches. Above 8000Hz nausea and headaches were gone.
Is there any objective research supporting this? I haven't heard of anyone doing simple blind testing or controlling for other factors.
To get 8-bit colors, with PWM, you need far higher refresh rates. For OLED, that’s 15.3 kHz minimum to get sRGB colors with PWM. If you only need to dim backlight, 4kHz is usually enough.
That’s all I can say about that.
That said, you were mentioning laptop displays, and the topic was OLED, that’s why I was mentioning why for OLED 60Hz is basically impossible.
And as the display of that Ideapad has around 50 brightness steps, you get a real refresh rate of about 1Hz. That’s insane.
As mentioned, I’ve tried this with the LEDs I’m using to light my room, and below a few kHz I get nausea, and so does the rest of my family.
I'm extremely sensitive to refresh rates. I used to have two gigantic ViewSonic CRT monitors on my desk along with special Matrox video cards so that I could have high refresh rates.
60Hz gave me whacking migraines. 72Hz was fatiguing but didn't give me migraines. 80Hz+ and I was just fine.
I haven't had a migraine due to refresh rates on digital displays ever. Not even for incredibly slow displays.
You can see that even with LCD monitors. LCD monitors with a LED backlight will have a display refresh (ie. how often the pixels can change color) of, say, 60 Hz but the LED backlight might be run at 4 to 8 KHz (ie. how often the whole backlight turns on and off to give different brightness levels).
A 60Hz LED display is usually driven by a 4 or 8kHz refresh crystal.
Not actually a problem for watch usability, but looks funny and takes away from the image of the pebble screen as a constant object. Can't vouch for how it affects phone usage.
'After Apple's Q1 earnings call in January, Apple COO Tim Cook told the press and analysts that the company had entered a $3.9 billion component supply deal in a key area that was "an absolutely fantastic use of Apple’s cash". Many speculated that, after flash storage supply deals and agreements, Apple identified high-resolution LCD displays as a key factor to iOS' devices manufacturing process. Back then, speculation and Tim Cook's own words suggested that Apple had entered a deal with three manufacturers, including Toshiba and Sharp. A month before the the Q1 financial results, Apple was indeed rumored to be discussing with Toshiba an investment in a new $1.19 billion factory -- the same that Nikkan Kogyo Shimbun is mentioning today. But at the same time, several reports suggested that Apple was also considering a second investment in a $1.2 billion facility from Sharp -- with over $60 billion in cash, a double investment in LCD manufacturing wouldn't have surprised anyone. But today's report seems to confirm that the deal with Sharp hasn't gone through, implying that Toshiba has been chosen as the only Japanese manufacturer of iPhone LCD screens.'
From: https://www.macstories.net/news/apple-investing-in-toshibas-...
Unless there's some groundbreaking tech that is a key differentiator for Apple (e.g. CPU/GPU), its better to NOT vertically integrate.
On the other hand, I would not expect Apple to farm out their software, OS, marketing, industrial design any time soon. Unlike the supporting value of LCDs these are all differentiators.
It's crazy that Google isn't investing that money in software. Unless it's a hedge.